Goaltending

[cccsberg]

34 minutes ago, zima said:

So i will take from the last 2 comments the D in front of Van was spectacular seen all 35 shots and no problem seeing every shot and poor Chad just had no chance on any of those goals. You do realize Calgary did out shoot Van right I might not have seen the game but did listen to the game on the Radio and didn't sound as bad as the score has dictated. Every D will have a bad night there is a reason for a goalie they are expected to stop the puck no? again we did out shoot and play from what I heard on the Radio ? 

 

34 minutes ago, zima said:

So i will take from the last 2 comments the D in front of Van was spectacular seen all 35 shots and no problem seeing every shot and poor Chad just had no chance on any of those goals. You do realize Calgary did out shoot Van right I might not have seen the game but did listen to the game on the Radio and didn't sound as bad as the score has dictated. Every D will have a bad night there is a reason for a goalie they are expected to stop the puck no? again we did out shoot and play from what I heard on the Radio ? 

After watching the full game it seemed to be a fairly even game overall as far as the play went.  The biggest difference in the attacks was that Vancouver had a "high-danger attack" with shots all over the net, one-timers and a couple of tap-ins versus the Flames attack which was primarily throwing lots of pucks on net but mostly low down, few if any high or top-corner shots (2 Vancouver goals) and zero tap-ins.  Watching the game it reminded me so much of Hiller last year where Miller just went down on his knees and blocked everything low.  Flames just couldn't elevate the puck and showed virtually zero creativity.  Not saying CJohnson was great, because sometimes you can stop those chances, but the score is more indicative of team breakdowns and good offence then his terrible play.  

[xstrike]

15 hours ago, jjgallow said:

The Flames have set up the closest we'll ever get to a controlled experiment in hockey.

 

1. They finished last season worst in the league for goals against
2. They changed VERY LITTLE of their team, and almost None of their Defense.  (Controlled environment)
3. They switched out 100% of their goaltending with proven goalies (an admitted upgrade)

 

If goaltending was truly the Main problem last year, then we should see a Dramatic improvement this year.   That is your hypothesis.

I like it. I don't think it will need to be a dramatic improvement. Just a significant one. 30 to 29 isn't significant. 30 to ~20 is.

As for the current tests, I don't think preseason says much either way unless we filter the noise from non-regulars. Might do that at some point.

I look forward to evaluating how the experiment is progressing later though.

[DirtyDeeds]

On 10/7/2016 at 9:21 AM, jjgallow said:

 

OMG lol...you Should be sorry

 

Let's think of this in terms of scientific method then lol...  

 

The Flames have set up the closest we'll ever get to a controlled experiment in hockey.

 

1. They finished last season worst in the league for goals against
2. They changed VERY LITTLE of their team, and almost None of their Defense.  (Controlled environment)
3. They switched out 100% of their goaltending with proven goalies (an admitted upgrade)

 

If goaltending was truly the Main problem last year, then we should see a Dramatic improvement this year.   That is your hypothesis.

 

Preseason is barely an indicator, and not statistically or factually significant.   But it's all we have to go on right now, and ...  yeah...Not looking good for the experiment at the moment.

 

In fairness, none of this matters yet.

 

But I "cough" nonetheless       (because I'm seeing familiar tendencies and habits on the ice that are leading to similar results)

Sounds more like most mechanics.. Got a motor that is missing?..

 

lets change the Spark plugs.. did that fix it?  ..

no? lets change out the distributor... did that help?  no?

lets change out a set of valves... did that help?

 

 

 

[zima]

Hey perhaps the injectors or carb depending on car sounds more like Carb though LOL. I'm not trying to dump all over Chad just saying he hasn't as of yet stood on his head and this team needs that. Saying that most teams need a goalie to do that on occasion that is what a Goalie is for. We didn't get that last yr if we don't get that this yr upchucks north of us will walk all over us they have upgraded in many ways I think getting Russel will help there Back end. Makes then dangerous just saying. 

[travel_dude]

I am all for switching out the goalies.  I would not feel confident entering into this season with Ortio.  Doesn't matter who the defense is, he was not going to get it done.  So, we have two new goalies; Moose who is a gaolie with career numbers near the top, and a backup who managed a winning record on a poor team, while being called into duty as a starter for most of the year.

 

They haven't been played much with the regular team to be able to know who does what or tell the D what they are doing.  You see the D screening the goalie or confused about who takes the puck behind the net.  Let's see how they are in an actual game before we crap on them.

[jjgallow]

5 hours ago, DirtyDeeds said:

Sounds more like most mechanics.. Got a motor that is missing?..

 

lets change the Spark plugs.. did that fix it?  ..

no? lets change out the distributor... did that help?  no?

lets change out a set of valves... did that help?

 

lol....good point

 

We haven't left the shop quite yet....

[jjgallow]

3 hours ago, travel_dude said:

I am all for switching out the goalies.  I would not feel confident entering into this season with Ortio. 

 

Is that so, even as a backup over Chad Johnson?   Because that's been going well?

 

Can't help but mention Ortio's doing just fine in the SHL, and getting better with each game.

http://www.eliteprospects.com/league.php?leagueid=SHL&season=2016#goaltending

 

because switching out goalies has served us out so well in the past?

 

• Laurent Broissoit?   How's that working?  To Our Competitors??
• Reto Berra, another deadbeat, right?
• Even Leland Irving's knocking on the door again.
• Trevor Kidd...
• Dwayne Roloson...another great castoff...
• Giguere was a nice switchout, hey?
• Danny Taylor's one of the top goalies in the KHL, we couldn't get him back if we wanted to (except as a starter)
• Even Karri Ramo, who I was never a fan of,  stands a particularly high chance of biting us in the checking from behind.

 

I know you'll have one of two responses to every one of these:

Response #1:  They were no good and we did the right thing

Response #2:  We knew they were good and we did the right thing because of some complex reason that made sense at the time

 

But never, ever, do we admit to #3:

We made a mistake

 

Admitting you have a problem is the first step.

 

Hey....it's all good right now.   We did our ritual switch-out.   Which has always worked so well in the past.

[DirtyDeeds]

26 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

lol....good point

 

We haven't left the shop quite yet....

Well this season is kinda like drag racing....

 

 

We have a new big block in the car and need to get it tuned just right to compete every race.

[kehatch]

18 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

Is that so, even as a backup over Chad Johnson?   Because that's been going well?

 

Can't help but mention Ortio's doing just fine in the SHL, and getting better with each game.

http://www.eliteprospects.com/league.php?leagueid=SHL&season=2016#goaltending

 

because switching out goalies has served us out so well in the past?

 

• Laurent Broissoit?   How's that working?  To Our Competitors??
• Reto Berra, another deadbeat, right?
• Even Leland Irving's knocking on the door again.
• Trevor Kidd...
• Dwayne Roloson...another great castoff...
• Giguere was a nice switchout, hey?
• Danny Taylor's one of the top goalies in the KHL, we couldn't get him back if we wanted to (except as a starter)
• Even Karri Ramo, who I was never a fan of,  stands a particularly high chance of biting us in the checking from behind.

 

I know you'll have one of two responses to every one of these:

Response #1:  They were no good and we did the right thing

Response #2:  We knew they were good and we did the right thing because of some complex reason that made sense at the time

 

But never, ever, do we admit to #3:

We made a mistake

 

Admitting you have a problem is the first step.

 

Hey....it's all good right now.   We did our ritual switch-out.   Which has always worked so well in the past.

 

You might be the only person on the planet that is still defending Ortio.  I would give you all of the reasons why moving on from Ortio was not only the right decision but also the OBVIOUS and ONLY decision available to the Flames.  But I don't think your into rational arguments when it comes to Ortio.  

 

Instead how about just letting it go?  Or at the very least at least wait until the regular season actually starts before you start the "should a kept Ortio / told you this wouldn't work" arguments?  

[AlbertaBoy12]

57 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

Is that so, even as a backup over Chad Johnson?   Because that's been going well?

 

Can't help but mention Ortio's doing just fine in the SHL, and getting better with each game.

http://www.eliteprospects.com/league.php?leagueid=SHL&season=2016#goaltending

 

because switching out goalies has served us out so well in the past?

 

• Laurent Broissoit?   How's that working?  To Our Competitors??
• Reto Berra, another deadbeat, right?
• Even Leland Irving's knocking on the door again.
• Trevor Kidd...
• Dwayne Roloson...another great castoff...
• Giguere was a nice switchout, hey?
• Danny Taylor's one of the top goalies in the KHL, we couldn't get him back if we wanted to (except as a starter)
• Even Karri Ramo, who I was never a fan of,  stands a particularly high chance of biting us in the checking from behind.

 

 Roman cervenka must be good to, he was the leading scorer in the top czech league last year, we probably made a mistake there.

 

You said ortio is playing on the top team in SHL, but in such a lesser league hes got a .922 save percentage on the top team and 2 wins 2 losses, I wouldnt be praising anything hes doing over there.

 

Leland irving didnt have great stats in the AHL last year, so whose door is he knocking on.

 

danny taylor didnt look great in the czech league last year, but is doing well at the beginning of this year in the KHL at 30 years old, I would say the odds of him coming back to the NHL are small, but I wouldnt say letting him go was a mistake.

 

Laurent brossoit had a good year last year in the AHL, but I wouldnt exactly call him a world beater yet, he got lit up last season when he came up to the NHL, and they sent him back down to get more time in the AAA this year.

 

reto berra was put on waivers, and is playing in the AHL for florida...im not sure where you are going with him.

 

GIve me a break.

[jjgallow]

45 minutes ago, kehatch said:

 

You might be the only person on the planet that is still defending Ortio.  I would give you all of the reasons why moving on from Ortio was not only the right decision but also the OBVIOUS and ONLY decision available to the Flames.  But I don't think your into rational arguments when it comes to Ortio.  

 

Instead how about just letting it go?  Or at the very least at least wait until the regular season actually starts before you start the "should a kept Ortio / told you this wouldn't work" arguments?  

 

Well that was my plan, but Chad Johnson's been speeding things up.

 

Please keep in mind that the goaltending thing has been going on for several years now and for several years now you've been telling me "now is not the right time", or "have patience", or "it's too soon to evaluate", or "you're not looking at the big picture",...

 

and the goaltending has continually and consistently gotten worse over those years.

 

To be completely honest, we are Years past "I told you so".  Yes, this year was an upgrade.  But because of the draft, and because of Elliot.   I've already said that.   The question is how much, was it in the right place, and was it the best long term solution. 

 

I agree that it's too early to bash Johnson, but that's not really what I'm doing.  I'm saying that it's too early to annoint  him, especially with our history.

[jjgallow]

9 minutes ago, AlbertaBoy12 said:

GIve me a break.

 

You missed Giguere among others.   That's really where the arguement should start (or Trevor Kidd).   And it ends with Brossoit.   Say what you want, the Flames clearly want that trade back.   I could disagree with you on those  other points but the bottom line is that we DO have a history of mishandling goaltenders and Everyone on this forum knows it.   That's all I'm saying.   Anyone who rejoices 0 games in over us parting ways with a young goalie, either does not know or chooses to ignore our track record   (and apparently the preseason too).

[Flyerfan52]

2 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

Well that was my plan, but Chad Johnson's been speeding things up.

 

Please keep in mind that the goaltending thing has been going on for several years now and for several years now you've been telling me "now is not the right time", or "have patience", or "it's too soon to evaluate", or "you're not looking at the big picture",...

 

and the goaltending has continually and consistently gotten worse over those years.

 

To be completely honest, we are Years past "I told you so".  Yes, this year was an upgrade.  But because of the draft, and because of Elliot.   I've already said that.   The question is how much, was it in the right place, and was it the best long term solution. 

 

I agree that it's too early to bash Johnson, but that's not really what I'm doing.  I'm saying that it's too early to annoint  him, especially with our history.

FFS. do you not understand that we went from horrible goaltending to what appears to be @ worst average! Ortio was & still is a 0.

Other teams didn't even sign him as a backup for their AHL club. 30 GMs didn't think he'd be handy to have as a 4th option if in dire need.

Ortio just isn't that good!

[jjgallow]

2 minutes ago, Flyerfan52 said:

FFS. do you not understand that we went from horrible goaltending to what appears to be @ worst average! Ortio was & still is a 0.

Other teams didn't even sign him as a backup for their AHL club. 30 GMs didn't think he'd be handy to have as a 4th option if in dire need.

Ortio just isn't that good!

 

It has been a log time since I've gotten a rile out of you!   Hope things are treating you well...clearly the season is approaching

 

Maybe there is a small part of me that wants to turn Ortio into a Meme, yes.  

 

This isn't Really about Ortio.   But he is at the equivalent of NHL backup, or AHL starter right now.   There is no way he would accept 4th option on an NHL team (AHL backup), imho, and that is why he's where he is.

 

What this Is about, is that we went from horrible to average, using the same recipe that got us to horrible in the first place.  And that's my real issue.

[travel_dude]

I didn't realize that we were average.  I thought we were average in 2014/15.  Based on previous results only (because that's all we have right now), we are closer to tops.

 

Maybe it would be best to start a thread about Flames goalie development.  That way we could comment on things that don't impact the Flames this season.  Can talk about how we draft poorly or throw away stars.  Or how we misuse a star and let him flounder in the AHL or overseas.  

 

[Flyerfan52]

6 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

It has been a log time since I've gotten a rile out of you!   Hope things are treating you well...clearly the season is approaching

 

Maybe there is a small part of me that wants to turn Ortio into a Meme, yes.  

 

This isn't Really about Ortio.   But he is at the equivalent of NHL backup, or AHL starter right now.   There is no way he would accept 4th option on an NHL team (AHL backup), imho, and that is why he's where he is.

 

What this Is about, is that we went from horrible to average, using the same recipe that got us to horrible in the first place.  And that's my real issue.

In the NHL a big (but not only) part of winning is goaltending. Average goaltending > horrible & gives a chance to win games.

If skaters aren't playing in fear of the 'tender giving up a goal every time they haven't got got the puck on their stick they feel freer to pass the black disc. That only increases scoring chances & it's easier to protect a lead than play from behind trying to catch up.

 

& if Ortio is your backup you better pray your goalie never suffers an injury.  Think back to the Kipper days when players gripped their sticks tighter & wore grimaces every time anyone else was in net as they were scared the smallest mistake would lead to a GA. A reliable goalie has brought Chicago & LA Stanley Cups. I'd argue neither is a top 10 but the confidence the players have in them turns the trick.

[kehatch]

16 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

Well that was my plan, but Chad Johnson's been speeding things up.

 

Please keep in mind that the goaltending thing has been going on for several years now and for several years now you've been telling me "now is not the right time", or "have patience", or "it's too soon to evaluate", or "you're not looking at the big picture",...

 

and the goaltending has continually and consistently gotten worse over those years.

 

To be completely honest, we are Years past "I told you so".  Yes, this year was an upgrade.  But because of the draft, and because of Elliot.   I've already said that.   The question is how much, was it in the right place, and was it the best long term solution. 

 

I agree that it's too early to bash Johnson, but that's not really what I'm doing.  I'm saying that it's too early to annoint  him, especially with our history.

 

Johnson was good helming his team as the number 1 when his guy got hurt last season. Ortio was the worst of the worst in Calgary. Meanwhile your using 3 games off of a stat sheet and a couple of preseason games to go into multi pate justification of why moving on from Ortio was a bad idea. Big picture? Small picture? Complete mirage? 

[AlbertaBoy12]

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

 

You missed Giguere among others.   That's really where the arguement should start (or Trevor Kidd).   And it ends with Brossoit.   Say what you want, the Flames clearly want that trade back.   I could disagree with you on those  other points but the bottom line is that we DO have a history of mishandling goaltenders and Everyone on this forum knows it.   That's all I'm saying.   Anyone who rejoices 0 games in over us parting ways with a young goalie, either does not know or chooses to ignore our track record   (and apparently the preseason too).

The only person you listed was JSG, hes the only one whos had an NHL career after leaving the flames that was successful in any way.

Whats there to disagree on? the stats are the stats, and if you were right im pretty sure an NHL team would have signed these so called gems by now.

 

I really doubt you are so right about ortio, and every NHL team just doesnt see what you see. As others have said if he was an NHL backup/AHL starter, with the upside you seem to think he has someone would have signed him to an NHL Deal.

 

Why do the flames want the brossoit trade back? Brossoit hasent done anything. 

[jjgallow]

5 hours ago, travel_dude said:

I didn't realize that we were average.  I thought we were average in 2014/15.  Based on previous results only (because that's all we have right now), we are closer to tops.

 

Maybe it would be best to start a thread about Flames goalie development.  That way we could comment on things that don't impact the Flames this season.  Can talk about how we draft poorly or throw away stars.  Or how we misuse a star and let him flounder in the AHL or overseas.  

 

 

That's not a bad idea actually, to have a thread about goaltender development.

 

That being said, imho that was more the original intent of this thread.

 

In my mind, the thread that is missing is a "Brian Elliot" thread, or a 'Game Day Goalie" thread.   People do definitely get worked up on here when goalies in the system are talked about that aren't relative to the next game.   But maybe that's because a thread doesn't exist  strictly for what they want to talk about.

 

With regards to our pre-season play, Brian Elliot has been extremely good....then again, most starters who are played in the pre-season are.   IMHO it is more a reflection of playing our starter heavily in the pre-season.   I'm not saying Elliot is average.  IMHO he is top 5 in the league.   But it remains to be seen if he will appear that way with this team in the regular season.

 

[kehatch]

The bottom line is that the Flames are in a great situation regarding their goalies. We have a very good tandem for a budget price, a number of strong goalies in the system, and flexibility with term. The latter is important to gauge how quickly Gilles comes along as well as to be able to take advantage of the expansion rules. 

 

JJ, you have been singing the same doom and gloom song for years. You claimed the Flames weren't going to be able to solve the immediate issue via free agency and trade.  Now that they have it seems like you are trying to skew the facts so you can avoid being wrong. 

 

Jumping on Johnson based on a couple of preseason games to tell us told you so about Ortio is what is setting people off. It isn't the talk about development. 

 

Ortio has been good in 4 games in a fourth tier league. But he wasn't good in the NHL. He wasn't good in the AHL. He wasn't offered an NHL or AHL contract. He isn't playing for an elite league overseas. It's time to acknowledge that maybe, just maybe, he isn't an NHL caliber goalie. 

 

Meanwhile Johnson is a proven NHL back up on a one year deal with a low cap hit. It's a low risk and safe bet, something critical for a team thst needs some stability in net. A couple of rough preseason games doesn't diminish that. Win/lose/draw he is a much better bet then Ortio. 

[jjgallow]

14 hours ago, kehatch said:

JJ, you have been singing the same doom and gloom song for years. You claimed the Flames weren't going to be able to solve the immediate issue via free agency and trade.  Now that they have it seems like you are trying to skew the facts so you can avoid being wrong. 

 

1.  I don't sing

 

2.  You can make me out to be negative, if you want.   But having that angle on it doesn't change the fact that it's been relatively accurate.

 

3.   I did not think they'd be able to acquire someone like Elliot for what they paid, that is true.  I can't argue with it and in that sense I was wrong.

            But that doesn't explain Rittich, Johnson, etc.  Those acquisitions are reminiscent of the pattern the Flames have followed.

 

4.  Even with Elliot (I admit it was a good value deal), the Flames are relying on acquiring older goalies which will likely never contribute to a plan to win a cup.

 

5.   Defence still remains inadequate to be a contender, imho.  By the time this is addressed, none of the goalies we're talking about now, will ever matter.  Except, MAYBE....Parsons.  If they don't cast him away by then too (I already see a lack of development plan for Gillies).

 

Point #5, is I suppose, the kind of "doom and gloom" you refer to, which, yes, you are right, I have been claiming for many, many years now...

 

Accurately.  And consistently.   Through playoff runs, and droughts.

 

You call it negative, I call it the first step to a solution:  Admitting there's a  problem.

[kehatch]

Nobody is criticizing you because you are negative or talking development. Stop playing the victim card. I don't agree with you. It's thst simple. An 1000 word essay of logic leaps and random stats and hyperbole isn't going to change that. 

 

You used a few early games in a tier 4 league and a couple of preseason games to come to a conclusion. You ignored the body of work that preceded that but accused others of failing to see the big picture. I don't just disagree with your conclusions, I disagree with how you get there.

 

The Flames wouldn't be better with Ortio over Johnson. Given our strong tandem and prospects we have in the system the Flames are not in a bad place RE goaltending. In fact Elliott is one of the top tenders in the NHL and Gilles is probably the top goaltending prospect. 

 

It seems ridiculous to cry doom and gloom because the Flames didn't retain a goalie that nobody in any top league wanted. It seems doubly ridiculous to be doing that on October 9. 

[conundrumed]

22 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

You missed Giguere among others.   That's really where the arguement should start (or Trevor Kidd).   And it ends with Brossoit.   Say what you want, the Flames clearly want that trade back.   I could disagree with you on those  other points but the bottom line is that we DO have a history of mishandling goaltenders and Everyone on this forum knows it.   That's all I'm saying.   Anyone who rejoices 0 games in over us parting ways with a young goalie, either does not know or chooses to ignore our track record   (and apparently the preseason too).

I was never terribly down on Ortio, but he was coming off of a 1 way. Is he getting another this year? Not on your life.

Doesn't hurt to keep the position liquid until you find a final answer.

[jjgallow]

On 07/10/2016 at 9:28 AM, cross16 said:

 

Flames Preseason ranking:

 

10th in Goals Against

2nd in Goals Against Average

 

No, that experiment looks terrible. Sure looks to me like goaltending isn't making a difference. 

 

Waits a minutes...

 

I haves a question.

 

I count 16 goals against us in 7 games.

http://www.cbssports.com/nhl/stats/teamsort/nhl/year-2016-season-preseason-category-goalsagainstaverage

 

Under what math did we finish 2nd in the league for goals against average, with a 1.27?

 

[jjgallow]

2 hours ago, kehatch said:

It seems ridiculous to cry doom and gloom because the Flames didn't retain a goalie that nobody in any top league wanted. It seems doubly ridiculous to be doing that on October 9. 

 

ok, that's cool, I will just point out that around this time last year I expressed my concerns about goaltending and I'm Fairly certain you also told me at that time that it was "not the time".   Anyway, for me this isn't really about Ortio, or even this season, and of course I think we'll have improved goaltending this year.

 

Just, not Enough of an improvement to make us a contender.   And, I  still don't see the steps that need to be taken to make us a contender in the future.  

 

Nobody's predicting doom and gloom for this season.   It's mediocrity that is the concern, followed by decline in subsequent years if no plan is laid out.   Basically more of the same, because we're seeing more of the same short term decisions to patch things up.