Goaltending

[travel_dude]

I agree that it needs to be resolved. Can anyone justify that Ortio gets a start over Hiller or Ramo. BH has said Ortio is 3rd on the charts based off training camp and preseason. Unless we get an injury in a few weeks Ortio will continue to sit. From what I see the odd man out is Ortio. 

 

There was very little said about the depth chart, other than Ortio was 3rd.  What is Hartley going to say.  The guy sitting in the pressbox is obviously #3.  The two starters from last season both are on the team, so they are 1 and 2.

 

BT is going to do something before Halloween.  Whether that means a trade or one of the three waived, it will be resolved.  I really think they are deciding between Ramo and Hiller for being waived/traded.  Yes, Ortio will likely get one of the B2B starts.  He didn;t do well last year against Winnipeg, so he would likely start against the Oilers.

[jjgallow]

Considering the coach wasn't part of the historical issues and he is the one making the decision, yes they are competing hypothesis. But that fact refutes you hypothesis (aka conspiracy theory) entirely anyway.

 

 

that actually has nothing to do with whether they're competing hypothesis.  Half the problem here is that you haven't defined the decision you're arguing about, which makes it easy to think opinions other than your own are wrong, or conspiracies.

 

having 3 goalies on the roster was not a coaching decision.

 

Neither were the contracts of those three goalies, or Gillies, or the lack thereof in recent history.

[JTech780]

The Flames have traditionally feared younger goaltenders, and this tradition goes beyond Kipper.  It's been an issue in the organization since Mike Vernon.

 

I don't believe I've seen Any faith placed in any goaltender under 25 years of age, since Vernon.

 

And it's always a shame to see a significant percentage go on to have huge success elsewhere in the NHL.

 

I Really hope we can finally overcome it this year, but you can still clearly see the reluctancy and the struggle in the organization to do so.

 

Giguere, Reto Berra, Fred Brathwaite, Dwayne Roloson, many many others.

 

I am Really looking forward to Ortio stealing the show. And Gillies too.

 

That's not just a Flames thing that is a league wide thing. 

 

Majority of goalies really don't get a chance to crack an NHL lineup till they are 25, and the biggest reason behind that is that majority of goalies aren't ready to crack an NHL roster before the age of 25.

 

Ortio looked good in preseason, but that is preseason and really has nothing to do with regular season success. If you look at Ortio's numbers at the NHL and AHL levels they are pretty average. He still hasn't proven anything yet. IMO the only reason he is still with the big club is because of his waiver status. If he didn't have to clear waivers to be sent down, he would be in Stockton splitting time with Gillies this year.

[cross16]

The Flames have traditionally feared younger goaltenders, and this tradition goes beyond Kipper.  It's been an issue in the organization since Mike Vernon.

 

I don't believe I've seen Any faith placed in any goaltender under 25 years of age, since Vernon.

 

And it's always a shame to see a significant percentage go on to have huge success elsewhere in the NHL.

 

I Really hope we can finally overcome it this year, but you can still clearly see the reluctancy and the struggle in the organization to do so.

 

Giguere, Reto Berra, Fred Brathwaite, Dwayne Roloson, many many others.

 

I am Really looking forward to Ortio stealing the show. And Gillies too.

 

For real? This is a concern of yours?

 

Fred Brathwaite played really the only above average hockey of his career in Calgary. Reto Berra? The guy that they send to the AHL because he statistically was the worst goalie in the NHL? The same Reto Berra who is barely considered an average back up? Dwayne Roloson was also well below avg in Buffalo and it wasn't until he wound up in Minnisota under the relentless trapping of Jacque Lemaire that he was any good, and keep in mind that system make Manny Fernandez look like a borderline All star. Outside of his playoff run, remember that most people pointed to the goaltneing of the OIlers and Roloson as a major reason for their downfall after that cup run.

 

Jiggy I will give you, but they didn't "give up on him" in the traditional sense they traded him because they were going to lose him to the expansion draft becuse I believe the rules at the time were not going to allow them to protect him. I can't confirm that for you but I recall thats how it went down. At the end of the day, give me an organization and i'll find you players they gave up on too early, thats just the way pro sports works. Every team has their misses and their hits and while some have more then others they are all there.

 

We don't know what goes on behind the sense, but all the matters to me is that at this point out of the 3 Hartley has the least amount of confidence in Ortio. Regardless of what my personal views on that are (and BTW I think its understandable) I'm going to refer to the current Coach of the Year and former pro goalie himself to judge our goalie talent more then a message board. No disrspect meant to anyone just that I think Hartley's credentials speak for himself.

[jjgallow]

I don't have all the answers, and I can see there's a lot of support standing behind the veterans who got us into the second round last year.  I get that, and a lot of good points have been made above.

 

But at the end of the day, at Some point....we have to consider that it's possibly not working.

 

Take that how you like it...say the last two games.  Say the breakdown in last year's playoffs.  Say, ever since 2006 or so.

 

Relying on good veterans, and overplaying them...or relying on mediocre veterans, and switching them off....simply ISN'T getting us where we need to be.

 

Good Coaches do what Good coaches do, to win each game.  Good points made there.  But it becomes difficult to believe that there have been No opportunities to develop any goaltender since Kipper (and we didn't really develop him either).   And as a result, we have not had elite goaltending for ...I would say, 9 years now.  Were it not for Kipper, who was a bit of a fluke, we haven't had one since Vernon.   At least, that we've developed and kept around.

 

Just saying.  Maybe it's true, maybe mediocre goaltending Does give us a better chance of winning one particular game at a time.  But, as the season drags on...man.  I would rather watch a young prospect get shelled for a few games, and get Better, Any Day, than what I've watched over the last few games and years.  Over, and over, and over again.

 

Agree, disagree on the merit...we're going to finally see some real change soon.  And....I CAN'T WAIT, lol.  It's been long enough.

[kehatch]

Looks like Ramo gets the start Friday. A bit disappointed that Ortio doesn't get the call as neither Ramo or Hiller have been good. But Hartley hates running three goalies. With the occasional exception, expect him to run two barring an injury or trade.

[travel_dude]

Looks like Ramo gets the start Friday. A bit disappointed that Ortio doesn't get the call as neither Ramo or Hiller have been good. But Hartley hates running three goalies. With the occasional exception, expect him to run two barring an injury or trade.

 

I doubted that he would start Ortio against Winnipeg.  He was lit up in game #82, even if the Flames dressed their AHL squad.

Winnipeg and Edmonton B2B.  I would suggest that Ortio will get the Oilers.  

[Zirakzigil]

Wouldnt surprise me if Ortio doesnt get any starts and they send him down for conditioning or something like that to the AHL to get a game in. 

[travel_dude]

Wouldnt surprise me if Ortio doesnt get any starts and they send him down for conditioning or something like that to the AHL to get a game in. 

 

They can't send him down for any conditioning stint; he is on the active roster unlike Smid and the others.  

[cross16]

They can't send him down for any conditioning stint; he is on the active roster unlike Smid and the others.  

 

They can as long as Ortio agrees to it. If Ortio says no, then yes they have to expose him to waivers but if he agrees they can send him down for I believe its about 14 days without exposing him to waivers.

 

The NHL does reseve the right to cancel the assignment though if they don't feel its justified however.

[jjgallow]

I doubted that he would start Ortio against Winnipeg.  He was lit up in game #82, even if the Flames dressed their AHL squad.

Winnipeg and Edmonton B2B.  I would suggest that Ortio will get the Oilers.  

 

Agreed, the most likely.

 

Unless....they are actually trying to increase the trade value of one of the vets.   Then they may play them against Oilers.

 

Assuming coach's decision, then Hiller tommorrow, Ortio saturday?

[CheersMan]

Ortio is #3 GT at the moment.  You don’t play a #3 GT while 1A and 1B are both still here and playing reasonably well.  The only reason Ortio is still here is because we can’t risk losing him on waivers………so he sits.  The Flames appear to be trying to maximize the return on one of the two vets by playing them.  IMO, Ortio will not play until either a vet is moved or when the Flames have completely written off one of the vets and expect nothing in return.  In the meantime, Ortio sits and the vets get the work load.

[DirtyDeeds]

Ortio is #3 GT at the moment.  You don’t play a #3 GT while 1A and 1B are both still here and playing reasonably well.  The only reason Ortio is still here is because we can’t risk losing him on waivers………so he sits.  The Flames appear to be trying to maximize the return on one of the two vets by playing them.  IMO, Ortio will not play until either a vet is moved or when the Flames have completely written off one of the vets and expect nothing in return.  In the meantime, Ortio sits and the vets get the work load.

Pretty much this above ^^^^. Flames painted themselves into a corner with this decision to keep 3 in Calgary. Hartley won't play all 3 unless he is getting a string of poor performances from 1 of them.

[Wreckening]

It's a frustrating situation to watch, I can just imagine how it is on all 3 goalies. That's a lot of pressure to put on them when they're trying to win you hockey games and getting you off to a good start to the season. I don't like and haven't liked the idea of carrying 3 goalies. I'm even less enamored with it today. It's a distraction this team doesn't need.

 

As of right now I'm giving the organization a C- on this decision to keep all 3. I understand why it is, I just feel like something needs to be done sooner than later.

[darth_henning]

I presume that we kept all three with the expectation of moving one of the vets, but other teams were more interested in snagging Ortio (or maybe even Gillies) if they wanted to trade at all. 

 

Which leaves us in a bad situation. 

 

Sending Ortio down is a bad idea because 

a) Gillies needs play time

he'll almost certainly not pass waivers

 

Sending Ramo or Hiller down is utterly non-nonsensical (can we even?) as if we're keeping them they're the ones with experience and if we're trading them we need them to play to up their trade value (which right now isn't great based on the first 3 games). 

 

Ottawa might need a goalie with Hamburgler out? Islanders and Sabers also look like they'r ehurting in goal

[travel_dude]

I presume that we kept all three with the expectation of moving one of the vets, but other teams were more interested in snagging Ortio (or maybe even Gillies) if they wanted to trade at all. 

 

Which leaves us in a bad situation. 

 

Sending Ortio down is a bad idea because 

a) Gillies needs play time

he'll almost certainly not pass waivers

 

Sending Ramo or Hiller down is utterly non-nonsensical (can we even?) as if we're keeping them they're the ones with experience and if we're trading them we need them to play to up their trade value (which right now isn't great based on the first 3 games). 

 

Ottawa might need a goalie with Hamburgler out? Islanders and Sabers also look like they'r ehurting in goal

 

 

Waiving Hiller or Ramo is the likely conclusion to this matter.  Once they pass through, they will get assigned to Stockton.  There they will play as much as the situation will allow.  Simpson will get assigned to the ECHL.

 

I am not saying a trade can't or won't be made.  Unless it happens soon, waiving a goalie will likely be the result.  Alternating goalies means that someone get really cold, while the other sit as a backup or play.  Only the starter for the next game will get the full practice time, while the other two alternate.

 

I can't see any situation where they waive Ortio.  A trade is possible, but not a waive.  

[JTech780]

Waiving Hiller or Ramo is the likely conclusion to this matter. Once they pass through, they will get assigned to Stockton. There they will play as much as the situation will allow. Simpson will get assigned to the ECHL.

I am not saying a trade can't or won't be made. Unless it happens soon, waiving a goalie will likely be the result. Alternating goalies means that someone get really cold, while the other sit as a backup or play. Only the starter for the next game will get the full practice time, while the other two alternate.

I can't see any situation where they waive Ortio. A trade is possible, but not a waive.

There is no way Ramo or Hiller go on waivers. I can see Ortio going down once one of Ramo or Hiller get on a roll.

[travel_dude]

There is no way Ramo or Hiller go on waivers. I can see Ortio going down once one of Ramo or Hiller get on a roll.

 

The risk is too high to waive a goalie prospect with NHL experience.  Any team that has waiver exempt player would snatch him up in a second, and demote one of their exempt players.  Think Toronto, or Arizona, or Edmonton, or Buffalo.  Any of those rebuilding teams could afford to so it.

 

The worse thing that could happen to those teams is that they have to offer him back if they try to waive him themselves.  $600k salary is a low hit.  Any one of those teams could demote an existing goalie and still save money.

[kehatch]

There is no way Ramo or Hiller go on waivers. I can see Ortio going down once one of Ramo or Hiller get on a roll.

Horrible decision if they do that. The Flames have two mediocre veterans on 1 year contracts. Keeping both of them over a guy with a future is the wrong thing to do.

If Treliving is absolutely sure he clears then fine. But otherwise no way.

[JTech780]

The risk is too high to waive a goalie prospect with NHL experience. Any team that has waiver exempt player would snatch him up in a second, and demote one of their exempt players. Think Toronto, or Arizona, or Edmonton, or Buffalo. Any of those rebuilding teams could afford to so it.

The worse thing that could happen to those teams is that they have to offer him back if they try to waive him themselves. $600k salary is a low hit. Any one of those teams could demote an existing goalie and still save money.

Toronto already has two goalies, so you can take them off of the list. Buffalo have their own young goalies that it sounds like they are going with. Edmonton just signed two goalies to one way deals and have a third in the minors. Arizona might be the one team that might take a chance on Ortio.

I just don't think Ortio is in that a high demand.

[kehatch]

Classic Ramo tonight. Great game, but then he let's in a horrible horrible goal at the worst possible time.

Goaltending is a weak spot for the club. I don't understand why they don't give Ortio a shot. How many times do we see a kid like that step up? Happens every season. Give it a shot.

Toronto already has two goalies, so you can take them off of the list. Buffalo have their own young goalies that it sounds like they are going with. Edmonton just signed two goalies to one way deals and have a third in the minors. Arizona might be the one team that might take a chance on Ortio.

I just don't think Ortio is in that a high demand.

Goaltending has been terrible for the Flames. Why risk Ortio on waivers so you can keep mediocre goaltending? Especially when both are free agents after this season.

It isn't just about Ortio being waiver eligible. We need a change. We need to know what we have in Ortio. And there is zero reason not to give it a shot.

Ortio should get the start tomorrow. If he doesn't I am concerned.

[travel_dude]

Toronto already has two goalies, so you can take them off of the list. Buffalo have their own young goalies that it sounds like they are going with. Edmonton just signed two goalies to one way deals and have a third in the minors. Arizona might be the one team that might take a chance on Ortio.

I just don't think Ortio is in that a high demand.

 

Toronto has Reimer, who basically keeps losing his starting spot.  I doubt that their GM wants to keep paying $2.3m for a backup.

They are rebuilding and have invested too many seasons in Reimer.  They want to make a chance.

 

Buffalo has a young goalie with little NHL experience.  They are using a backup to carry the mail for now.

 

Edmonton has a rookie goalie that has played one game this season.  They could easily demote him to try out a more established goalie prospect.  It offers them cap relief and would be a thorn in the sides of the Flames.  

 

Those are just 4 teams that are in rebuilds that could easily take a flier on a waiver pickup.  How many other teams are struggling out of the gate?  Ducks?  Columbus?  Devils?  

[swtrooper]

If we did start Ortio,and say he played well,does that mean we would have to waive Hilller or Ramo, or trade one of them? I don't know how this works and am just wondering. I know they are both free agents at the year end so if Ortio played well we could trade one of them for an asset

 

I would take a chance starting Ortio just to see what he can do, this could turn out to be good for us.

[darth_henning]

At this point we're not losing because of the goaltending. 

 

We're losing because we're not scoring. 

 

Outside of the first game against Vancouver, the tenders have been the highlight of the team's play and kept us in it. 

 

we've scored 7 goals in regulation in 4 games. We currently have the 6th fewest in the league (Anaheim has a total of 1 so we're not the only ones struggling)

 

Goals against is also tied for 5th worst. But knock off the 5 from the first game and we jump all the way to a tie for 7th best. 

 

Its not the goaltending that is killing us right now. 

 

 

I want to see what Ortio can do and get him play time, But its not because the others are failing to get it done. But maybe the team will play better in front of Ortio? 

 

If they don't, it doesn't matter who we put in net. 

[swayze67]

_{How can anyone blame Ramo.  He played great.  It was the slugs in front of him that didn't show up.  You can't play the better part of 2 periods inside your own zone and expect to win.  Wideman should have bought a ticket to the game as all he did was watch byfulin (sp?).  How many poor choice passes were attempted only to end up on the stick of the jets.  A very poor performance}