Flames & Losing For Higher Draft Order.

[Carty]

Maybe we need a plumber...   The toilet seems to be out of order...   How many times do I need to try and flush this thing?...  

 

[Wreckening]

[Krule]

And after 33 pages dedicated to this topic, I think it's a pretty safe bet to say we're at an impasse folks. Some will never be convinced that this isn't anything more than a tank job. And there are those who are convinced (me included) we are not tanking, but progressing forward by addressing our current needs without sacrificing the future. Let's remember that this is based solely on our perception of what has transpired so far since the season ended. I don't have a magic 8 ball and I have no idea what the team will look like on opening night. Funny thing is, neither does anyone else. 

[phoenix66]

And after 33 pages dedicated to this topic, I think it's a pretty safe bet to say we're at an impasse folks. Some will never be convinced that this isn't anything more than a tank job. And there are those who are convinced (me included) we are not tanking, but progressing forward by addressing our current needs without sacrificing the future. Let's remember that this is based solely on our perception of what has transpired so far since the season ended. I don't have a magic 8 ball and I have no idea what the team will look like on opening night. Funny thing is, neither does anyone else. 

i think the big problem is that really, we are all saying the same thing but taking a different view of it. when the decision was made to scrap it and purge off Iggy, Jbo, , attempt to trade Kipper and such, we were , in effect , tanking.. we knew and accepted that we were no longer a "team on the edge" and were accepting relegation to also-ran status for a number of years. the only thing in question is whether we were going to level out and begin our ascent as fast as possible, or plunge it into the lake and rebuild the plane from spare parts.

 

I look at last year.. what should have been the low point of the franchise..

 

we had 2 unproven goalies and a career backup in net .

this year, we start with the best of last year, a proven starter quality backup, who i will guarantee right now will win more than Berra and Jmac did last year combined,  as well as a prospect close to making the jump....goaltending = improved 

 

on defence we had Gio.. and a promising TJ Brodie...and Butler..Gio went down , would have been the perfect time to allow a tank, fully excusable.. but we went and got Smid.. he filled in admirably for Gio, but then when he came back we went on a winning streak.. outside of Gio, nobody on that defence knew how to make a hit , forwards could have carried eggs in their pockets and not broken them coming into our zone ... did we rest on that ?.. no we went out and got Engelland.. is he the next coming of Regehr?>.. no .. does he improve our defense..yes.. add in the continued progress of Wotherspoon, perhaps the arrival of Seiloff, as well as the (so far) walkaway from Butler(who even i can say had improved , but was definitely at his celing ). then you can say defense = improved

 

Forwards.. yes we lost Cammy, no Raymond is not Cammy, but he does stay healthy and playing higher line minutes will get you 20-25 goals this year .. hopefully a year of Glencross, the emergence of Monahan, addition of Johnny and Maybe Bennett.. replacing Westgarth with a better player and still just as much of a tough guy in Bolig = improvement.. in the big picture i'll just avoid the next debate and say forwards=Neutral

 

this to me , is not a "tank".. we have no desire to Gun for that 1 or 2 draft spot.. if we did, we would not have made these changes.. our intent is to pick better than 4th this time.. do they believe they are a playoff team ? absolutely not.. but they will play and be driven like they are .

 

now lets look at some tank jobs..

 

Edmonton:.. they purged their team.. stockpiled picks and there them onto the ice and told them to go have fun.. all the while spouting " its ok .. we're rebuilding .. no pressure"  and would still be doing it to this day if the natives didnt start getting restless and start revolting.. so now they have started "getting serious"

 

Colorado: .. i dint care what anybody says.. they tanked for Nathan. with essentially the same team that was looking like a cup contender this year, they wallowed through bad coaching .. lackluster play, inept management and stayed the course until they won the lottery and chose McKinnon.. sorry , they were tanking

 

and the mother of them all....

 

Buffalo:  This is a team i dont think is even trying to hide the fact they are out for Connor. they stockpile the picks.. have made 0 effort to incorporate or develop the kids into team. They WALKED AWAY from Erhoff, who at worst would have fetched a decent pick at the deadline, all because " he didnt want to be here".. great, if thats the case he'd likely waive his NMC next season.. Even Ryan Miller didnt make this team look good. You just watch, they'll put every possible Rookie in the lineup next year..this team will make the Oilers make the OIlers look like contenders.They have a ton of cap space.. could have easily been in on the big names..nope.. not a peep ..except resigning Moulson. which i think had more to do with Moulson than Buffalo

 

Mark my prediction now.. this team will get Connor..and suddenly be the Colorado of the 2015-2016 season

 

in short (ok , i realise its too late for that , but...)

If this were a Tank.. id have expected a no name backup goalie, or even Ortios promotion..sign a couple grinders(only).. give Butler a raise and 2-3 years,, No Mason Raymond..no attempt to resign Cammy(I dont fault the team for not giving 5 years)

based on teams around us this year, we may very well end up bottom 3, hard to say..but it wont be due to "gunning for McDavid"

The best players in Camp will make this team..the best will get the ice time..and if holes show up you will see them filled...moves will be made that will likely cost us draft position .. thats just evolution , not a tank..

[Flyerfan52]

phoenix66, I won't argue most of your points but will mention the Ehrhoff buyout was due to possible recapture penalties if retained or traded. @ 32 with 7 years left on a front loaded contract if he retired @ any time they face a big hit as they'd already reaped any benifit in the 1st 2 years. Said hit would come as their recent picks came off EL so using the compliance buyout in the last year possible was good management.

 

It seems Ehrhoff liked it in Buffalo but a boughtout player can't sign with the team that bought him out for 1 year. So he signs a 1 year @ his old hit with a team that isn't far away distance wise. Made me go "hmm?".

 

Buffalo might well take a page out of Pittsburgh's book (they wrote it) & add MacDavid or 1 or the other top 3s & have an Avalanche type rejuvenation & will need a defenseman when the Meszaros contract expires @ the end of the season.

 

[Zirakzigil]

phoenix66, I won't argue most of your points but will mention the Ehrhoff buyout was due to possible recapture penalties if retained or traded. @ 32 with 7 years left on a front loaded contract if he retired @ any time they face a big hit as they'd already reaped any benifit in the 1st 2 years. Said hit would come as their recent picks came off EL so using the compliance buyout in the last year possible was good management.

 

It seems Ehrhoff liked it in Buffalo but a boughtout player can't sign with the team that bought him out for 1 year. So he signs a 1 year @ his old hit with a team that isn't far away distance wise. Made me go "hmm?".

 

Buffalo might well take a page out of Pittsburgh's book (they wrote it) & add MacDavid or 1 or the other top 3s & have an Avalanche type rejuvenation & will need a defenseman when the Meszaros contract expires @ the end of the season.

 

Its also been rumored that the Pens and Ehrhoff have a verbal extension agreed upon and are just waiting to see what the cap is next year. 

[quinneroma77]

Based on optimistic goal scoring projections:

 

 

1. Glencross, 25 g

2. Monahan, 25 g

3. Colborne, 17 g

4. Hudler, 20 g

5. Stajan, 18 g

6. Giordano, 15g

7. Backlund, 20g

8. Raymond, 22g

8. Bollig, 10g

9. Jones/Byron/Bouma/McGrattan, 25g combined

10. Rest of D, 20g

11. Call-ups, young guys, other 15g combined

 

Total = 232 = 2.82 goals per game    Last year, we scored 209.  This kind of output definitely puts us in the mix for the playoffs, with a better goalie (Hiller) and a healthier team, this isn't any form of a tank.  While these numbers are realistically optimistic based on health mostly, and a scoring by committee approach, every player on that list has proven capable of putting up those numbers.  

[robrob1974]

Based on optimistic goal scoring projections:

 

 

1. Glencross, 25 g

2. Monahan, 25 g

3. Colborne, 17 g

4. Hudler, 20 g

5. Stajan, 18 g

6. Giordano, 15g

7. Backlund, 20g

8. Raymond, 22g

8. Bollig, 10g

9. Jones/Byron/Bouma/McGrattan, 25g combined

10. Rest of D, 20g

11. Call-ups, young guys, other 15g combined

 

Total = 232 = 2.82 goals per game    Last year, we scored 209.  This kind of output definitely puts us in the mix for the playoffs, with a better goalie (Hiller) and a healthier team, this isn't any form of a tank.  While these numbers are realistically optimistic based on health mostly, and a scoring by committee approach, every player on that list has proven capable of putting up those numbers.  

 

Defencemen hardly ever score. I'd minus that to anywhere in-between 10-15 goals combined, with call-ups getting about 10-15 goals. I can't see Bollig scoring 10, but that's just me. Not that I know him that well. 

 

This will be mine then:

 

Glencross 23

Monahan 20

Colborne 15

Hudler 20

Stajan 16

Giordano 12

Backlund 20

Raymond 20

Jones 15

Byron 10

Brodie 8

Bouma, McGrattan, Bollig 15

Rest of D 5

Call-ups 15

 

That gives us 214 goals. A 5 goal improvement. Monahan may have the sophomore jinx going on this year, but give or take a few on his totals. From all accounts last year, I still don't know what we have in him. He was good. But he is still developing. I hope we don't see that regression, and that we see improvement on his stats.

 

I don't think we're anywhere near a playoff team. 

[travel_dude]

Defencemen hardly ever score. I'd minus that to anywhere in-between 10-15 goals combined, with call-ups getting about 10-15 goals. I can't see Bollig scoring 10, but that's just me. Not that I know him that well. 

 

This will be mine then:

 

Glencross 23

Monahan 20

Colborne 15

Hudler 20

Stajan 16

Giordano 12

Backlund 20

Raymond 20

Jones 15

Byron 10

Brodie 8

Bouma, McGrattan, Bollig 15

Rest of D 5

Call-ups 15

 

That gives us 214 goals. A 5 goal improvement. Monahan may have the sophomore jinx going on this year, but give or take a few on his totals. From all accounts last year, I still don't know what we have in him. He was good. But he is still developing. I hope we don't see that regression, and that we see improvement on his stats.

 

I don't think we're anywhere near a playoff team. 

Think you may be a little low on  the goals scored by the D.  Wideman tends to be around 8-10 for a full season.  Russell would probably be around 7.  Brodie was 4 in an emerging season, so 8 might be reasonable (think it's low).  Gio was 14 in a shortened season.

 

With the forwards, you are underestimating the call-ups.  If Johnny can play in the NHL, he will get at least 15 goals.  Granlund has shown the skills to equal that over 40-80 games.  If Sven plays, then he gets back to a scoring rate of about 12-15 goals for the season.  The other forwards are probably close to the actuals, though.

 

The goal differential will be more telling though.  If Hiller and Ramo can combine for at least a .915 SV%, that cuts into the differential.

Don't expect a playoff team, but at this point I just can't see a bottom 3; too many teams have done little to improve, are still in the stages of suck/rebuild, or have gotten worse (Arizona, Buffalo, Winnipeg, FLA, Van). 

[calgary1233]

no way the flames should tank first of all its no fun losing and especially to rivals like the oilers and canucks and the lames re a really hardworking team there not tanking

[The_People1]

Based on optimistic goal scoring projections:

 

 

1. Glencross, 25 g

2. Monahan, 25 g

3. Colborne, 17 g

4. Hudler, 20 g

5. Stajan, 18 g

6. Giordano, 15g

7. Backlund, 20g

8. Raymond, 22g

8. Bollig, 10g

9. Jones/Byron/Bouma/McGrattan, 25g combined

10. Rest of D, 20g

11. Call-ups, young guys, other 15g combined

 

Total = 232 = 2.82 goals per game    Last year, we scored 209.  This kind of output definitely puts us in the mix for the playoffs, with a better goalie (Hiller) and a healthier team, this isn't any form of a tank.  While these numbers are realistically optimistic based on health mostly, and a scoring by committee approach, every player on that list has proven capable of putting up those numbers.  

 

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/globe-on-hockey/red-wings-sens-lead-nhl-in-games-lost-to-injury/article10447942/

 

In a typical 82-game season, teams generally average roughly around three man-games lost per team, a figure that teams would likely reach due to season-ending injuries if there were more games played.

 

So if you take 3 guys off your list, the Flames risk to lose between 20 to 40 goals over the course of a regular season (depending on the call-up's ability to replace those goals.)  Your numbers are admittedly optimistic to begin with. 

 

You may also want to take a look at this,

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagues/seasons/teams/0000432014.html

 

Only ONE player on the Flames this year scored 20-goals last season.

[robrob1974]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/globe-on-hockey/red-wings-sens-lead-nhl-in-games-lost-to-injury/article10447942/

 

 

 

So if you take 3 guys off your list, the Flames risk to lose between 20 to 40 goals over the course of a regular season (depending on the call-up's ability to replace those goals.)  Your numbers are admittedly optimistic to begin with. 

 

You may also want to take a look at this,

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagues/seasons/teams/0000432014.html

 

Only ONE player on the Flames this year scored 20-goals last season.

 

Not to mention that other teams are going to be on to the Flames' work ethic which might mean they will come in to play the Flames even harder. 

[travel_dude]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/globe-on-hockey/red-wings-sens-lead-nhl-in-games-lost-to-injury/article10447942/

 

 

 

So if you take 3 guys off your list, the Flames risk to lose between 20 to 40 goals over the course of a regular season (depending on the call-up's ability to replace those goals.)  Your numbers are admittedly optimistic to begin with. 

 

You may also want to take a look at this,

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagues/seasons/teams/0000432014.html

 

Only ONE player on the Flames this year scored 20-goals last season.

All valid points, which is why projecting the goals for/against is a fool's errand.  All teams will suffer the same loss of scoring or preventing goals, depending on their rosters and injuries.

 

I tend to think goaltending and defense will have a bigger impact on this season.  This season we should have at least league-average goaltending.  Hiller should be better than the JoeyMac/Berra combo of backups.  Ramo should be somewhere between the end-of-season and the transition-to-the-NHL results.  Smid can't be as bad as he looked last year; if he is, then T-Spoon get the call.  Wideman should rebound from his post-injury body of work.  Gio and Bordie should be as good as last year; even if Gio regresses a bit, Brodie is still getting better.

 

Taking into account the number of close games (29 1-goal games?), we should be better than last year.  If you look at the teams that we below us or close to us, they haven't really gotten better.

 

Buffalo - hard to improve that much in a single year; 52 points last year - might see them get an additional 20 points at best

Florida - do they have enough to finally compete? Last season their player with the highest points only had 38.

Edmonton - if they don't get 20 more points then they are a complete failure.  That is still just 87 points.

Winnipeg - they have not gotten any better and still could lose Kane.

Ottawa - tank in the making - lost some of their top players; they will probably trade Bobby Ryan at TDL.

 

That's 4 teams right there that could be (a lot) worse than the Flames, and one that is iffy.  Arizona and Nashville could be in that boat as well.

[The_People1]

All valid points, which is why projecting the goals for/against is a fool's errand.  All teams will suffer the same loss of scoring or preventing goals, depending on their rosters and injuries.

 

I tend to think goaltending and defense will have a bigger impact on this season. 

 

Agreed, you can't just look at scoring alone and think a team would rise or fall in the standings.  You have to look at both sides of the equation.  Also, Cammalleri leaves with 16 assists.  That means 16 Flames goals may not have happened had Cammalleri not touched the puck prior to their goals.

 

But yes, goaltending should be better.  Berra was an experiment that cost the Flames at least 5-points in the standings.  Ramo was also shakey at various points of last season before stabilizing near the end.  Hiller "should be" better than Macdonald and Berra as back-up but Hiller also played himself off the Ducks roster last season so he's not at the right side of the development curve.  He's on the downhill.  We'll have to see but there's potential for better goaltending for sure because at the end of the day, Ramo + Hiller may still be one of the worst tandems in the NHL.

 

I'll also add that Engellend may turn out to be a complete non-factor this season much like Shane O'Brien.  That means one of Russell, Smid, or Wotherspoon may be forced to the right side and play at half effectiveness.  Yes it's hopeful Brodie will continue to emerge as a legitimate top pair guy.  Giordano and Wideman has to stay healthy as well which has been difficult given both players's styles.

 

Still, the Flames boast one of the worst first lines in the NHL.  With Cammalleri, the Flames were two players short of having a legitimate first line.  Now, the Flames are missing three forwards for a legitimate first line.  Basically, Flames have three solid NHL caliber 2nd lines that can compete with any other team's 2nd/3rd lines but there's no answer for a first line. 

 

At the very least,

Nashville has James Neal

Ottawa has Ryan and Michalek

Winnpeg has Kane

Edmonton has Hall

 

Buffalo may be the only team without a legimate first line player on their forward group.

 

I know the counter argument would be that the Flames have Monahan, Gaudreau, and possibly Baertschi, Bennett, etc who could emerge as 30-goal scorers.  Well, Buffalo, Florida, and Edmonton have an even more impressive group of young kids. 

 

Buffalo - hard to improve that much in a single year; 52 points last year - might see them get an additional 20 points at best

Florida - do they have enough to finally compete? Last season their player with the highest points only had 38.

Edmonton - if they don't get 20 more points then they are a complete failure.  That is still just 87 points.

Winnipeg - they have not gotten any better and still could lose Kane.

Ottawa - tank in the making - lost some of their top players; they will probably trade Bobby Ryan at TDL.

 

That's 4 teams right there that could be (a lot) worse than the Flames, and one that is iffy.  Arizona and Nashville could be in that boat as well.

 

No question, those who want the Flames to be dead last in the league will be in tough because Buffalo has such a sad roster.  I think the best the Flames can do is second worst in the league which puts them in a good lottery spot to claim the #1 pick.

 

Florida - Luongo is a potential game changer.  Other than that, the D and F are comparable to the Flames.  Lots of 2nd/3rd line character guys and lots of young stars who are still too young to make a difference on a consistent basis.  I think FLA will be one of the worst 4 teams in the league.

 

Edmonton - Ever since the Oilers traded Dubnyk, they have been on par with the Flames.  I think they made good moves in the off-season starting with the Purcell/Gagner trade.  The Oilers still aren't playoff caliber but they are better than a Flames team without Cammalleri.

 

Winnipeg - They must keep Kane.  After that, if Scheifele and Trouba stay healthy all season, then i think the Jets have a legitimate shot at the playoffs.  They are not a bottom 5 team in a wide open Eastern Conference.

 

Ottawa - Some very good young players who i think need 2 to 3 years.  Much like the Flames.  But they do have Norris Dman Karlsson and Craig Anderson who keeps them in every game.

 

Arizona - I think you are reaching a bit trying to consider the Coyotes a team that could challenge for the worst in the league.  They have one of the best bluelines in the NHL and Mike Smith is a perfect goalie for their system.  They lack offense up front but they score from their D.  They may not be a playoff team but they are not one of the worst either.  Certainly better than the Flames.

 

Nashville - Weber, Rinne, and Neal give the Preds some legitimacy.  Very similar to when the Flames recently had Bouwmeester, Kiprusoff, and Iginla.  There's enough came changers to win them out of the basement but not enough all around to get them into the playoffs.  The Preds aren't challenging for the worst in the league.

 

NY Islanders - Tavares has bad knees and the Islanders have one of the worst bluelines in the NHL.  Even if Pulock and G.Reinhart play next season, they are too young. I think the Grabovski, Kulemin, and Halak signings fits their needs but it's the Islanders afterall. No one would be surprised to see them near the basement once again.

 

One more team i will add is Carolina.  Eric Staal just suffered a terrible off-season injury so not sure when he will be back and not sure how effective he will be.  The Canes boast one of the worst bluelines in the NHL and some of the worst 3rd/4th line forwards in the league.  It will be a tough year on Khudobin and Ward.

 

So yea, there you have it.  Those are probably the only teams who have a chance to be worst than the Flames next season and really, imo, Buffalo is the only team who is a "for sure" worst than the Flames.  With the strength of the Western Conference put to consideration, the Flames have a legitimate shot at being second worst in the league.

 

What's more fitting for this thread is that there's still time and cap space to change that.  Yet, rightfully so, the Flames won't add any more than a Stempniak type player to begin the season.  Simply, management has chosen to let this sub-par roster play out this upcoming season before making drastic changes.  It's not a bad decision from a hockey standpoint because it gives Treliving an opportunity to take a closer look at his prospect pool and get situated into the GM role (plus, of course, draft very high next year).

 

Next summer guys. Next summer Treliving will do whatever he can do to get this team out of the basement.  That includes being a player in every UFA signing, every star player trade, and maxing out payroll.  Next summer, the Flames should be a cap team once again and aiming to win all the time.

[travel_dude]

Agreed, you can't just look at scoring alone and think a team would rise or fall in the standings.  You have to look at both sides of the equation.  Also, Cammalleri leaves with 16 assists.  That means 16 Flames goals may not have happened had Cammalleri not touched the puck prior to their goals.

 

But yes, goaltending should be better.  Berra was an experiment that cost the Flames at least 5-points in the standings.  Ramo was also shakey at various points of last season before stabilizing near the end.  Hiller "should be" better than Macdonald and Berra as back-up but Hiller also played himself off the Ducks roster last season so he's not at the right side of the development curve.  He's on the downhill.  We'll have to see but there's potential for better goaltending for sure because at the end of the day, Ramo + Hiller may still be one of the worst tandems in the NHL.

 

I'll also add that Engellend may turn out to be a complete non-factor this season much like Shane O'Brien.  That means one of Russell, Smid, or Wotherspoon may be forced to the right side and play at half effectiveness.  Yes it's hopeful Brodie will continue to emerge as a legitimate top pair guy.  Giordano and Wideman has to stay healthy as well which has been difficult given both players's styles.

 

Still, the Flames boast one of the worst first lines in the NHL.  With Cammalleri, the Flames were two players short of having a legitimate first line.  Now, the Flames are missing three forwards for a legitimate first line.  Basically, Flames have three solid NHL caliber 2nd lines that can compete with any other team's 2nd/3rd lines but there's no answer for a first line. 

 

At the very least,

Nashville has James Neal

Ottawa has Ryan and Michalek

Winnpeg has Kane

Edmonton has Hall

 

Buffalo may be the only team without a legimate first line player on their forward group.

 

I know the counter argument would be that the Flames have Monahan, Gaudreau, and possibly Baertschi, Bennett, etc who could emerge as 30-goal scorers.  Well, Buffalo, Florida, and Edmonton have an even more impressive group of young kids. 

 

 

No question, those who want the Flames to be dead last in the league will be in tough because Buffalo has such a sad roster.  I think the best the Flames can do is second worst in the league which puts them in a good lottery spot to claim the #1 pick.

 

Florida - Luongo is a potential game changer.  Other than that, the D and F are comparable to the Flames.  Lots of 2nd/3rd line character guys and lots of young stars who are still too young to make a difference on a consistent basis.  I think FLA will be one of the worst 4 teams in the league.

 

Edmonton - Ever since the Oilers traded Dubnyk, they have been on par with the Flames.  I think they made good moves in the off-season starting with the Purcell/Gagner trade.  The Oilers still aren't playoff caliber but they are better than a Flames team without Cammalleri.

 

Winnipeg - They must keep Kane.  After that, if Scheifele and Trouba stay healthy all season, then i think the Jets have a legitimate shot at the playoffs.  They are not a bottom 5 team in a wide open Eastern Conference.

 

Ottawa - Some very good young players who i think need 2 to 3 years.  Much like the Flames.  But they do have Norris Dman Karlsson and Craig Anderson who keeps them in every game.

 

Arizona - I think you are reaching a bit trying to consider the Coyotes a team that could challenge for the worst in the league.  They have one of the best bluelines in the NHL and Mike Smith is a perfect goalie for their system.  They lack offense up front but they score from their D.  They may not be a playoff team but they are not one of the worst either.  Certainly better than the Flames.

 

Nashville - Weber, Rinne, and Neal give the Preds some legitimacy.  Very similar to when the Flames recently had Bouwmeester, Kiprusoff, and Iginla.  There's enough came changers to win them out of the basement but not enough all around to get them into the playoffs.  The Preds aren't challenging for the worst in the league.

 

NY Islanders - Tavares has bad knees and the Islanders have one of the worst bluelines in the NHL.  Even if Pulock and G.Reinhart play next season, they are too young. I think the Grabovski, Kulemin, and Halak signings fits their needs but it's the Islanders afterall. No one would be surprised to see them near the basement once again.

 

One more team i will add is Carolina.  Eric Staal just suffered a terrible off-season injury so not sure when he will be back and not sure how effective he will be.  The Canes boast one of the worst bluelines in the NHL and some of the worst 3rd/4th line forwards in the league.  It will be a tough year on Khudobin and Ward.

 

So yea, there you have it.  Those are probably the only teams who have a chance to be worst than the Flames next season and really, imo, Buffalo is the only team who is a "for sure" worst than the Flames.  With the strength of the Western Conference put to consideration, the Flames have a legitimate shot at being second worst in the league.

 

What's more fitting for this thread is that there's still time and cap space to change that.  Yet, rightfully so, the Flames won't add any more than a Stempniak type player to begin the season.  Simply, management has chosen to let this sub-par roster play out this upcoming season before making drastic changes.  It's not a bad decision from a hockey standpoint because it gives Treliving an opportunity to take a closer look at his prospect pool and get situated into the GM role (plus, of course, draft very high next year).

 

Next summer guys. Next summer Treliving will do whatever he can do to get this team out of the basement.  That includes being a player in every UFA signing, every star player trade, and maxing out payroll.  Next summer, the Flames should be a cap team once again and aiming to win all the time.

 

BTW, Winnipeg is in the West, not the East.

 

I didn't include the Oilers as a team finishing lower than the Flames, but they do seem to be good at it.

 

Ottawa is not a playoff team anymore.  Their owner has set an internal payroll and intends on keeping that low until the team is ready to compete again.  They lost two of their best players, and Bobby Ryan is a UFA next year.  He will be traded unless they are in the playoff picture by TDL.

 

Buffalo - nuff said.

 

Carolina - I agree they could challenge the basement teams.

 

Nashville is without Trotz.  He was the only reason that team was in the playoff picture for so long.

 

Arizona is not a powerhouse and is one injury away (Weber or Doan) from losing it big time.

 

Florida - do you really think Lou is going to be their saviour.  He is getting older, and he doesn't have the team in front of him any more.

[The_People1]

BTW, Winnipeg is in the West, not the East.

 

I didn't include the Oilers as a team finishing lower than the Flames, but they do seem to be good at it.

 

Ottawa is not a playoff team anymore.  Their owner has set an internal payroll and intends on keeping that low until the team is ready to compete again.  They lost two of their best players, and Bobby Ryan is a UFA next year.  He will be traded unless they are in the playoff picture by TDL.

 

Buffalo - nuff said.

 

Carolina - I agree they could challenge the basement teams.

 

Nashville is without Trotz.  He was the only reason that team was in the playoff picture for so long.

 

Arizona is not a powerhouse and is one injury away (Weber or Doan) from losing it big time.

 

Florida - do you really think Lou is going to be their saviour.  He is getting older, and he doesn't have the team in front of him any more.

 

Good catch on Winnipeg.  They are still better than the Flames though.  A new coach with a couple rising stars in Sheifele and Trouba will only help them.  As long as they hang onto Kane, they can't possibly be worse than the Flames.  Goaltending is a wash as Pavelec is in the same group as Ramo and Hiller.  Enstrom, Bogosian, and Trouba is a better top 3 than Giordano, Wideman, Brodie.  On Forwards, Kane is better than anyone the Flames have.  Ladd, Little, Byfuglien, and Wheeler, although streaky scorers, are returning 20-goal scorers.  The Flames have just Monahan returning as a 20-goal scorer from last season.  I really don't see Winnipeg as one of the worst teams in the league.  They may not be playoff material but they will be in the 10th to 12th range in the Conference.

 

Ottawa's D group suffered a sophomore slump last season.  Cowen and Weircioch look to be solid 3/4/5 guys and they complement Karlsson, Methot, and Phillips nicely.  Along with the ageless Anderson, the Sens have a really solid group of Dmen and goaltending.  Yes the Sens lost Spezza but the kid they got back, Alex Chiasson, is a rising star in the NHL.  It's not an equal trade and the Sens will take a bit of a step back but Zibanejad is ready to for a 2nd line role.  I think we all anticipate Ryan will get traded at the TDL, but that means he will be a part of the Sens for most of the season and help them win games.  The Sens have Neil and decent grinding to go along with 2 decent scoring lines.  It's good enough in the Eastern Conference.

 

Edmonton - Certainly.  I put them there because they have a chance to be bad based on history, like the Islanders who always find a way to suck. Although, this has to be the year they are better than the Flames, right? 

 

Buffalo - Yups

 

Carolina - Yups could be bottom 4

 

Nashville - again, the Flames had bad coaching with Brent Sutter and had Iginla, Kiprusoff, and Bouwmeester.  Managed to miss the playoffs, yet stayed well away from the basement.  Weber, Neal, and Rinne are younger.  I don't believe Nashville will contend for the playoffs but will also stay away from the basement.  Forsberg, Ribeiro, and Seth Jones are wild cards that give the Preds some hope as well.

 

Arizona - They are not a powerhouse but they have a great group of Dmen.  They are also very a consistent product.  We've seen enough out of the Coyotes to know they should've been a basement team for years but aren't.  They play well as a team.  Smith is a solid regular season goalie.  Their D is one of the best in the league.  They likely won't make the playoffs but likely won't be near the basement. We're also comparing healthy teams to healthy teams.  As if the Flames aren't one injury away from being the worst team in the league.

 

Florida - Lou was 6-7-1 down the stretch last season for Florida so there's still some fire left in the man. He's not a saviour who will take the Panthers to the playoffs but he could potentially improve the Panthers by 15-points in the standings (which still would've put them about 4th to 5th worst in the league).  He's going to keep the Panthers more competitive than last season.  No more goalie drama.  He's living where his wife wants to live.  Life is good.  His performance based on last year's sample size is good.

[calgary1233]

Good catch on Winnipeg.  They are still better than the Flames though.  A new coach with a couple rising stars in Sheifele and Trouba will only help them.  As long as they hang onto Kane, they can't possibly be worse than the Flames.  Goaltending is a wash as Pavelec is in the same group as Ramo and Hiller.  Enstrom, Bogosian, and Trouba is a better top 3 than Giordano, Wideman, Brodie.  On Forwards, Kane is better than anyone the Flames have.  Ladd, Little, Byfuglien, and Wheeler, although streaky scorers, are returning 20-goal scorers.  The Flames have just Monahan returning as a 20-goal scorer from last season.  I really don't see Winnipeg as one of the worst teams in the league.  They may not be playoff material but they will be in the 10th to 12th range in the Conference.

 

Ottawa's D group suffered a sophomore slump last season.  Cowen and Weircioch look to be solid 3/4/5 guys and they complement Karlsson, Methot, and Phillips nicely.  Along with the ageless Anderson, the Sens have a really solid group of Dmen and goaltending.  Yes the Sens lost Spezza but the kid they got back, Alex Chiasson, is a rising star in the NHL.  It's not an equal trade and the Sens will take a bit of a step back but Zibanejad is ready to for a 2nd line role.  I think we all anticipate Ryan will get traded at the TDL, but that means he will be a part of the Sens for most of the season and help them win games.  The Sens have Neil and decent grinding to go along with 2 decent scoring lines.  It's good enough in the Eastern Conference.

 

Edmonton - Certainly.  I put them there because they have a chance to be bad based on history, like the Islanders who always find a way to suck. Although, this has to be the year they are better than the Flames, right? 

 

Buffalo - Yups

 

Carolina - Yups could be bottom 4

 

Nashville - again, the Flames had bad coaching with Brent Sutter and had Iginla, Kiprusoff, and Bouwmeester.  Managed to miss the playoffs, yet stayed well away from the basement.  Weber, Neal, and Rinne are younger.  I don't believe Nashville will contend for the playoffs but will also stay away from the basement.  Forsberg, Ribeiro, and Seth Jones are wild cards that give the Preds some hope as well.

 

Arizona - They are not a powerhouse but they have a great group of Dmen.  They are also very a consistent product.  We've seen enough out of the Coyotes to know they should've been a basement team for years but aren't.  They play well as a team.  Smith is a solid regular season goalie.  Their D is one of the best in the league.  They likely won't make the playoffs but likely won't be near the basement. We're also comparing healthy teams to healthy teams.  As if the Flames aren't one injury away from being the worst team in the league.

 

Florida - Lou was 6-7-1 down the stretch last season for Florida so there's still some fire left in the man. He's not a saviour who will take the Panthers to the playoffs but he could potentially improve the Panthers by 15-points in the standings (which still would've put them about 4th to 5th worst in the league).  He's going to keep the Panthers more competitive than last season.  No more goalie drama.  He's living where his wife wants to live.  Life is good.  His performance based on last year's sample size is good.

maybe a few of these teams are better but really the flames have proven themselves to be a good team last year they were one of the hardest working teams in the league came second in block shots you don't need top players to make a team ally need is effort

all*

[robrob1974]

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=459859

 

It looks like it's going to be a bit harder to grab a Top 3 pick now. We may only ever settle for 4 or higher even if we ended up last place overall. I don't know if I like it. Well, maybe karma will have it's day as the Flames have always been a team to try harder when they're not that great and have everything to prove. It's when they didn't have anything to prove that they weren't putting in effort. 

 

So, here's to ending the losing for a higher pick argument. 

[The_People1]

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=459859

 

It looks like it's going to be a bit harder to grab a Top 3 pick now. We may only ever settle for 4 or higher even if we ended up last place overall. I don't know if I like it. Well, maybe karma will have it's day as the Flames have always been a team to try harder when they're not that great and have everything to prove. It's when they didn't have anything to prove that they weren't putting in effort. 

 

So, here's to ending the losing for a higher pick argument. 

 

I applaud the idea the first three picks are lotteries but wished they were non-weighted.  Still, a step in the right direction and hopefully they can progress further in the future.  At least you can't be gauranteed a top 3 pick anymore beginning 2016.

 

There's still an advantage in tanking in 2015.  Worst you can do is move down one spot whereas in 2016, you can move down 3 spots.  Plus, there are three chances to move up to the top 3 spots which is a huge deterent to losing down the stretch because even at 7th or 8th worst, you have a chance to move up to the top 3 picks (but can also drop 3 spots).

[COZA]

Clearly the Flames are tanking they have a few players in the minors that have potential to be first or second line NHL players. in Calgary there is only two top line forwards in Hudler and Glenx with Backlund and Mono probable second line players and of course Gaudreau showing potential the rest are not even making most teams lineup and forget about Stajan and his 10 goals and more avoidance to hit then J-Bow most guys are here so the flames can reach the floor if they are going to overpay bad hockey players may as we'll overpay the young kids and let them learn or fail than play the 10 barely 4th line players they have. GO FLAMES maybe next year at least try to make the playoffs

[Wreckening]

Are we really resurrecting this thread again?  We haven't even played one game yet.

[Kulstad]

Are we really resurrecting this thread again?  We haven't even played one game yet.

 

Nope.  Locking this now.

[Pyromancer]

  Just one more step Peeps & you will finally emerge from the dark side.

 

My sig quote say it all:

Let the draft chips fall where they may....I'd rather go out fighting than cower at the bottom of the standings.

 

Our failure to finish in the top 3 draft seeding cost us the ability to draft Ekblad, Reinhart, or Draisaitl and we were forced to pick Sam Bennett among the scraps. Did we win the draft despite losing a top 3 pick? Unfortunately we are unable to evaluate Bennett this year, but I think we did.

[The_People1]

I'll agree with you on this, but only if the offense remains as stale as it has been.  I truly believe that the players coming back from IR are needing real-game action to get back into the groove, and we'll see a marked improvement after the Christmas break.  And with that improvement will come the offense we need for a playoff push.

 

I think you're right about the first part.  We lost when the vets returned but they're back in the groove now, especially after a couple more days break.  They should be refreshed.

 

On the other hand (and I can't believe I'm agreeing with Eric Francis here), even if the boys fall short of the playoffs, I will be amazed, awed, and proud of all that they've shown in only the second year of a rebuild.

  Just one more step Peeps & you will finally emerge from the dark side.

 

Only three scenarios can play out from here on in,

 

1. Fall off the cliff (draft top 3). not really possible anymore

2. Miss the playoffs and draft high (top 10)

3. Miss the playoffs (barely) and draft in the middle (between 11-14)

4. Make the playoffs

 

Without question, the worst possible outcome is that we miss the playoffs barely and not miss it enough to get a high pick.  So in thinking we will make the playoffs, i'm cheering for the lesser of the two evils.  I really think the season is a failure if we miss the playoffs but don't miss it enough to draft in the top 10.

[Flyerfan52]

I think you're right about the first part.  We lost when the vets returned but they're back in the groove now, especially after a couple more days break.  They should be refreshed.

 

 

Only three scenarios can play out from here on in,

 

1. Fall off the cliff (draft top 3). not really possible anymore

2. Miss the playoffs and draft high (top 10)

3. Miss the playoffs (barely) and draft in the middle (between 11-14)

4. Make the playoffs

 

Without question, the worst possible outcome is that we miss the playoffs barely and not miss it enough to get a high pick.  So in thinking we will make the playoffs, i'm cheering for the lesser of the two evils.  I really think the season is a failure if we miss the playoffs but don't miss it enough to draft in the top 10.

Yeah.

There are never good players available in that 11-14 spot. (Iggy was a #11)

******************************************************************

It's not where you draft but who you draft. That's where scouting/management smarts comes in. (Gaudreau is a 4th rounder as is Brodie)

Signings like undrafted Gio certainly make up for the lack of top 5-10 picks.

 

Picking high has an aura of getting a superstar but some of the best (Shea Weber, Duncan Keith) aren't even 1st round picks.