Flames & Losing For Higher Draft Order.

[Flyerfan52]

You can't gaurantee you get a better player by picking higher.  No one can.  It's only a gaurantee you get to choose from more players the higher you pick.

 

 

 

Perception?  Lol it's math bro.  It shouldn't even need explanation.

 

That's like saying finishing 3rd vs 5th last in the overall league standings is perception.

 

 

 

Ekblad, Bennett, and Draisaitl are contradicting your point that for every C you want, there's 5 more.  For example, if you want a Right Hand shot Dman who has top pairing potential, there's only one.  If you miss it, then there's no more.  Prospect potential only starts to get murky when you get to the second round... but we're talking about the first round here.  In that critical first round, there are clear differences between one prospect and another.  It's not theory.

There are 2 perceptions in drafting 3rd vs 5th.

As you state it gives you 2 more high end players to pick from. Alternately, suddenly reversing course & looking like you really don't want to win raises the question of management going full ditch mode next season to land McDavid. If you do it to get better odds @ 1/1 one year it leaves that odor.

 

The depth @ any position varies from year to year. I believe conundrumed was speaking about the draft in general.

[Flyerfan52]

Considering the Crosby draft order was fully determined by an NHL lottery, your example is a double face palm total fail.  That, and they won the Cup too.  Was it worth it?  Oh boy.

A heavily weighted draft lottery. Pens had 3 balls while the Caps had 1 due to getting OV @ 1/1 the previous year (Pens got Malkin with the 2nd).

 

So the Pens lost the 2004 lottery, got Malkin as a consolation prize & had 3 times the odds @ Crosby over what they would have had picking 1/1 in '04.

[DirtyDeeds]

Malkin steps it up when Crosby is out and I think he is almost on par with Crosby. 

 

The thing about Pittsburg is, in my opinion is, that it's Crosby's team. Malkin doesn't have to step it up, players look to Crosby to make the difference. It was the same when the Flames had Iginla. I don't watch Pittsburg very often but if it's anything like it was with Iginla, the team just plays better as a whole without because they have to make up for the fact that someone like Crosby or Iginla is in the line-up; to keep to both references. 

 

It's why you see the Flames play so well. As long as all of the players buy in and play together, the team will do what the Flames are doing. I wonder when we get a player who will be "the man," will the team continue with the work ethic, will they continue to try and win the way they are?

 

"the man" in Calgary is Gio.. He is our captain and has always played all out every game, refuse to lose. Is it any wonder the team is following his lead under Bob Hartleys encouragement?

[Wreckening]

"the man" in Calgary is Gio.. He is our captain and has always played all out every game, refuse to lose. Is it any wonder the team is following his lead under Bob Hartleys encouragement?

Agree 100%.

 

I think we see this team is not "tanking" for the sake of a pick.  Kinda makes this thread irrelevant now and for that I'm glad.  The message has been established, the identity has been established and we couldn't have a better player to be Captain of this team when it comes to setting the example.  Sorry Peeps this team isn't going to quit.

[robrob1974]

Personally, I think we're going to draft around 7th, 8th or 9th, most likely 8th or 9th… By the looks of it, we're going to win out the season as we're the only team that cares about it now. LA doesn't have any reason other than to remain competitive, and the other teams are out and the Canucks really don't care to play, especially for Torts. So maybe the Jets play for pride? They're the team I don't know about. 

[andymo]

Personally, I think we're going to draft around 7th, 8th or 9th, most likely 8th or 9th… By the looks of it, we're going to win out the season as we're the only team that cares about it now. LA doesn't have any reason other than to remain competitive, and the other teams are out and the Canucks really don't care to play, especially for Torts. So maybe the Jets play for pride? They're the team I don't know about. 

We will draft 4th, 5th or 6th unless we win the lottery. LA will have Sutter on their backs and will not lay down. Vancouver have their futures to play for with changes coming in. And in every NHL game somebody has to win. Even if we were to win all 3 games  which is doubtful, it is fairly likely we would not leapfrog anyone above us. 

[robrob1974]

We will draft 4th, 5th or 6th unless we win the lottery. LA will have Sutter on their backs and will not lay down. Vancouver have their futures to play for with changes coming in. And in every NHL game somebody has to win. Even if we were to win all 3 games  which is doubtful, it is fairly likely we would not leapfrog anyone above us. 

I hope you're right. I think that drafting as low as 5th might give us leverage to make a deal to move up in the draft. Hope it works out....

[conundrumed]

Honestly, I don't care where we draft. I'm not on the 5 year program. What we have moving forward is a lot of positives.

You take successes and build on them, that's team-building. I thought Sather debunked the myth that the team of best players you can get wins?

The great players in the league are all over the draftboard, the league isn't dominated by 1-5 picks, it's fruitless to tell me "math" when you can't use that math to support the reality of the league in past drafts.

So why lose to support a theory that doesn't hold true in reality?

[kehatch]

If we win out the season we could draft 8 overall. If Vancouver loses out the season we could finish higher then them in the standings. Crazy.

[Bastardsonofmacinnis]

If we win out the season we could draft 8 overall. If Vancouver loses out the season we could finish higher then them in the standings. Crazy.

Yeah, I was just looking at that. Like most, I hate the Canucks and most of their fan base. I honestly don't care where we draft if we get the chance to finish higher than them. That team is a train wreck. I love it.

[The_People1]

I hope you're right. I think that drafting as low as 5th might give us leverage to make a deal to move up in the draft. Hope it works out....

 

Burke made a big splash in Vancouver wheeling and dealing to get the Sedins drafted together.

Burke made a big splash in Toronto swinging a deal for Kessel.

 

So we know, when he's got his eye on any particular prospect that he wants, then he will go get him at any cost. 

[robrob1974]

If we win out the season we could draft 8 overall. If Vancouver loses out the season we could finish higher then them in the standings. Crazy.

Ya, that's what I was saying earlier. I think it happens we are the only team that cares left in the league. Other teams are resting their guns for the playoffs, while the ones just out our crying in their beer. I get it but it is frustrating too. I was hoping for that #5 but I think we draft 7th or 8th.

Like Steinberg said yesterday, cheer in our moral victory of finishing above .500 on home ice.

Us losing out on that higher pick gives the Vancouvers the chance to turn it around faster. I am still in the belief that this doesn't help long term. I hope I am wrong.

I think drafting 8 takes away any leverage Burke would have on the draft floor to trade up. That number 8 just is not close to being as valuable as the number 5....

I think we will be Stuck in mediocrity. I've seen this before back when we first rebuilt after we got Iginla. We fought to the bitter end in most games and hardly saw an improvement, even after we were picked to win divisions and cups... We had no one to ever play with Iginla.

Our draft record sucks for the most part, but maybe that has something to do with development or both? I dunno. I would obviously prefer the better chance of a high end guy than hope that you luck out in the later rounds.

[andymo]

In the last 30 games we are 19-11-0! That is pretty amazing form. We have young players growing, learning and winning. This has to be good for the future. How can you not advocate encouraging and nurturing that. It is that magic that eludes so many rebuilding teams, condemning them to years of struggle. Nothing is guaranteed here. We could hit the wall and go downhill next year and of course there are those that would embrace it, but as long as the organization refuses to accept that we will be a bad team as an inevitable part of a rebuild, we have a chance of a bright new dawn.

[robrob1974]

Chicago, St. Louis, Anaheim, LA, Colorado, San Jose are all teams who are all but guaranteed playoffs over the next 3-5 years. We will be fighting everyone else for 2 spots. Can it be done? Maybe. Can you honestly say we have the team to beat out others like Minnesota, Phoenix or Dallas? And we have to leap frog over Winnipeg, Nashville and Vancouver.

We had a great run yes...

It would be amazing if they can pull that off next season, going on the 19-11-0 pace of the last 30 games. I do like the idea of being hard to play against. Over 82 games it equates to 103 points, but if some of those losses were OT losses or some of the wins were OT losses as well, things would change in points... I don't think we can sustain that pace and the scoring we are getting.

[The_People1]

I think we will be Stuck in mediocrity. I've seen this before back when we first rebuilt after we got Iginla. We fought to the bitter end in most games and hardly saw an improvement, even after we were picked to win divisions and cups... We had no one to ever play with Iginla.

 

That's my worst fear as well.  This was a "toss away season" and we won't come out of it with a top 5 pick (unless we win the draft lottery but odds are slim).  These remaining 4-points can play a pivotal role in the Flames future.

[The_People1]

In the last 30 games we are 19-11-0! That is pretty amazing form. We have young players growing, learning and winning. This has to be good for the future. How can you not advocate encouraging and nurturing that. It is that magic that eludes so many rebuilding teams, condemning them to years of struggle. Nothing is guaranteed here. We could hit the wall and go downhill next year and of course there are those that would embrace it, but as long as the organization refuses to accept that we will be a bad team as an inevitable part of a rebuild, we have a chance of a bright new dawn.

 

Mike Cammalleri.  After the trade deadline, he finally decided to be a $6-mil player.  If only he played like this the entire season.  The Flames might be in a playoff race.  He's a major reason for the Flames excellent second half record.  Because let's be honest, the rest of the Flames have played hardcore intense the entire season.  Cammy was the difference.

 

So the question will be asked, what if Cammaleri leaves via UFA this summer?  All the momentum (that was basically all his doing)... will he take it away with him?  If the Flames play hardcore intense all of next season without Cammy, will that be enough?

[andymo]

That's my worst fear as well. This was a "toss away season" and we won't come out of it with a top 5 pick (unless we win the draft lottery but odds are slim). These remaining 4-points can play a pivotal role in the Flames future.

This is not a throw away season for Monahan. Or Colborne. Or Ramo, Granlund, Byron, Brodie or Wotherspoon. They have all excelled. Mark Giordano has been inspirational in his first yearas captain. If they had all played poorly, or even adequately, would a higher draft pick mean we were better off? What if Backlund had struggled again? Or Ortio been a fish out of water in our callup? Or Russell not really clicked? Would that have helped our rebuild? Cos we got Bennett at 3rd instead of Dal Colle at 6?

[robrob1974]

That's my worst fear as well.  This was a "toss away season" and we won't come out of it with a top 5 pick (unless we win the draft lottery but odds are slim).  These remaining 4-points can play a pivotal role in the Flames future.

We might be the only two, Peeps.... Who feel this way. It just feels like history is repeating itself and it is all good to say things about the bottom feeders who never get better, but when we stay in the midst of mediocrity, is that not doing the same? With those top teams draft and development record, it is going to be hard pressed to make the playoffs over the next 5 years. We need players to play in the top 6 not the bottom 6 and drafting in that 8-10 spot usually gets us bottom... We lucked out on Brodie.... Backlund is still a question and right now a serviceable 2/3 center, and a 3rd liner on most teams.

[CheersMan]

This thread can die when it's no longer possible to move up the draft order by losing... like forever.

 

Or else we'll just see this thread again next year.

 

This thread is dead.  Our management, coaches and players play to win at all times and they are proving that.  Losing is unacceptable to them thank God.  95% of the members on this board believe that as well.  We play to WIN and we pick where we pick...period.  Those wishing for loses can hop off the bandwagon and go join the other Alberta team with their endless losing and top picks.  Bye, bye………..see ya……….don’t let the door hit you on the way out.  Bye!

[Flyerfan52]

Mike Cammalleri.  After the trade deadline, he finally decided to be a $6-mil player.  If only he played like this the entire season.  The Flames might be in a playoff race.  He's a major reason for the Flames excellent second half record.  Because let's be honest, the rest of the Flames have played hardcore intense the entire season.  Cammy was the difference.

 

So the question will be asked, what if Cammaleri leaves via UFA this summer?  All the momentum (that was basically all his doing)... will he take it away with him?  If the Flames play hardcore intense all of next season without Cammy, will that be enough?

Depends.

Would a re-signed Cammi play as hard as he did when he found out his trade value was so low the Flames figured they'd be better off keeping him? That told him he'd better showcase himself if he wanted good UFA offers.

 

@31 Cammi isn't eligible for a bonus driven contract but he is an example of a player that needs that financial carrot.

[The_People1]

This is not a throw away season for Monahan. Or Colborne. Or Ramo, Granlund, Byron, Brodie or Wotherspoon. They have all excelled. Mark Giordano has been inspirational in his first yearas captain. If they had all played poorly, or even adequately, would a higher draft pick mean we were better off? What if Backlund had struggled again? Or Ortio been a fish out of water in our callup? Or Russell not really clicked? Would that have helped our rebuild? Cos we got Bennett at 3rd instead of Dal Colle at 6?

 

Yes.

 

The 2015/16 team that's ready to make a push for the playoffs would be better with Bennett than Dal Colle (not that Dal Colle is a bad player, but if you have to compare the two...).

 

Who else would be on that team?  Likely Baertschi, Gaudreau, Poirier, Klimchuk, and maybe Jankowski.  Hopefully, they are all are good enough to play top 6 along with Bennett and Monahan.  Dal Colle is a bit of a drop off.

 

Half the guys on this season's team won't even be here by then.

[The_People1]

We might be the only two, Peeps.... Who feel this way. It just feels like history is repeating itself and it is all good to say things about the bottom feeders who never get better, but when we stay in the midst of mediocrity, is that not doing the same? With those top teams draft and development record, it is going to be hard pressed to make the playoffs over the next 5 years. We need players to play in the top 6 not the bottom 6 and drafting in that 8-10 spot usually gets us bottom... We lucked out on Brodie.... Backlund is still a question and right now a serviceable 2/3 center, and a 3rd liner on most teams.

 

I know.  Moreover, we're just not one of those cities that naturally attracts UFAs so if we don't draft our star players, then we will unlikely ever have them.  We had Iginla in his prime and couldn't attract a true #1 Center to come here.

 

This thread is dead.  Our management, coaches and players play to win at all times and they are proving that.  Losing is unacceptable to them thank God.  95% of the members on this board believe that as well.  We play to WIN and we pick where we pick...period.  Those wishing for loses can hop off the bandwagon and go join the other Alberta team with their endless losing and top picks.  Bye, bye………..see ya……….don’t let the door hit you on the way out.  Bye!

 

Missing the playoffs is unacceptable to everyone.  So what's the solution?  Keeping finishing 10th in the Conference and never drafting a franchise altering talent?  We will see this thread again next season by January when the playoffs are out of reach yet again. 

 

 

Depends.

Would a re-signed Cammi play as hard as he did when he found out his trade value was so low the Flames figured they'd be better off keeping him? That told him he'd better showcase himself if he wanted good UFA offers.

 

@31 Cammi isn't eligible for a bonus driven contract but he is an example of a player that needs that financial carrot.

 

How should the Flames replace Cammy's scoring?  Put it on Baertschi and Gaudreau's shoulders? 

[Lucid_Flame91]

Another decade of drafting in the 10-15 range would change some minds, mediocrity year after year fighting for a "wild card" spot to get into the play-offs, just to have a 1st round exit. Not many teams can do what the flames did in 04' or the Kings in 12'

 

And that had a sutter behind the bench both times, lets re-rotate them back in I suppose aswell.

[kehatch]

That's my worst fear as well.  This was a "toss away season" and we won't come out of it with a top 5 pick (unless we win the draft lottery but odds are slim).  These remaining 4-points can play a pivotal role in the Flames future.

 

God forbid if we aren't bad enough to be a bottom 5 team.  

 

I bought the argument of mediocrity being bad when we were a veteran team and clearly on the way down.  We are now a young team and moving in the right direction.  Not being at the bottom in that situation is a good thing.  Not giving up is a good thing.

 

Why don't you just enjoy Ramo playing lights out, Gio putting up a career year, Brodie looking like a legitimate top pairing guy, Monahan scoring more goals than any Flames rookie since Iginla, etc? 

[FeyWest]

I agree with what's being said, and no I don't want a repeat of the past as that is a huge fear, but if you play by your fears soon they will come to control every decision and that's when they come to fruition.

Learn from the past mistakes, don't make the quick fix trades, trade and draft smartly, be consistent and play your heart out.

Don't try to cheat the system because you only cheat yourself and it'll come back to haunt you.

How often did we not have a full set of picks or at least from 1st - 3rd round in the past 10 years? Kehatch made a great post about this earlier and I can say it didnt look pretty.

Sure I hope we don't repeat the past but I don't think it will as there are so many differences from then to the present. Balance and consistency with some risks thrown in is all I can see being the difference between mediocrity and greatness regardless of where we draft.

TLDR: Smart drafting, knowing your weaknesses and addressing them appropriately, no "quick-fix" magic beans and we'll be set for the future, don't need to tank to accomplish this IMHO