darth_henning Posted December 29, 2015 Report Share Posted December 29, 2015 If we were going to re-sign Ramo this past summer, I was expecting it to be around 2.5. It is why I worry about Treliving's contracts. A lot are over priced by about a million. I think that's definitely not true of the more recent contracts Bouma is on the high end but fair. Hamilton and Gio are both a mil or more less than I'd expected. Everyone else signed in the last year and a bit is fair. Yes, Raymond, Gouchi, Engellend were overpaid, but that was before we knew how fast the rebuild would actually be as stop-gaps. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheersMan Posted December 29, 2015 Report Share Posted December 29, 2015 If we were going to re-sign Ramo this past summer, I was expecting it to be around 2.5. It is why I worry about Treliving's contracts. A lot are over priced by about a million. Ramo was a UFA. He was coming off a rather successful season (0.912 SA%) and was comparing offers from other teams. As to what teams may have been interested nobody knows. Flames may have paid a premium for a short 1 term deal but what was the harm when they had the cap space? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robrob1974 Posted December 29, 2015 Report Share Posted December 29, 2015 Ramo was not the reason we beat the Canucks in the first round. Hiller played all of the games until after game 1 of the Ducks series. He was only good enough to win us one game against them. I was a fan of Ramo, but he still didn't have starter numbers and starter number of games last year that equates to nearly 4m/year. For whomever said Jones got a lot, he was getting paid for potential and I don't think he deserved 3 yet because he has only ever been a backup in LA who drives possession every year. He hadn't earned it yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cross16 Posted December 29, 2015 Report Share Posted December 29, 2015 Ramo was not the reason we beat the Canucks in the first round. Hiller played all of the games until after game 1 of the Ducks series. He was only good enough to win us one game against them. I was a fan of Ramo, but he still didn't have starter numbers and starter number of games last year that equates to nearly 4m/year. For whomever said Jones got a lot, he was getting paid for potential and I don't think he deserved 3 yet because he has only ever been a backup in LA who drives possession every year. He hadn't earned it yet. Which is fine, but remember what you think they should be paid and what the market dictates they will get paid are 2 very different things. Whether you like the Jones contract or not, it is a comparable Ramo can use to help justify his worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheersMan Posted January 3, 2016 Report Share Posted January 3, 2016 That should put an end to the Varmonov acquisition conversation. Here’s an update on Ramo’s play as of late. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjgallow Posted January 4, 2016 Report Share Posted January 4, 2016 Ortio has been strong in his last 4 games, and may be recovering from what was honestly a horribly executed transition to the NHL for him. Playing like his old self again. http://theahl.com/stats/gamebygame.php?id=4090 In the event that he is needed, I think he could step up soon...if not already...and perform well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travel_dude Posted January 4, 2016 Report Share Posted January 4, 2016 Ortio has been strong in his last 4 games, and may be recovering from what was honestly a horribly executed transition to the NHL for him. Playing like his old self again. http://theahl.com/stats/gamebygame.php?id=4090 In the event that he is needed, I think he could step up soon...if not already...and perform well. Last game he faced 30 shots and won against Brossoit (48 shots). The previous game he let in 2 goal in the first 3 minutes and was pulled. He went back in after Simpson let in 4, and was "perfect" after that. He is sub 900 in the AHL and 3.21 GAA. I wouldn't call that ready. If he can keep his GA to 2 or less for a stretch, then maybe he is trending in the right direction. Poulin is back now, so unless they want Ortio to go through the waiver again after an injury relief, the only way he gets back is if they trade Hiller. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cross16 Posted January 4, 2016 Report Share Posted January 4, 2016 With Ramo playing the way he is I don't think you will see Ortio anytime soon and nor should you. While yes his last few games have been good, he was downright terrible, by all accounts, up until then. I'd like to see at least a month of solid play before I even consider him "back". But again, the reality is with the way Ramo has been playing I don't think Ortio would be a better option and i'm not sure you want Ortio coming back up just to be the backup. If they can move Hiller sure, otherwise I suspect you will likely see Ortio in the AHL for the rest of the year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjgallow Posted January 4, 2016 Report Share Posted January 4, 2016 With Ramo playing the way he is I don't think you will see Ortio anytime soon and nor should you. While yes his last few games have been good, he was downright terrible, by all accounts, up until then. I'd like to see at least a month of solid play before I even consider him "back". But again, the reality is with the way Ramo has been playing I don't think Ortio would be a better option and i'm not sure you want Ortio coming back up just to be the backup. If they can move Hiller sure, otherwise I suspect you will likely see Ortio in the AHL for the rest of the year. He certainly doesn't fit into the current picture. And I certainly wouldn't want him up here without playing any games. That was the whole problem. But, things can happen. Today, we're going off the premise that: 1. Ramo is playing great 2. We have Hiller What premise will we be going off of next week? Next month? We don't know. I would agree that he needs more time to get back to where he was (the AHL's best goalie). But a time will hopefully come again where the only way for him to develop further is to be given fair time in the NHL. And I Hope....if that occurs again, that he will be given that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cross16 Posted January 4, 2016 Report Share Posted January 4, 2016 He certainly doesn't fit into the current picture. And I certainly wouldn't want him up here without playing any games. That was the whole problem. But, things can happen. Today, we're going off the premise that: 1. Ramo is playing great 2. We have Hiller What premise will we be going off of next week? Next month? We don't know. I would agree that he needs more time to get back to where he was (the AHL's best goalie). But a time will hopefully come again where the only way for him to develop further is to be given fair time in the NHL. And I Hope....if that occurs again, that he will be given that. Thats a HUGE stretch. Was great 2 seasons ago, but he was about avg last year. Personally i think Ortio's time in the AHL has been really overrated. he got an All star nod becuase his had a stellar 2 months between Nov and early January but outside of that he was about average. never mind the fact that IMO being the AHL's best goalie means nothing if you can't sustain it at the NHL level and so far he hasn't. Doesnt' mean I don't think he is good just that I think fans are really overrating not only how good he might be, but how good he has been. Part of the reason I don't agree with the uproar about how he was "handled". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjgallow Posted January 4, 2016 Report Share Posted January 4, 2016 Thats a HUGE stretch. Was great 2 seasons ago, but he was about avg last year. Personally i think Ortio's time in the AHL has been really overrated. he got an All star nod becuase his had a stellar 2 months between Nov and early January but outside of that he was about average. never mind the fact that IMO being the AHL's best goalie means nothing if you can't sustain it at the NHL level and so far he hasn't. Doesnt' mean I don't think he is good just that I think fans are really overrating not only how good he might be, but how good he has been. Part of the reason I don't agree with the uproar about how he was "handled". He was absolutely the AHL's best goalie for a stretch of months two years ago. And at least a candidate for that year overall. Last year started rough and got much better. I don't think anyone has over-rated him. I don't think most fans know who he is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cross16 Posted January 4, 2016 Report Share Posted January 4, 2016 He was absolutely the AHL's best goalie for a stretch of months two years ago. And at least a candidate for that year overall. Last year started rough and got much better. I don't think anyone has over-rated him. I don't think most fans know who he is. #FreeOrtio was almost trending on Twitter late in October/Early November. I think your under estimating the fan base if you think most don't know who he is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjgallow Posted January 4, 2016 Report Share Posted January 4, 2016 #FreeOrtio was almost trending on Twitter late in October/Early November. I think your under estimating the fan base if you think most don't know who he is. I think you are over-estimating twitter if you think that represents the fan base 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTech780 Posted January 4, 2016 Report Share Posted January 4, 2016 He was absolutely the AHL's best goalie for a stretch of months two years ago. And at least a candidate for that year overall. Last year started rough and got much better. I don't think anyone has over-rated him. I don't think most fans know who he is. This describes why he isn't ready for the NHL, I wouldn't describe him as the best goalie in the AHL, but he can be amongst the best goalies for stretches but he can also be amongst the worst goalies for stretches as well. He has to show more consistency in the AHL before I say he is NHL ready. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjgallow Posted January 4, 2016 Report Share Posted January 4, 2016 This describes why he isn't ready for the NHL, I wouldn't describe him as the best goalie in the AHL, but he can be amongst the best goalies for stretches but he can also be amongst the worst goalies for stretches as well. He has to show more consistency in the AHL before I say he is NHL ready. True. But amongst those dips, there were huge questions of mishandling. As well as injury. I can't prove that he's starter material, nor do I know that. But I do believe several opportunities to develop him that way, and other goaltenders in our system, were squandered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kehatch Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 True. But amongst those dips, there were huge questions of mishandling. As well as injury. I can't prove that he's starter material, nor do I know that. But I do believe several opportunities to develop him that way, and other goaltenders in our system, were squandered. I know you have been an Ortio supporter for years and are attached to him. I also didn't like the Flames holding onto three goalies early and parking Ortio on the bench. But cherry picking a period of time to try and prove he is a great AHL goalie is misleading. So is making excuses for his poor play. He is an AHL veteran. Regardless of what happened in the NHL he should be able to play well in the AHL. Give the player a little credit for having some responsibility for his play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travel_dude Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 True. But amongst those dips, there were huge questions of mishandling. As well as injury. I can't prove that he's starter material, nor do I know that. But I do believe several opportunities to develop him that way, and other goaltenders in our system, were squandered. We had two healthy starters on the Flames last season, except for the period that Ortio played. He was later injured himself. Do you think Ortio would have been able to carry the mail last year with Ramo being the 1a or starter? Instead, he got almost an entire year of development playing most night. About right for a goalie that really hasn't distinguished himself as a NHL goalie yet. This year, the 3 goalie system was a failure, but Ortio did not really distinguish himself as the top guy though TC. After a terrible start by the two top guys, they were under a lot of pressure to win right away. But he got his relief period then a start. 4 GA in his first start. Then another relief and a start. 6 GA in his start. Going to take a lot more wins and stellar outings before he will be considered to be a good option for the Flames. I put his chances of playing on the Flames this season at 25%. If Hiller is traded, that goes up to 50%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjgallow Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 It is interesting to observe the mood swings on this thread. Our goaltenders (3) play poorly, we all criticize the Flames for bringing in 3 goalies. Hiller plays well, we praise the Flames, and criticize Ramo as an inconsistent goaltender. Ramo plays well, we hope to trade Hiller and aplaud/defend the Flames organization. There's only one thing missing from all these scenarios and swings we've had: When is the last time we developed a goalie in the AHL and worked with him to progress into an NHL veteran on the Flames? Anyone know? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowtownguy Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 It is interesting to observe the mood swings on this thread. Our goaltenders (3) play poorly, we all criticize the Flames for bringing in 3 goalies. Hiller plays well, we praise the Flames, and criticize Ramo as an inconsistent goaltender. Ramo plays well, we hope to trade Hiller and aplaud/defend the Flames organization. There's only one thing missing from all these scenarios and swings we've had: When is the last time we developed a goalie in the AHL and worked with him to progress into an NHL veteran on the Flames? Anyone know? I think the last one we successfully developed was Trevor Kidd. Jean Sebastien-Giguere was our draft pick and we dumped him far too soon I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTech780 Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 I think the last one we successfully developed was Trevor Kidd. Jean Sebastien-Giguere was our draft pick and we dumped him far too soon I think. Giguere was drafted by the Whalers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyDeeds Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 Goaltending is the most difficult position to develop for a few reasons. There is really only 1 position for goaltenders to compete for, and two positions they can be put(counting the backup) What goaltender would list a NHL backup as their dream however??. A forward can aspire and work for one of 12 spots on a roster. A defenseman can aspire and work to grab one of 6-7 spots on a roster. Goalies only 2. So you have to ask the question what % of development should go to goaltenders to begin with. Then you have to staff that position with quality prospects and specialty trainers and finally how those promising prospects perform to the top of their abilities when given the opportunity. So JJ I don't know if you are being totally fair to the system. We really did not have a system in place until Dutter gave us a farm team totally to ourselves. Going back farther than that is kind of useless because we had our prospects on a shared farm team. We have not had a lot of time(seasons to develop goaltenders) and the few prospects we have had in the system not had a lot of quality opportunities. Irving and Ortio are the two most Optical Prospects since that time. Was Irving a NHL ready goaltender we ruined or not quite the goaltender he was pumped up to be? We have not given up on Ortio yet so how he ends up remains to be seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowtownguy Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 Giguere was drafted by the Whalers. We did not draft him, but he did spend a few years with our farm club. I think we can take credit for a good part of his development. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kehatch Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 It is interesting to observe the mood swings on this thread. Our goaltenders (3) play poorly, we all criticize the Flames for bringing in 3 goalies. Hiller plays well, we praise the Flames, and criticize Ramo as an inconsistent goaltender. Ramo plays well, we hope to trade Hiller and aplaud/defend the Flames organization. There's only one thing missing from all these scenarios and swings we've had: When is the last time we developed a goalie in the AHL and worked with him to progress into an NHL veteran on the Flames? Anyone know? Your inserting opinions / moods to try and justify your opinion. Nobody is applauding the organization for their management of the goal tending. But you aren't applying any of the blame for the poor play on the player and that's why people aren't agreeing with you. I don't like the way the Flames handled the goal tending this season. I am not a big fan of their success in drafting and developing goal tending as an organization. But that doesn't by default mean I like Ortio or think he is blameless. Or vice versa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjgallow Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 Your inserting opinions / moods to try and justify your opinion. Nobody is applauding the organization for their management of the goal tending. But you aren't applying any of the blame for the poor play on the player and that's why people aren't agreeing with you. I don't like the way the Flames handled the goal tending this season. I am not a big fan of their success in drafting and developing goal tending as an organization. But that doesn't by default mean I like Ortio or think he is blameless. Or vice versa. Fair enough. But actually, I was pointing out some recent Good play of Ortio, and this drew criticism. Like it was a paradox. It's almost like we just expect to fail at developing goaltenders. Since when does blaming prospects get you anywhere? How many times in a row to we focus on the prospect, drafted, and developed, by this organization, and look at it as an individual issue, when the outcome is the same with Every single individual put into that situation? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pucksage Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 Is Hiller ever going to play again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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