Goaltending

[cross16]

14 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

What about Rittich?  Is he or McCollum being sent to the ECHL?  Or did I miss an injury announcement?

 

Nothing has been announced, flames haven't even confirmed the signing which makes sense given they can't fit McCollum under the cap as the roster is currently structured. 

[travel_dude]

Just now, jjgallow said:

 

 

I think we are signing all available goalies for the newest All-goalie team.  Will play like the old verson of the Devils.  Talk about the trap!  Not a lot of scoring, but there is literally no 5 hole.  Three goalie stack is the new motto.

[JTech780]

After Elliott and Johnson we are extremely inexperienced in goal, I see this an insurance policy. 

 

Lots of AHL teams carry 3 goalies. 

 

McCollum has had pretty decent stats at the AHL level the last few years.

[travel_dude]

4 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

After Elliott and Johnson we are extremely inexperienced in goal, I see this an insurance policy. 

 

Lots of AHL teams carry 3 goalies. 

 

McCollum has had pretty decent stats at the AHL level the last few years.

 

It makes lots of sense for the Expansion draft.  I don't mind an extra hand on the farm, but it would be nice to give Rittich some games to see if he is a keeper.

[DirtyDeeds]

32 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

After Elliott and Johnson we are extremely inexperienced in goal, I see this an insurance policy. 

 

Lots of AHL teams carry 3 goalies. 

 

McCollum has had pretty decent stats at the AHL level the last few years.

I think we played something like  11 different goalies in Stockton last season.

[cross16]

3 goalies is defiantly frowned upon in the NHL but pretty normal on the AHL. 3 goalies down there plus Macdonald in the ECHL is not too many at all. All will get plenty of games. Scheduling in the A can get crazy. 

[xstrike]

Early results of the experiment is favoring JJ's argument. Just initial results though.

[cross16]

3 minutes ago, xstrike said:

Early results of the experiment is favoring JJ's argument. Just initial results though.

 Right now I would take Ramo over Elliott. Elliott hasn't played well at all IMO. Johnson has been good and with him in the net the results have been much better. 

[JTech780]

Johnson is very calm in the net there isn't any wasted movement, he stays very square to the shooter. It just seems like he very confident in the net and the team knows he will make the saves he supposed to make.

 

Elliott is all over the place in net, he is moving when shouldn't be. His blocker side is terrible. The puck seems to always pop out of his trapper. He isn't making the easy save right now.

[DHT]

I'm in agreement that Johnson should start in the next game. He looks better than Elliot at this point.

[conundrumed]

How is it we get on Elliot?

The whole team looks like uninspired, confused garbage.

When Stajan is consistently our best player, we're probably 1-4 and sinking.

Why wait until the last 24 minutes to start skating?

The PP isn't just bad anymore, it's laughable.

[cross16]

6 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

How is it we get on Elliot?

 

 

Pretty simple, he isn't playing very well.

 

Not his fault by any means, but to say he isn't part of the problem isn't correct either. Early in the season you are going to have issues and you need your goalie to be there, Elliott hasn't been. 

[conundrumed]

1 minute ago, cross16 said:

 

Pretty simple, he isn't playing very well.

 

Not his fault by any means, but to say he isn't part of the problem isn't correct either. Early in the season you are going to have issues and you need your goalie to be there, Elliott hasn't been. 

Who has? Stajan and Frolik is about it for me.

We used to run around confused in the D zone, now we stand around confused.

So our goalies have to carry a GA of 1 for us to win?

We have more than issues, but here we are pointing out goaltending as the biggest again.

Which goal was Elliot's fault again?

[cross16]

Just now, conundrumed said:

Who has? Stajan and Frolik is about it for me.

We used to run around confused in the D zone, now we stand around confused.

So our goalies have to carry a GA of 1 for us to win?

We have more than issues, but here we are pointing out goaltending as the biggest again.

Which goal was Elliot's fault again?

 

No one is saying that. I bothers me everyone tries to be so black and white on this issue. Yes the team is struglging and not playing well but so is Elliott. Why does it have to be one of the others fault?  

 

Early in the season a team is likely going to struggle and you need your goalie to be there for you. Johnson, behind the same team I might add, has been just fine, so why is it Elliott can't get any blame?

 

he was way out of place on the Tervaninen goal and basicaly gave him that side of the net and he's really not playing breakaways well at all. He goes down on his belly so quick and everyone is beating him on the same move, backhand over the glove. Those are the type of big saves you need when you are struggling and its the goalie he wants to be. 

[conundrumed]

31 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

No one is saying that. I bothers me everyone tries to be so black and white on this issue. Yes the team is struglging and not playing well but so is Elliott. Why does it have to be one of the others fault?  

 

Early in the season a team is likely going to struggle and you need your goalie to be there for you. Johnson, behind the same team I might add, has been just fine, so why is it Elliott can't get any blame?

 

he was way out of place on the Tervaninen goal and basicaly gave him that side of the net and he's really not playing breakaways well at all. He goes down on his belly so quick and everyone is beating him on the same move, backhand over the glove. Those are the type of big saves you need when you are struggling and its the goalie he wants to be. 

??

Teravainen got behind our D and a pass got through to him. Elliot stopped the first and Tera popped his own rebound in.

He got a piece of the breakaway and it went post and in.

It's easy-peasy to get behind our D way too often.

Maybe occasionally the team can help the goalie out too.

And great job taking 2 penalties late when we need a goal.

= one hot mess, invent all of the positives you like, it still comes down to W-L.

Can't score, can't skate, fight the puck all game every game...

[jjgallow]

21 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

No one is saying that. I bothers me everyone tries to be so black and white on this issue. Yes the team is struglging and not playing well but so is Elliott. Why does it have to be one of the others fault?  

 

Because you just finished saying it was in your previous sentence.   Nobody in here is praising Elliot.  They are being realistic and saying that it is impossible to continue to blame all things on the goalie if we want to have any chance at actually improving as a team.   You are too knowledgeable of a hockey person to be arguing with that.

The team has been struggling and not playing well for 86 regular season games, and a playoff round before that.   Previous to this, they had a "miracle" season, because they played mediocre when they were expected to be last in the league.  Mediocre, in the pig picture, is still struggling.  So that's 168 games.  The two seasons before that were unspeakable.   So that's 332 games.  And I'm still being kind, imho.   Honestly, when was this a good team?  2006?  I think we're approaching the 10 year anniversary of the last great hockey in the saddledome.   How many more years before it's a trend, cross?

 

21 minutes ago, cross16 said:

Early in the season a team is likely going to struggle and you need your goalie to be there for you.

 

No.  Absolutely not.   In each game, exactly one team wins, and one team Doesn't win.   This ratio is consistent in the pre-season, early season, mid-season, and late season.   The goalie's job is NOT to save their team in early season.   That is statistically impossible.   But more importantly, backwards.

 

If Anything, a goalie's job is to steal games in the playoffs.  If our team isn't even good enough to ever get there, we have bigger issues than a goalie.

 

21 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

Johnson, behind the same team I might add, has been just fine, so why is it Elliott can't get any blame?

 

Johnson actually struggled immensely in the pre-season.  We've already gone over this, we went into the regular season with Elliot as our "only saving grace".  

 

How many goalies do we need to go through before we give up on the same, tired, unproductive arguement?

 

21 minutes ago, cross16 said:

he was way out of place on the Tervaninen goal and basicaly gave him that side of the net and he's really not playing breakaways well at all.

 

He Shouldn't Have to, OMG.   That's the last thing I would want my goalie spending time on his breakaways.  That's NOT supposed to be a regular occurence and Nobody in the hockey business, who understands the game, looks to the goalie first when doing the forensics on a breakaway goal.    Nobody.

 

21 minutes ago, cross16 said:

He goes down on his belly so quick and everyone is beating him on the same move, backhand over the glove. Those are the type of big saves you need when you are struggling and its the goalie he wants to be. 

 

First of all, that's not true.  Second of all, you said the same thing all last year about he who shall not be named.   Just because the puck goes over their glove, doesn't mean they're all beating him on the same move.

 

 

In Summary, the Flames were horrible last night and only barely mustered two goals against what is likely the worst team in the league.   We have an extremely easy schedule at the moment and so far have mostly played very beatable opponents.   Yeah, Johnson will probably get the nod next game, but that should Not be the takeaway from all this, or the last four games, or all last season, or the last 10 years.

[cross16]

42 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

??

Teravainen got behind our D and a pass got through to him. Elliot stopped the first and Tera popped his own rebound in.

He got a piece of the breakaway and it went post and in.

It's easy-peasy to get behind our D way too often.

Maybe occasionally the team can help the goalie out too.

And great job taking 2 penalties late when we need a goal.

= one hot mess, invent all of the positives you like, it still comes down to W-L.

Can't score, can't skate, fight the puck all game every game...

 

He did not play the Tervaninen goal well at all and i'm not relaly sure how you can even defend him there? That was not an overly difficult play for a goalie to stop and once he stopped the rebound he actually slide away from Tervaninen toward the middle of the net and left his glove side wide open. If he stays low and hugs the post, which is prety much goalie 101, that doesn't go in. He is really "busy" in the net right now and he is creating openings by too much movement.  He is getting a bit unlucky on bounces I get what you are saying there but at the end of the day you need stops. Having a goalie lay on his belly after a breakaway is sure sign that he got fooled and didn't play that well. I get we don't want to give up breakaway but newsflash all teams do. Its called mistakes. 

 

JJ, i'm not going to respond to you because quite frankily you arn't making any sense and I dont' know what your point is anymore and you clearly don't understand mine becuase never once have i ever said this is all on goaltending. 

 

It is getting pretty annoying that you cannot have a disucssion about goaltending on this boards. As soon as you criticize the goaltending everyone assumes that means you are letting the players off the hook. 

 

Edit: For a point of reference does anyone consider the Oilers D to be good, or playing better than the Flames? Yet they have 4 wins becuase Cam Talbot has been excellent, and when they make mistakes (which they are at I would suggest a pretty simlar rate to the Flames) he's been bailing them out.  That's what you sometimes need at the start of the season. 

[ABC923]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

Edit: For a point of reference does anyone consider the Oilers D to be good, or playing better than the Flames? Yet they have 4 wins becuase Cam Talbot has been excellent, and when they make mistakes (which they are at I would suggest a pretty simlar rate to the Flames) he's been bailing them out.  That's what you sometimes need at the start of the season. 

Cam Talbot has not been excellent, at best he has been okay.  He boasts a .902 save percentage (28th out of 58) and a 3.32 GAA (40th out of 58), hardly stellar numbers.  The oilers are only 4-1-0 because they boast the leagues best offense, scoring 4 goals per game, which is in part due to having the most dynamic offensive player in the league since Crosby and Ovi first started.

[CalgarySTL]

I thought Johnson's been fairly solid so far & I'm not going to jump all over Elliot as of yet... while I agree, he definitely hasn't been stealing us any games.  Our overall game has been an absolute dumpster fire. I don't see any goalie in the league saving us from ourselves at the moment.   So many breakaways, odd man rushes, screening our own goalies, taking stupid / lazy (or B.S.) penalties, 5 on 3's, garbage passing, giveaways, etc.  I'll wait until we actually start playing somewhat satisfactory before judging him.

 

I disagree about the Teravainen goal... looked like it just took a bad bounce off Elliot on the first shot & unlucky for us, went right back to him. It's a point blank shot & a second opportunity with no D stopping him... then a complete screen by our own player, a breakaway & a 5 on 3 goal... hard to blame Elliot for all that.  What did he have to deal with in the Edm games... like 6 breakaways / game, plus countless other odd man rushes, bunch of power plays, etc. He did let in a couple bad ones but, I feel like it would have been 10 goals against, if Hiller was in net for any of that.

[cross16]

22 minutes ago, ABC923 said:

Cam Talbot has not been excellent, at best he has been okay.  He boasts a .902 save percentage (28th out of 58) and a 3.32 GAA (40th out of 58), hardly stellar numbers.  The oilers are only 4-1-0 because they boast the leagues best offense, scoring 4 goals per game, which is in part due to having the most dynamic offensive player in the league since Crosby and Ovi first started.

 

Becuase of how bad they were against the Sabres.

 

In his 4 wins he has a .930 save percentage and has averaged over 30 shots against in every one of those wins. GAA of 2.5.  

[Flyerfan52]

27 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

Becuase of how bad they were against the Sabres.

 

In his 4 wins he has a .930 save percentage and has averaged over 30 shots against in every one of those wins. GAA of 2.5.  

Prorating SV% & GAA average by excluding a bad game is like prorating points over a season had the player remained healthy or been more than an injury replacement with a few good games or 2nd assists.

That's fantasy hockey.

[jjgallow]

6 minutes ago, Flyerfan52 said:

Prorating SV% & GAA average by excluding a bad game is like prorating points over a season had the player remained healthy or been more than an injury replacement with a few good games or 2nd assists.

That's fantasy hockey.

 

I think it's a great, positive way of looking at life

 

If you pro-rate the Flames for all the times they haven't been scored on, 

 

They have yet to be scored on this year, which is pretty impressive

[jjgallow]

2 hours ago, cross16 said:

 

quite frankily you arn't making any sense

 

I can certainly understand how my post was upsetting to you and came across as harsh.   That was not the intent, and obviously we have different opinions.

 

But this part of your post, is a cop-out, and garbage.

 

Let's see how things are 10 games in.

[Flyerfan52]

3 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

I think it's a great, positive way of looking at life

 

If you pro-rate the Flames for all the times they haven't been scored on, 

 

They have yet to be scored on this year, which is pretty impressive

Or we could make DL very happy & prorate the season. Canucks go 82-0.

************************************************************************************

Let's just give all the teams a participation banner & award all trophies to every player eligible by position based on their best minutes only. That way nobody feels left out ().

From game 1 forward all games are funsies so no need for a scoreboard. & every player can be a superstar. No man left behind you could say.

 

Imagine contract negotiations.

Agent: My client is a Calder & 3 time Norris winner averaging 82 goals a season.

GM: So is every D his age. Some had a prorated average of 80 G & 82 A.

[cross16]

35 minutes ago, Flyerfan52 said:

Prorating SV% & GAA average by excluding a bad game is like prorating points over a season had the player remained healthy or been more than an injury replacement with a few good games or 2nd assists.

That's fantasy hockey.

 

I would agree but that depends on the point you are trying to make. My point was not that Talbot is a great goalie, my point is that Talbot is doing what I think the Flames need right now he is stealing/keeing the OIlers in games behind a so/so defence. You can't steal games 100% of the time, thus why 3 or his 4 games are important.