Goaltending

[kehatch]

Available to the Flames next year are:

Gillies

McDonald

RFA's

Poulin

Ortio

Schneider is too young for the AHL, so he goes back to junior.

Even if we were to sign Poulin, we still have Stockton and the ECHL to develop goalies. So, I also can't see anything blocking development of goalies. So, we could have the following:

NHL - Starter/Ortio

AHL - Gillies/Poulin

ECHL - McDonald

Alternatively, you don't have to sign Poulin, so you have Gillies and McDonald in the AHL.

I am with you. That puts all of your goalies in the best position to develop and it gives you the depth you need in goal.

The big question is who is the starter and we won't know that until the draft at the earliest. But clearly we need someone.

[cross16]

I think the debate is more around addressing it.   Do we fix it by bringing someone in, or do we develop it in-house?    My perspective on this, is that the best Long term solution is to Build goaltending in-house through development.   From what we've already seen from Ortio, it's becoming clear that it would cost a Lot to bring in something Better than he's already providing.  And they would likely be older, and slow down Ortio's development as well as the developmet of other goalies in our system.   I think you need to build a system around your goaltenders and that's why I don't want short term solutions.  Also, I don't think this stops at Ortio.  Obviously Gillies and potentially others are a Huge part of the conversation as well.

 

 

Its obvoiusly prefered to develop in house thre is little question about that. As i've said to you many times, and most agree, that Ortio is going to be part of the conversation and compeition next year but they still need another guy as there is not an inhouse option who can compete for the job next year. Now who that external option is yes I agree is debatable as its hard to know who is actually available. We can speculate, but thats all it is is speculate but there is on questions the Flames need an external option to compete with Ortio. The main point i'm trying to make is with Ortio and another guy that Flames can easily compete for the playofs next year.

Whether you want to pay alot for someone like Bishop or pay a little less for someone like a Keumper is open but someone who can play at the NHL level is necessary. If you can get an answer, like Bishop or Matt Murray for example than great, otherwise get someone who can be part of the solution for the next 3-4 years and let guys like Ortio, Gilles, McDonald still compete for the job. its not a complicated issue. 

 

I won't go through the D because we arn't even on the same page. I don't udnerstand your view of this D core at all but let's not spend time and just agree to disagree. the flames big 3 on D should be good for the next 5-6 years. 

[jjgallow]

Now who that external option is yes I agree is debatable as its hard to know who is actually available. We can speculate, but thats all it is is speculate 

 

This part is key.   If there were free stanley cup winning goaltenders up for grabs, none of us would be arguing (about this.  We'd find something else to argue about).

 

I'm more optimistic about our current prospects in net.  There's a difference there.  But at the end of the day, I would take another goalie for the right deal just like everyone else.   We can't afford Bishop's salary, we can't afford to trade for Murray, Kuemper would be great for the Right price, but imho, he is only a Minor upgrade on Ortio, and who will be better next year is a tossup.   You're mostly paying for a guy who was given experience while Ortio wasn't.  That's the biggest difference.  If we get him for a 3rd rounder great, but there's basically zero chance of that.

 

When you go through the numbers and the costs and the feasibility, an Ortio/Ramo combo (if Ramo can recover) Isn't the Horrible idea it's made out be.   Ramo's got us into the playoffs before, he can do it again, and Ortio can probably better him.  More importantly, Gillies isn't likely far off.  No, it's not Perfect.   I'd love to have more.   But it's Not preventing the Flames from making the playoffs.  It's just not, and we saw that last year.   If we get some Amazing deal, yeah.   I'm in.  But patience is not the worst thing in the world.

[MAC331]

How many here thought Ramo was on a path to be resigned and Ortio the back up for next year ?

[DirtyDeeds]

How many here thought Ramo was on a path to be resigned and Ortio the back up for next year ?

I had Ramo as a possible backup. His much better play had earned that but I am not sure he would have considered a drop in pay to be our backup. With his injury who can know if he will ever recover? I hope he does but it is unlikely to be in time to with the Flames.

 

Ortio has taken over this same role now in my mind. Starter? no.. not yet. He is reasonable cost now but will he take a similar wage next year too?

 

As for the 2 of them I don't think Ramo was much in the plans and same with Ortio until lately. I can see Ortio maybe getting an offer for next season but not as a starter.

[JTech780]

This part is key. If there were free stanley cup winning goaltenders up for grabs, none of us would be arguing (about this. We'd find something else to argue about).

I'm more optimistic about our current prospects in net. There's a difference there. But at the end of the day, I would take another goalie for the right deal just like everyone else. We can't afford Bishop's salary, we can't afford to trade for Murray, Kuemper would be great for the Right price, but imho, he is only a Minor upgrade on Ortio, and who will be better next year is a tossup. You're mostly paying for a guy who was given experience while Ortio wasn't. That's the biggest difference. If we get him for a 3rd rounder great, but there's basically zero chance of that.

When you go through the numbers and the costs and the feasibility, an Ortio/Ramo combo (if Ramo can recover) Isn't the Horrible idea it's made out be. Ramo's got us into the playoffs before, he can do it again, and Ortio can probably better him. More importantly, Gillies isn't likely far off. No, it's not Perfect. I'd love to have more. But it's Not preventing the Flames from making the playoffs. It's just not, and we saw that last year. If we get some Amazing deal, yeah. I'm in. But patience is not the worst thing in the world.

Ramo wasn't the goalie that got us to the playoffs last year. He only won 15 games. Hiller was the goalie who got us to the playoffs.

A tandem of Ramo/Ortio gets back to the bottom 5 not anywhere near the playoffs.

[The_Argus]

How many here thought Ramo was on a path to be resigned and Ortio the back up for next year ?

 

I probably would have been fine with that, but now with Ramo's big injury, I think there's just too much uncertainty to rely on him. Ortio has been decent, so at this point, I think you cut ties with Ramo, and go with Ortio and the best goalie you can find (for a reasonable price) in the off season as your duo for next year.

 

I think a Ramo/Ortio tandem would have the potential to be solid or even very good, but at the same time, it's hard to justify bringing back 2 out of 3 of the worst goal-tending squad in the league this season (even if it's the better 2 of the 3). And that's even aside from Ramo's injury.

[Flyerfan52]

Ortio has fewer then 40 NHL games played and none of the other prospects are ready. No other goalies are signed. On D we have Brodie, Giordano, and Hamilton signed long term. Clearly we need a goalie more then we need a D.

I don't agree with your conclusion that poor team defence this season = Flames need at least one more elite defensive prospect. That math doesn't add up in my opinion. But even if I did agree with that it doesn't change the reality of our situation in goal going into next season. I don't understand this idea that we fix one thing a season. I also don't agree that getting a goalie necessarily is cost prohibitive or that getting another goalie blocks our opportunity to develop a goalie internally.

We've got 3 of 4 top D but no goalie.

Given my druthers I'd rather have a dang good goalie rather than that 4th top D.

[travel_dude]

Just throwing this out there....

 

Hiller is backup tonight, so I am guessing that he gets the next start.  Hartley feels he owes him that.  And I would also be surprised if Backstrom doesn't get the start against the Wild.  Both guys had rough outings and Hartley has shown a tendency to reward hard work in practice as much as who played well.  

 

If this was do or die, I would question it.  Right now, I think it's just about giving a player a proper send off.  

[darth_henning]

Agreed. At this point a Loss only helps our draft position. 

 

We basically know that Ortio can play close to league average since call up, so is probably a reasonable player to sign on a 1 year "show me" contract for next season. 

 

2 games more or less at this point isn't going to change that unless he keeps getting shutouts. And even then its a marginal uptick in dollar value. 

 

Hiller and Backstrom are both likely done in the NHL at the end of this season, no point in punishing them for that. It happens to every player eventually. Give them a sendoff. 

 

Obviously this would be different if we were in the wildcard mix, but we're not. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As to Ramo for next year. Had he not been injured and finished out the year with his play, we probably would have re-signed him. But we wouldn't have gotten this look at Ortio. 

 

Personally, I'd rather take a chance on Ortio (who has similar numbers, albeit in fewer games) as he has the potential to stick around for a few years and contribute. While Ramo is a solid quantity and not likely to improve or be here long term. 

 

 

Additionally, that injury will take months to rehab. He may not even be ready to start the season (I've heard rumors of Oct/Nov, which is on the higher end of rehab time, but not impossible). How he plays after an injury like that is also an unknown. That leg will always be a little weaker from now on, and that could definitely impact his play style in the negative. 

[kehatch]

Just throwing this out there....

Hiller is backup tonight, so I am guessing that he gets the next start. Hartley feels he owes him that. And I would also be surprised if Backstrom doesn't get the start against the Wild. Both guys had rough outings and Hartley has shown a tendency to reward hard work in practice as much as who played well.

If this was do or die, I would question it. Right now, I think it's just about giving a player a proper send off.

My preference is to just give Ortio the remaining starts. But it doesn't matter all that much at this point I guess.

[travel_dude]

My preference is to just give Ortio the remaining starts. But it doesn't matter all that much at this point I guess.

 

I don't recommend it but you know ol' Bob.  It's also a classy move IMHO.

[jjgallow]

We've got 3 of 4 top D but no goalie.

Given my druthers I'd rather have a dang good goalie rather than that 4th top D.

 

Nicely summed up.  I do agree ont the goaltender priority.

 

But at the end of the day, we're short one position at each.

 

I'd rather get Both positions secured for the next 10 years.  I am a lot more concerned with that, than the first 20 games of next season.   Both are possible.   But not if we do something silly to fill one (huge trade, or massive cap hit).

[travel_dude]

Nicely summed up.  I do agree ont the goaltender priority.

 

But at the end of the day, we're short one position at each.

 

I'd rather get Both positions secured for the next 10 years.  I am a lot more concerned with that, than the first 20 games of next season.   Both are possible.   But not if we do something silly to fill one (huge trade, or massive cap hit).

 

So you want to expend a lot of assets to gain another top 4D, and possibly lose one to expansion?

 

The other thing is you constantly talk about developing from within for goaltending, but you feel we have to go get a another defense?  Defense takes potentially less time, plus we have a ton more possible candidates. 

[jjgallow]

So you want to expend a lot of assets to gain another top 4D, and possibly lose one to expansion?

 

The other thing is you constantly talk about developing from within for goaltending, but you feel we have to go get a another defense?  Defense takes potentially less time, plus we have a ton more possible candidates. 

 

That is completely true, except, opposite, from my current understanding of proposals.

 

4 D can be retained.  I'm saying we need 4 young core D.   We have 2.   TJ Brodie and Hamilton.   We're in no danger of losing a young core D in the expansion draft.   And if we were, we would trade a veteran.

 

1 G can be retained.   We have 2 strong prospects in Gillies and Ortio.  With Schneider showing signs he may have been a sleeper.  Not a great time to bring in an older goalie, unless they're an upgraded prospect.   If one of our prospects turn out, and they probably will by then, any veteran goalie brought in will be left unprotected.

 

D and G both take a Long time to develop.  But D is a long, committed process.  Goaltending has a Voodoo component.  Kipper being a prime example.   And there are always bucketloads available if  a team is willing to gamble on them.   Not so with D.

[darth_henning]

That is completely true, except, opposite, from my current understanding of proposals.

 

4 D can be retained.  I'm saying we need 4 young core D.   We have 2.   TJ Brodie and Hamilton.   We're in no danger of losing a young core D in the expansion draft.   And if we were, we would trade a veteran.

 

1 G can be retained.   We have 2 strong prospects in Gillies and Ortio.  With Schneider showing signs he may have been a sleeper.  Not a great time to bring in an older goalie, unless they're an upgraded prospect.   If one of our prospects turn out, and they probably will by then, any veteran goalie brought in will be left unprotected.

 

D and G both take a Long time to develop.  But D is a long, committed process.  Goaltending has a Voodoo component.  Kipper being a prime example.   And there are always bucketloads available if  a team is willing to gamble on them.   Not so with D.

6 forward and 3 D can be retained. OR 8 total players. 

 

So to protect a 4th D we have to protect TWO fewer forwards. 

 

That's not a good idea. 

 

 

 

Any veteran goalie brought in will be unprotected. Yep. And? We don't need a veteran for 10 years. We need him for the next couple until Gillies,Macdonald, Schneider or Ortio can take that role. 

 

We're not going to land a top-end goalie so the chances of losing him isn't going to be high. An expansion team will want the best goalie they can get unprotected, a couple backups and a few development prospects. Its unlikely we lose one at all. 

 

D is a long term project. One for which we have a variety of candidates. No, not next year. But within a couple or three when it really matters. 

[jjgallow]

We're not going to land a top-end goalie so the chances of losing him isn't going to be high. 

 

What are we even arguing about then, lol?  Yeah if we just bring Ramo back or sign someone else for a million bucks, sure.  Why not, until Gillies starts knocking.  I'd still prefer to have another young prospect in there but it's all the same.

 

I'm pretty sure the premise of this discussion is bringing in a top -end goalie, though.   And either paying in assets, or with cap.  Or both.

 

Good to know about the 8 total players.  Except, we're still fine at D.   Hamilton, Brodie, x.

 

Gio may not be here.  If he is, he'll be 34-35 years of age.  With a MASSIVE contract running to 2021.  And a NTC.  May not even need to protect NTC players.    And, either way, nobody would take the back end of that contract as he approaches 40.  If they did, it would help us.  Sorry but true.

[travel_dude]

That is completely true, except, opposite, from my current understanding of proposals.

 

4 D can be retained.  I'm saying we need 4 young core D.   We have 2.   TJ Brodie and Hamilton.   We're in no danger of losing a young core D in the expansion draft.   And if we were, we would trade a veteran.

 

1 G can be retained.   We have 2 strong prospects in Gillies and Ortio.  With Schneider showing signs he may have been a sleeper.  Not a great time to bring in an older goalie, unless they're an upgraded prospect.   If one of our prospects turn out, and they probably will by then, any veteran goalie brought in will be left unprotected.

 

D and G both take a Long time to develop.  But D is a long, committed process.  Goaltending has a Voodoo component.  Kipper being a prime example.   And there are always bucketloads available if  a team is willing to gamble on them.   Not so with D.

 

Funny, I read it was either 3D+7F+1G or 8 skaters + 1 goalie.

 

So the NTC players are protected, so you can;t expose Gio (foolish to do so anyway).  

 

Option 1:

Gio + Brodie + Hamilton

Monahan + Gaudreau + Backlund + Frolik + Bennett + Stajan + 1 other

Newest goalie, unless Ortio steals #1 during next season.

 

Option 2:

Gio + Brodie + Hamilton + Monahan + Gaudreau + Backlund + Stajan + Bennett 

Newest goalie or Ortio 

 

I prefer option 1.  Ortio would only be selected if he happened to win the starter job.  There are far more experienced backup goalies that an expansion team would select.

[jjgallow]

So the NTC players are protected, so you can;t expose Gio (foolish to do so anyway).  

 

Oooh....that I didn't realize.  Well that sucks.  All it means, though, is you'd be targetting a D with <2 years of pro experience.  Which I would have wanted to anyway.

[kehatch]

Nicely summed up. I do agree ont the goaltender priority.

But at the end of the day, we're short one position at each.

I'd rather get Both positions secured for the next 10 years. I am a lot more concerned with that, than the first 20 games of next season. Both are possible. But not if we do something silly to fill one (huge trade, or massive cap hit).

No team has a completed roster good for 10 years. You are over thinking it. We have a solid top 3D and no starting goalie. We need a starting goalie.

[DirtyDeeds]

Why would we spend the resources to get a top goaltender and then leave him unprotected the next season?

 

Frankly Ortio cleared waivers, so why would anyone draft him in an expansion draft? No doubt in my mind Ortio would be left unprotected at his present level of play. He might be used before in a trade but I can't see him being protected in the expansion draft unless he becomes supergoalie next season.

 

It is still up in the air of the draft(assuming there is one), still up in the air how many expansion teams actually drafting(with the Quebec group balking with funding)

[jjgallow]

Why would we spend the resources to get a top goaltender and then leave him unprotected the next season?

 

Frankly Ortio cleared waivers, so why would anyone draft him in an expansion draft? No doubt in my mind Ortio would be left unprotected at his present level of play. He might be used before in a trade but I can't see him being protected in the expansion draft unless he becomes supergoalie next season.

 

It is still up in the air of the draft(assuming there is one), still up in the air how many expansion teams actually drafting(with the Quebec group balking with funding)

 

Ortio might be left unprotected now (if we had to protect Gillies), but it would be a tough call.   He Definitely wouldn't clear waivers again (despite last night's game).

 

I didn't say who we Would protect.    But by that time, we had Better have a young goalie worth protecting.  Possibly Gillies.   The only way I see that Not happening if if Gillies and Ortio both let us down, and Schneider surprises everyone to emerge as our top G prospect, also with <3 pro seasons.  But I'm basing that remote possibility on like 3 AHL games.  Not likely at this stage.

 

The point is, the expansion draft will not be kind to teams that over-goalie themselves (as we understand it now).

No team has a completed roster good for 10 years. You are over thinking it. We have a solid top 3D and no starting goalie. We need a starting goalie.

 

So we shouldn't aim for that then?  

 

Chicago and LA both did, coming out of their rebuilds, imho.  Or extremely close.

 

They didn't get to where they are by patching things.

[MAC331]

What are we even arguing about then, lol?  Yeah if we just bring Ramo back or sign someone else for a million bucks, sure.  Why not, until Gillies starts knocking.  I'd still prefer to have another young prospect in there but it's all the same.

 

I'm pretty sure the premise of this discussion is bringing in a top -end goalie, though.   And either paying in assets, or with cap.  Or both.

 

Good to know about the 8 total players.  Except, we're still fine at D.   Hamilton, Brodie, x.

 

Gio may not be here.  If he is, he'll be 34-35 years of age.  With a MASSIVE contract running to 2021.  And a NTC.  May not even need to protect NTC players.    And, either way, nobody would take the back end of that contract as he approaches 40.  If they did, it would help us.  Sorry but true.

You know how ironic this all sounds. Only a contender would take on Giordano and his contract later on, are we not planning to be that contender ? the plan should be to keep him playing with elite talent that he can support now and support him later.

[jjgallow]

You know how ironic this all sounds. Only a contender would take on Giordano and his contract later on, are we not planning to be that contender ? the plan should be to keep him playing with elite talent that he can support now and support him later.

 

He is part of that plan, yes.    But he isn't untouchable.    And his contract will be an issue in coming years unless he pulls off a Lidstrom.

 

Anyway, it's likely a moot point, ironic or not, because I misunderstood the current proposal with regards to NTCs.  But a Giordano trade shouldn't and won't ever be ruled out completely.  It would obviously be a question of how good any offer was, and what Gio's plans are.

[travel_dude]

Last night we saw a different Ortio.  None of the goals let in were well defended.  Very sub-par.  Defense was non-existent at times, but he has to make those stops.  Andreoff's was the weakest.  Carter's should have been a easy stop.  Lucic's were nothing that dangerous. Versteeg's was a matter of losing track and Ortio knocking it in himself.

 

Two games against the Kings, 8 goals against.  Whether that is a fluke, bad defense or poor effort, it can't continue next season if we want to win more than 50% of the games with a backup in nets.