Flames & Losing For Higher Draft Order.

[conundrumed]

I fail to see where EDM has done much to improve for the future.  This year is the closest to an honest attempt to improve.  Sign a "good" d-man.  Get a solid coach.  Bring in 2 new goalies to weed out the worst.  Bring in some vets that add some toughness.

 

Last year it was sell off whomever you can for a pick.  Every year it is the same thing.  Immediate results or sell off to remain in the bottom 5.   

While I agree, I don't anymore. The move to "fix" what was really wrong, the front end, has occurred. It was a long time coming. I believe Edmonton is getting better, Lowe left a lot of scar tissue though. I don't think Chiarelli is going to do an unload, he's doing a good building job right now imho.

When we trade Jbo and it doesn't fit your narrative, you cast it off as "odd".

 

[MOD EDITED]

Using Feaster as an example is probably not going to prove the point lol.

[travel_dude]

While I agree, I don't anymore. The move to "fix" what was really wrong, the front end, has occurred. It was a long time coming. I believe Edmonton is getting better, Lowe left a lot of scar tissue though. I don't think Chiarelli is going to do an unload, he's doing a good building job right now imho.

Using Feaster as an example is probably not going to prove the point lol.

 

I'm not sure they actually did anything to fix the problems on the front-end.  They added another 1st overall to their current list of 3.

They are using a top 5 pick and Eberle in their top 6.  So they are essentially using their drafted players and one FA signing to get them out of the basement. I don't think that addresses the problems they have, but that may be just me. 

 

They lack anything better than a 2nd pairing guy on most teams.  The only reason they have won any games is due to outstanding play by a goalie.  Yak is nothing without Roy or McDavid to help drive the play or set him up for a tap in.  Hall is a puckhog.  It's hard to get a read on Draisaitl, since he is playing on the top line.  He looks like he has some tools, but I can't say he is that good yet.    

[conundrumed]

I'm not sure they actually did anything to fix the problems on the front-end.  They added another 1st overall to their current list of 3.

They are using a top 5 pick and Eberle in their top 6.  So they are essentially using their drafted players and one FA signing to get them out of the basement. I don't think that addresses the problems they have, but that may be just me. 

 

They lack anything better than a 2nd pairing guy on most teams.  The only reason they have won any games is due to outstanding play by a goalie.  Yak is nothing without Roy or McDavid to help drive the play or set him up for a tap in.  Hall is a puckhog.  It's hard to get a read on Draisaitl, since he is playing on the top line.  He looks like he has some tools, but I can't say he is that good yet.    

You are such a homer, nothing personal.

By front end I mean when you hire Chiarelli, he's not a Lowe puppet, and if you hire McLellan as a coach you're pretty darned ensured things start happening for a reason. 

[travel_dude]

You are such a homer, nothing personal.

By front end I mean when you hire Chiarelli, he's not a Lowe puppet, and if you hire McLellan as a coach you're pretty darned ensured things start happening for a reason. 

 

I think Nicholson is the only reason why they made any changes this season.  He was the guy that talked about bringing in Chia and sought out McLellan.  Both were solid moves forward from the Dynasty people.  But, by the same token, VAN has added a new GM and coach, and will be wandering the desert.  

[conundrumed]

I think Nicholson is the only reason why they made any changes this season.  He was the guy that talked about bringing in Chia and sought out McLellan.  Both were solid moves forward from the Dynasty people.  But, by the same token, VAN has added a new GM and coach, and will be wandering the desert.  

If it is in fact the same token, the Oilers should feel pretty confident in moving the Sedins to 2nd line duties.....

[AlbertaBoy12]

 

[MOD EDITED]

How can you say that?

[darth_henning]

To me the difference is this: 

 

Rebuilding is trading/releasing players on the upper end of the age spectrum in an attempt to return a young player who will help you in the next couple years, while retaining good mid-20s and younger players who are good now or improving and still trying to be as competitive as possible, even if you wind up losing. 

 

eg. post-Iginla trade, we still kept players around like Hudler, Backlund, Gio and Brodie who were younger and fighting to be productive and still fought to win games. 

 

Tanking is releasing most to all of the good players you have and deliberately trying to play as badly as possible. 

 

Eg. Buffalo was deliberately cheering for losses and traded away good goaltenders and forwards last year in the race to reach McDavid. 

 

 

The point is how MUCH you give away and how you play after. 

 

 

Edmonton can't really be said to have deliberately tanked. They've tried to rebuild, but just suck. 

[jjgallow]

When we trade Jbo and it doesn't fit your narrative, you cast it off as "odd".

 

[MOD EDITED]

 

I feel an obligation to identify this as "odd" (to say the least).

 

It goes without saying that this isn't an appropriate analogy, and it should also go without saying that this is simply wrong.  We could always discuss on another thread (or forum).  But it is sad if that is necessary.

[Flyerfan52]

When we trade Jbo and it doesn't fit your narrative, you cast it off as "odd".

 

[MOD EDITED]

Peeps, that has no place in a thread about hockey. There are other threads for political views & I'm sure most of us would appreciate you keeping them there. You know better.

 

I'm well aware you are an admin but even so there is a time & place for those views. Censure me if you wish but I think that especially as an admin you should know the difference. I'll await a PM either banning me or appologizing.

[AlbertaBoy12]

Peeps, that has no place in a thread about hockey. There are other threads for political views & I'm sure most of us would appreciate you keeping them there. You know better.

 

I'm well aware you are an admin but even so there is a time & place for those views. Censure me if you wish but I think that especially as an admin you should know the difference. I'll await a PM either banning me or appologizing.

Truth.

[SiouX_17]

When we trade Jbo and it doesn't fit your narrative, you cast it off as "odd".

 

[MOD EDITED]

it`s actually called "installing democracy"

[The_People1]

How can you say that?

I feel an obligation to identify this as "odd" (to say the least).

 

It goes without saying that this isn't an appropriate analogy, and it should also go without saying that this is simply wrong.  We could always discuss on another thread (or forum).  But it is sad if that is necessary.

Peeps, that has no place in a thread about hockey. There are other threads for political views & I'm sure most of us would appreciate you keeping them there. You know better.

 

I'm well aware you are an admin but even so there is a time & place for those views. Censure me if you wish but I think that especially as an admin you should know the difference. I'll await a PM either banning me or appologizing.

 

Admittedly, a horrible analogy in hindsight.  No offense was intended so my sincere apologies for anyone who was offended by my comments. 

[Flyerfan52]

Admittedly, a horrible analogy in hindsight.  No offense was intended so my sincere apologies for anyone who was offended by my comments. 

I'm sure it was a momentary lapse & we all have those. I didn't believe you meant to offend but figured I'd point out we are all held to certain standards. We're friends here that care about the Flaming "C".

Apology accepted & lets talk hockey in the hockey threads.

 

Separation of enjoyment & politics if you will.

[DirtyDeeds]

As the Flames seem to be distancing themselves from a playoff spot it is a good time to remind a few that the game of hockey should not be played for the purpose of getting high draft picks.

[bronco73]

As the Flames seem to be distancing themselves from a playoff spot it is a good time to remind a few that the game of hockey should not be played for the purpose of getting high draft picks.

Well said... I'm sure you know my pain

 

Play to win, regardless of your place in the standings or how difficult the road ahead is.  Losing should NEVER be an option.

[travel_dude]

As the Flames seem to be distancing themselves from a playoff spot it is a good time to remind a few that the game of hockey should not be played for the purpose of getting high draft picks.

 

Any trades I hope for are for the now and future.  I don't believe in trading away talent for the purposes of losing.  If anything, we tend to see guys coming in with a fire in their bellies, wanting to set the league on fire.  The current team appears at times to be content to score 3 or 4 goals and stop or give up when down by a few in the 3rd.  Whether that is coaching to protect the lead or the high from getting a lead wearing off or simply being frustrated with going down by 3 goals and giving up, I don't know.  As a fan. I hate losses more than anything.  I get mad at the team for looking half interested.  I hate the usage of some players because it looks like favourtism or trying to showcase a player or just icing a truculent team. 

[The_People1]

As the Flames seem to be distancing themselves from a playoff spot it is a good time to remind a few that the game of hockey should not be played for the purpose of getting high draft picks.

 

Non-weighted draft lottery for all teams that miss the playoffs.

 

May that day be before us sooner rather than later.

[robrob1974]

I still think they should weight the balks evenly for five teams fighting for 1st overall, then weighted the same from 6-10, and 11-14. The balls come out and it's anyone's guess who drafts where. Have all the balls in the same machine and maybe some of the less weighted balls make it higher.

[cccsberg]

The Oilers have proven that luck or continuous abysmal play should not be the deciding factor in top-level talent distribution in the league.     Strategic incompetence should not be rewarded by the NHL by continuous high draft picks.  There should be controls in place to ensure a more even distribution amongst all the lower level/non-performing teams.  I would recommend  a once in 5 years top-3 lottery eligibility (i.e. ineligible for 5 years after a 1st OA win).  

[robrob1974]

I still think they should weight the balls in groups but pick them out as they come. A 14th could essentially win it, but is still weighted out, but they pull all of the balls out of the machine. Can you all Imagine the suspense of which ball comes next?

Or they weight them in groups of 3's or 4's. But throw all of the balls in the machine.

[The_People1]

The Oilers have proven that luck or continuous abysmal play should not be the deciding factor in top-level talent distribution in the league.     Strategic incompetence should not be rewarded by the NHL by continuous high draft picks.  There should be controls in place to ensure a more even distribution amongst all the lower level/non-performing teams.  I would recommend  a once in 5 years top-3 lottery eligibility (i.e. ineligible for 5 years after a 1st OA win).  

I still think they should weight the balls in groups but pick them out as they come. A 14th could essentially win it, but is still weighted out, but they pull all of the balls out of the machine. Can you all Imagine the suspense of which ball comes next?

Or they weight them in groups of 3's or 4's. But throw all of the balls in the machine.

 

Weighing in groups is still rewarding certain teams over others for losing.  Non-weighted is the most ideal way to go.

 

Rewarding the worst team in the league with the highest draft pick was an old method used to create parity in the league back in the day.  Since the league introduced the salary cap system though, the salary cap has effectively become the great equalizer.  Just think about the Chicago Blackhawks potential roster had there not been a cap.... Toews, Kane, Hossa, Sharp, Ladd, Brouwer, Frolik, Saad, Versteeg, Byfuglien, Keith, Seabrook, Hjarlmarsson, Oduya, Leddy, and add Panarin... man.  All that and they would most likely target Steven Stamkos this summer.

 

Instead, half of these players were forced onto the UFA market to help create parity across the league and the worst team in the league has an equal chance like everybody else to sign a player like Sharp, Ladd, Saad, etc.  Therefore, any team that misses the playoffs should have equal chance to draft #1 overall.  The first 14 picks should be established via a non-weighted lottery.

 

The Leafs have entered full tank mode.  Leaf fans are cheering for Auston Matthews.  Is this what the league wants?  Instead, the Leafs and their fans could be trying and cheering to win right down to the very last game of the season and STILL draft Auston Matthews.  THAT's what it should be about.  Rewarding teams for winning to the very last game of the season rather than tossing the season and cheering for the best lotto odds.

[robrob1974]

Weighing in groups is still rewarding certain teams over others for losing. Non-weighted is the most ideal way to go.

Rewarding the worst team in the league with the highest draft pick was an old method used to create parity in the league back in the day. Since the league introduced the salary cap system though, the salary cap has effectively become the great equalizer. Just think about the Chicago Blackhawks potential roster had there not been a cap.... Toews, Kane, Hossa, Sharp, Ladd, Brouwer, Frolik, Saad, Versteeg, Byfuglien, Keith, Seabrook, Hjarlmarsson, Oduya, Leddy, and add Panarin... man. All that and they would most likely target Steven Stamkos this summer.

Instead, half of these players were forced onto the UFA market to help create parity across the league and the worst team in the league has an equal chance like everybody else to sign a player like Sharp, Ladd, Saad, etc. Therefore, any team that misses the playoffs should have equal chance to draft #1 overall. The first 14 picks should be established via a non-weighted lottery.

The Leafs have entered full tank mode. Leaf fans are cheering for Auston Matthews. Is this what the league wants? Instead, the Leafs and their fans could be trying and cheering to win right down to the very last game of the season and STILL draft Auston Matthews. THAT's what it should be about. Rewarding teams for winning to the very last game of the season rather than tossing the season and cheering for the best lotto odds.

You need to give the bottom of the league a chance to rebuild their team. By weighting the balls evenly for the bottom five teams it gives all of them a chance at the #1 pick. Then weight the next five teams that didn't make the playoffs evenly and it gives teams who would pick 6-10th overall a chance to win or lose to move up or down the draft. And the last teams that didn't make it get another weight but still get a chance. But it will move everyone around.

The weights could be slight, so you can still have that parity in the lottery. It would make for great tv on lottery day too, to pull all of the balls out.

[Kulstad]

The Leafs Flames have entered full tank mode.  Leaf Flame fans are cheering for Auston Matthews.  Is this what the league wants?  Instead, the Leafs Flames and their fans could be trying and cheering to win right down to the very last game of the season and STILL draft Auston Matthews.  THAT's what it should be about.  Rewarding teams for winning to the very last game of the season rather than tossing the season and cheering for the best lotto odds.

 

Fixed that for you to fit into your "Flames should tank for best draft pick" philosophy

[The_People1]

You need to give the bottom of the league a chance to rebuild their team. By weighting the balls evenly for the bottom five teams it gives all of them a chance at the #1 pick. Then weight the next five teams that didn't make the playoffs evenly and it gives teams who would pick 6-10th overall a chance to win or lose to move up or down the draft. And the last teams that didn't make it get another weight but still get a chance. But it will move everyone around.

The weights could be slight, so you can still have that parity in the lottery. It would make for great tv on lottery day too, to pull all of the balls out.

 

The bottom five does have a chance to rebuild their team.  It's just, they aren't guaranteed a top pick.  They have an "equal" chance as any other team that missed the playoffs to seed in the top 14.  Just like they have an equal chance to sign any UFA that hits the market.  Non-weighted lottery would not prevent teams from improving.

Fixed that for you to fit into your "Flames should tank for best draft pick" philosophy

 

In case you missed my point in this year long thread, I don't like how the league lays the carrot on the stick for losing.  It needs to stop.  It's wrong and should be corrected.

[Kulstad]

Fixed that for you to fit into your "Flames should tank for best draft pick" philosophy

 

 

In case you missed my point in this year long thread, I don't like how the league lays the carrot on the stick for losing.  It needs to stop.  It's wrong and should be corrected.

 

In that case, you're talking out of both sides of your face at once.  On one side, you suggest and advocate for tanking (in fairness, you suggest it in a "take advantage of the current system" way), and on the other side you say "it needs to stop.  It's wrong and should be corrected."