Goaltending

[robrob1974]

I am still in the belief that with a starter we aren't a playoff team. We are just not built like the Ducks, Kings and even the Sharks yet. The Central is far too good right now too to be penciling us in any of the wildcard spots.

There are too many holes. I am not saying don't get the starter, because we need one, and I want a great one too. But this team is far from where we want it to be. Far sound like a long ways to go, but I think it means we are 2-3 years away. We may have one or two more playoff misses before we get back on the track we thought we were on after last year's success.

I am just trying to be a realist. If we are filling needs with home growns, then we still have to get those players developed to fill the important roles.

With a goalie, we will be within 5 points striking distance but still miss, I think.

[MAC331]

I am still in the belief that with a starter we aren't a playoff team. We are just not built like the Ducks, Kings and even the Sharks yet. The Central is far too good right now too to be penciling us in any of the wildcard spots.

There are too many holes. I am not saying don't get the starter, because we need one, and I want a great one too. But this team is far from where we want it to be. Far sound like a long ways to go, but I think it means we are 2-3 years away. We may have one or two more playoff misses before we get back on the track we thought we were on after last year's success.

I am just trying to be a realist. If we are filling needs with home growns, then we still have to get those players developed to fill the important roles.

With a goalie, we will be within 5 points striking distance but still miss, I think.

I disagree, I think we are a goalie, a fix for RW and a dose of maturity/experience away from being a consistent threat. How fortunate are we to have our young core in being productive this early ? Gaudreau and Monahan need a RW talent that is his own threat creating more room for the whole line. Colborne, Backlund and Frolik have emerged as a very effective line. Now we need to get Bennett the proper linemates in order to have another serious scoring line the opposition needs to worry about. Our 4th line if they move Stajan could be Bouma, Grant and Hathaway, no arguments for having these 3 as an energy line.

Defense right now is well equipped to be very good. I know many want to see Wideman and / or Engelland moved and that may happen but even then we will have capable players to pair up.

Goalie is where we need to vastly improve and I have to say Ortio is impressing right now and if we could pair I'm up with someone like Elliott we may have an answer.

[tincup1]

I also agree that the Flames are a good no. 1 goalie away from competing for the playoffs.  Throw in a top line RW, and we might be a threat.  Ortio and Ramo have shown flashes and when they do, this team is competitive with pretty much anyone except maybe the Chicago/Anaheims.  BT's biggest challenge is obviously strengthening the goalie position and that means more than one guy.  They need better everything in goal: coaching, prospects and a no. 1.  I guess they're no bad enough to snag one of those Finns...unless the lottery goes our way.

[MAC331]

I also agree that the Flames are a good no. 1 goalie away from competing for the playoffs.  Throw in a top line RW, and we might be a threat.  Ortio and Ramo have shown flashes and when they do, this team is competitive with pretty much anyone except maybe the Chicago/Anaheims.  BT's biggest challenge is obviously strengthening the goalie position and that means more than one guy.  They need better everything in goal: coaching, prospects and a no. 1.  I guess they're no bad enough to snag one of those Finns...unless the lottery goes our way.

Yes we need better goaltending but on top of this if we cannot out muscle our opposition in front of our net we need to have a way better puck possession game and stay out of the box.

[cross16]

No one is saying a that upgrading goalie will fix everything or solve all the flames problems. Of course there is more to do, but upgrading in net jus happens to be the biggest priority, IMO of course, and the one that will have the most impact. As I said earlier I think with an upgrade in net this is a playoff bubble team but it's also another big step from being a playoff bubble team to being a contender. That's where the rest of the improvement needs to take place.

Goalie is not a cure all and no one says it is. It's just the biggest improvement they can make to the team and the most significant.

[robrob1974]

No one is saying a that upgrading goalie will fix everything or solve all the flames problems. Of course there is more to do, but upgrading in net jus happens to be the biggest priority, IMO of course, and the one that will have the most impact. As I said earlier I think with an upgrade in net this is a playoff bubble team but it's also another big step from being a playoff bubble team to being a contender. That's where the rest of the improvement needs to take place.

Goalie is not a cure all and no one says it is. It's just the biggest improvement they can make to the team and the most significant.

Yes, and that's all I am saying and agree we NEED that goalie the most. But we have so much work in other areas that I can't see it vaulting us into the playoffs as much as, like I said earlier, probably get us around 5 points out.

I am fine with it. I want more, but I think it's just reality and cautioning against the idea, not getting us ahead of ourselves. I am a realist.

I think it's great the young guys are performing. I just see so many holes still and I think it's about an extra year away.

Last year all we added was Hamilton, Frolik, Nakladal. We are seeing what the last guy can do now at the end.

I also agree, when the team plays as five man units consistently, we are close. But we saw how hard that is to do in the NHL when other teams take us seriously. Which I don't think happened last year when we made the playoffs.

[jjgallow]

Stop hitting enter twice after each sentence lol.

I sure wouldn't argue the point though.

It goes both ways.

Ward, Andersson et. al.

Those aren't answers, they're prayers.

I'm on the fence, I really don't know.

We need wingers, do we need them before G or no?

I'm almost of the mind of, "prioritize the wings".

But many are so hung up on, "we'll draft next yrs #1 RW". The expectation will be ridiculous.

Do you prioritize:

Goalie

Wing

?

 

So about the draft, people here are very hung up on making prediction as to who we'll pick, yes.   And then, based on that prediction, determining what moves we need to make prior to the draft.   As fans, it's fun to do that.   Irresistable, actually.   But the reality is that no moves are going to be made until at Least the lottery.  Zero chance.  After the lottery, if we get a Doug Hamilton type trade, I'll welcome it.  But the reallity is that we're more likely going to make our trades either On draft day, or After draft day.  Nobody's going to go out and get a top winger, or even a top D, until we know who we get with that top 10 pick (unless we actually use that pick in the trade).

 

There, a paragraph.  I'm trying, just for you    

 

 

Do you prioritize:

Goalie

Wing

?

 

My default prioritization for a rebuild  is:

Management committed to the rebuild and player development in juniors/college/europe/minors/NHL

Strong coaching and leadership with a defensively accountable system

1 top  Goalie    (that would be a starter on most contending teams)

4 top Defenceman (with a definitive top line that would be so on most contenders)

2 top Centers (with a definitive #1 that would be so on most contenders)

2 Right Wingers (with 1 definitive power forward that would be so on most contenders)

2 Left Wingers (with 1 definitive power forward that would be so on most contenders)

2 defensively strong bottom pairing D (preferably with size)

Supporting cast of forwards, strong 5on5 and/or PK.

 

For the Flames, I've crossed off what I think we've either accomplished or have coming up in our development system, and marked in red where I believe we still have work to do:

 

Management committed to the rebuild and player development in juniors/college/europe/minors/NHL

Strong coaching and leadership with a defensively accountable system

1 top  Goalie    (that would be a starter on most contending teams)

4 top Defenceman (with a definitive top line that would be so on most contenders)

2 top Centers (with a definitive #1 that would be so on most contenders)

2 Right Wingers (with 1 definitive power forward that would be so on most contenders)

2 Left Wingers (with 1 definitive power forward that would be so on most contenders)

2 defensively strong bottom pairing D (preferably with size)

Supporting cast of forwards, strong 5on5 and/or PK.

 

So as you can see, done the rebuild, I do not think we are imho.  But we have some Extremely nice pieces (particularly at center, and with Hamilton/Brodie), that I think we should be excited about.    

 

Without going too far off topic:  Yes, at the end of the day, I still rank goaltending as our top unfilled rebuild priority, same as everyone else on here.  In terms of bodies.   In terms of the rebuild itself, my top unfilled priority is better player development in the minors and the NHL.   And I am very much targetting our goaltending issue there.   A  true Stanley Cup #1 goaltender is just NOT going to fall into our lap.   90% chance the only way we get one affordably is by taking some chances and developing them here.   

 

Bandaids, half-measures, "bridges"....we've been trying All of that for years, since Kipper left.   We know it Doesn't work.  Has Never worked for us.   We know it's costly, expensive, and most importantly, Delays what we desperately need to do, which is develop that true #1.   The only way out of this is to develop Ortio, develop Gillies.   And if all that fails, yeah.  We make a trade and take a risk on someone in the AHL or Europe.  Like we did with Kipper.  But we're not that desperate yet.

 

We've nearly completed the first step:   Seeing what we have in Ortio.   What I see, and what the majority on here seem to see, is a 24-year old NHL backup entering his prime, and knocking on the door of a future starter goalie.   So, we develop that.  We make that happen.   And in the meantime, we develop Gillies.   He's closer than many think IMHO.   He may even be Better than ever after his recovery.   Yes, they Could both fail.  So I would like one more prospect of their caliber and age, personally.   It's not expensive.  Ortio's cleared waivers not that long ago, for instance.   (He definitely wouldn't now).

[MAC331]

Yes, and that's all I am saying and agree we NEED that goalie the most. But we have so much work in other areas that I can't see it vaulting us into the playoffs as much as, like I said earlier, probably get us around 5 points out.

I am fine with it. I want more, but I think it's just reality and cautioning against the idea, not getting us ahead of ourselves. I am a realist.

I think it's great the young guys are performing. I just see so many holes still and I think it's about an extra year away.

Last year all we added was Hamilton, Frolik, Nakladal. We are seeing what the last guy can do now at the end.

I also agree, when the team plays as five man units consistently, we are close. But we saw how hard that is to do in the NHL when other teams take us seriously. Which I don't think happened last year when we made the playoffs.

We could bounce back and forth on this "ready" question forever. One could say we got the goaltending last season and made it with a lesser team (granted some over performances). We didn't get good goaltending this year and we didn't get the over performances but may have found some late answers for next year. Experience is the key factor for getting better and the players we will come to rely on IMO did well this season. If BT can move some of the players that did not and that we no longer rely on with better players and good goaltenders we should be better off for 2016/17.

[jjgallow]

I have to say, I'm a little dissapointed after reading through the last day's posts, that Nobody has bothered to mention Ortio getting a Shutout, and Second star of the night last night.

 

Yes, it was Edmonton, but Ortio made some Very good saves and Edmonton Did create a lot of quality chances that Ortio stopped.

 

For all the knowledge and expertise and brilliant planning/forsight on here about the Flames, you'd think someone would have watched the game?

 

What's even better than the shutout, to me, is the consistent, improving, strong play.  Ortio is a .908 goalie now, with a decent number of games under his belt.   It wasn't that long ago people were complaining about why we'd take a risk on a "sub-900 AHLer".   Well, he's now neck and neck with Ramo (.909), but at the age of 24 and entering his prime.   At the rate he's going, he'll have the best save percentage of all our goalies by end of season.   With all his best years ahead of him.  That's no small deal.

[robrob1974]

We could bounce back and forth on this "ready" question forever. One could say we got the goaltending last season and made it with a lesser team (granted some over performances). We didn't get good goaltending this year and we didn't get the over performances but may have found some late answers for next year. Experience is the key factor for getting better and the players we will come to rely on IMO did well this season. If BT can move some of the players that did not and that we no longer rely on with better players and good goaltenders we should be better off for 2016/17.

Yes, and I think outside variables as well aided in us making it too... The LAK and SJS both having off years. In all likelihood it gets even harder if teams like Arizona, Edmonton, and possibly Vancouver improve.

Moving out the players that take up space is the hardest part in this whole thing. It's a shame really. We were in contract and cap hell, clearing space to only put ourselves back in it when the build wasn't even over....

This where we wish we could be GMs. I wouldn't have signed Stajan or Raymond. But anyway... We talked about them and all of the other signings. The good thing is BT signed them in his first year as GM.

I just can't see enough of those bad contracts out to make significant difference, outside of getting a really good goalie.

The goalie will allow us to compete so I agree there.

[jjgallow]

What are you basing that opinion on ? My other reason to target Kinkaid was to unload possibly some of our players they might find useful.

 

Please don't take this as a diss on Kinkaid, I think he's a good goalie but there's literally no comparison between him and Ortio, probably never and definitely not now.    Again, not to knock Kinkaid, my point is more that there's an under-appreciation of Ortio here.   I have seen a LOT of goalies mentioned on here, certainly not just Kinkaid, that are well below what Orito's already giving us.

 

Simply put, Ortio has a better save percentage and goals against than Kinkaid this year.  Both have played about 20 games.

 

Except, Kinkaid is 26.  IMHO, he's no longer a prospect.  He's in his prime.   Ortio's doing better than him, at 24, entering his prime.

 

It's not just this year, it's throughout their careers.  yes, Ortio's had some slips, and I think the Flames have to shoulder some of that.  But when Kinkaid was 24, for example, he was a .912 AHL goalie.  His single best full season in the AHL.   Ortio was a .926 AHL goalie by the age of 22.  Kinkaid's never achieved that.  Ever.

 

Pick any year that Ortio Wasn't bounced around or injured, and compare that to Kinkaid...it's not a comparison.  Even if you ignore the 2 years difference.

 

Most importantly, Ortio is showing that he's continuing to improve.  Kinkaid is showing regression, in his prime.

 

At the end of the day, I like Kinkaid.  But Ortio is a Very good prospect.  If we want to bring in someone Better and more promising than Ortio, they're going to have to be extremely special.

[DirtyDeeds]

I disagree, I think we are a goalie, a fix for RW and a dose of maturity/experience away from being a consistent threat. How fortunate are we to have our young core in being productive this early ? Gaudreau and Monahan need a RW talent that is his own threat creating more room for the whole line. Colborne, Backlund and Frolik have emerged as a very effective line. Now we need to get Bennett the proper linemates in order to have another serious scoring line the opposition needs to worry about. Our 4th line if they move Stajan could be Bouma, Grant and Hathaway, no arguments for having these 3 as an energy line.

Defense right now is well equipped to be very good. I know many want to see Wideman and / or Engelland moved and that may happen but even then we will have capable players to pair up.

Goalie is where we need to vastly improve and I have to say Ortio is impressing right now and if we could pair I'm up with someone like Elliott we may have an answer.

JH & Money don't need a RW talent. They do fine on their own.

Of course it would be nice but they don't need it. Look at their production this season.. 

137 points between the 2 of them and a little more to come.

 

I am not saying a RW is unnecessary, but it is not the huge deal some are making it out to be right now.

 

I think if need be, the RW can wait until next season when cap opens up, unless we get a lucky lotto pick in top 3.

[robrob1974]

JH & Money don't need a RW talent. They do fine on their own.

Of course it would be nice but they don't need it. Look at their production this season..

137 points between the 2 of them and a little more to come.

I am not saying a RW is unnecessary, but it is not the huge deal some are making it out to be right now.

I think if need be, the RW can wait until next season when cap opens up, unless we get a lucky lotto pick in top 3.

For me, if we want Bennett to be a C, we need that right wing to play with him, if it ended up a RW or LW, that remains to be seen...

But I think we need wingers to play with Bennett more than Monahan and Gaudreau needing someone.

[cross16]

I have to say, I'm a little dissapointed after reading through the last day's posts, that Nobody has bothered to mention Ortio getting a Shutout, and Second star of the night last night.

 

Yes, it was Edmonton, but Ortio made some Very good saves and Edmonton Did create a lot of quality chances that Ortio stopped.

 

For all the knowledge and expertise and brilliant planning/forsight on here about the Flames, you'd think someone would have watched the game?

 

What's even better than the shutout, to me, is the consistent, improving, strong play.  Ortio is a .908 goalie now, with a decent number of games under his belt.   It wasn't that long ago people were complaining about why we'd take a risk on a "sub-900 AHLer".   Well, he's now neck and neck with Ramo (.909), but at the age of 24 and entering his prime.   At the rate he's going, he'll have the best save percentage of all our goalies by end of season.   With all his best years ahead of him.  That's no small deal.

I watched it and thought he was solid. Impressive not really, after all you are facing one of the worst franchises in the NHL and on top of that one who failed to show up for half the night. I would expect any goalie who is an NHL caliber goalie, which Ortio is, to have a similar performance. He made the saves you have to make and that's a positive, but I dnt think last nights game should change people minds or wake them up to what Ortio is doin. If it did you probably were too down on orto to begin with.

As most of us would agree Ortio is an NHL caliber goalie so games last night should be the expectation, not a benchmark. He should be part of the mix for next year but IMO has not shown to me he's got the makings of a number one guy. Part of a tandem or a good backup but not starter stuff.

[MAC331]

Please don't take this as a diss on Kinkaid, I think he's a good goalie but there's literally no comparison between him and Ortio, probably never and definitely not now.    Again, not to knock Kinkaid, my point is more that there's an under-appreciation of Ortio here.   I have seen a LOT of goalies mentioned on here, certainly not just Kinkaid, that are well below what Orito's already giving us.

 

Simply put, Ortio has a better save percentage and goals against than Kinkaid this year.  Both have played about 20 games.

 

Except, Kinkaid is 26.  IMHO, he's no longer a prospect.  He's in his prime.   Ortio's doing better than him, at 24, entering his prime.

 

It's not just this year, it's throughout their careers.  yes, Ortio's had some slips, and I think the Flames have to shoulder some of that.  But when Kinkaid was 24, for example, he was a .912 AHL goalie.  His single best full season in the AHL.   Ortio was a .926 AHL goalie by the age of 22.  Kinkaid's never achieved that.  Ever.

 

Pick any year that Ortio Wasn't bounced around or injured, and compare that to Kinkaid...it's not a comparison.  Even if you ignore the 2 years difference.

 

Most importantly, Ortio is showing that he's continuing to improve.  Kinkaid is showing regression, in his prime.

 

At the end of the day, I like Kinkaid.  But Ortio is a Very good prospect.  If we want to bring in someone Better and more promising than Ortio, they're going to have to be extremely special.

What if Ortio decides to bolt back to Europe ? The reason I brought up Kinkaid was the possible need for two goalies and NJD's need for players next season. Even if we managed to trade away 2 players like Stajan, Raymond and cash to NJD for him. I wasn't thinking he was our saviour for goaltending.

 

I actually have been impressed with Ortio since his return.

[jjgallow]

As most of us would agree Ortio is an NHL caliber goalie so games last night should be the expectation, not a benchmark. He should be part of the mix for next year but IMO has not shown to me he's got the makings of a number one guy. Part of a tandem or a good backup but not starter stuff.

 

Ok, you can make it sound like you've always seen Ortio as an NHL calibre goalie if you want, but the reality as clearly documented on these threads is that opinion, or "expectation" of yours, and many on here (not singling you out)  is Unbelievably recent.

 

Most had given up on him and saw Europe as his best option.  Many would have prefered to see Poulin called up.

 

So there's not too much to argue about in terms of where he's at.  We're all very close on that.  It was Edmonton.  But, it was a shutout.  Yeah we all know.

 

But instead of pretending this was all foreseen years ago, because that's how smart we are...maybe we could be a little happy for what is turning into a cinderella year for a guy who was Literally as close as you can get to losing that NHL dream.

 

Because, quite honestly, there is a momentum and direction to this.  

 

Here is a Complete list of NHL goalies who are Under 25 years of age, and played 20 or more games this year.

 

Please note that it is an Incredibly short list.   Please note the calibre of player on it.   

 

Please note that Ortio ranks just fine on it.  And is arguably improving the fastest of anyone on it.

 

[travel_dude]

 

 

...

 

For the Flames, I've crossed off what I think we've either accomplished or have coming up in our development system, and marked in red where I believe we still have work to do:

 

Management committed to the rebuild and player development in juniors/college/europe/minors/NHL

Strong coaching and leadership with a defensively accountable system

1 top  Goalie    (that would be a starter on most contending teams)

4 top Defenceman (with a definitive top line that would be so on most contenders)

2 top Centers (with a definitive #1 that would be so on most contenders)

2 Right Wingers (with 1 definitive power forward that would be so on most contenders)

2 Left Wingers (with 1 definitive power forward that would be so on most contenders)

2 defensively strong bottom pairing D (preferably with size)

Supporting cast of forwards, strong 5on5 and/or PK.

 

So as you can see, done the rebuild, I do not think we are imho.  But we have some Extremely nice pieces (particularly at center, and with Hamilton/Brodie), that I think we should be excited about.    

 

...

 

I agree with needing a starter.

4 top D-men?  Are you suggesting adding one or needing 4?  I don't think we really even need one.  Could use?  Sure.  Engelland is not a top 4, so I would think that one of Nakladal or Jokipakka has shown enough to fill that need; both have improved of late and could have that ceiling.  

 

Next up - 2 RW?  What is Frolik?  I can see adding one to the top line, but we have at least one in development.  The 2nd could be added in trade or UFA.  We are not talking about a $6m player at this point, just a top 9 player.

 

After that - 2 LW?  I can see one more top 6 LW, but not a huge priority right now.  Scoring has not been an issue.  Can solve this after this next season when money is available.  Or by development of other farm kids.  

 

Backup goalie looks like we have a solution, assuming Ortio can start the season different than his last two years.  Being a backup means you have to come in cold and perform.  He hasn't done that consistently yet.  

[DirtyDeeds]

I have to say, I'm a little dissapointed after reading through the last day's posts, that Nobody has bothered to mention Ortio getting a Shutout, and Second star of the night last night.

 

Yes, it was Edmonton, but Ortio made some Very good saves and Edmonton Did create a lot of quality chances that Ortio stopped.

 

For all the knowledge and expertise and brilliant planning/forsight on here about the Flames, you'd think someone would have watched the game?

 

What's even better than the shutout, to me, is the consistent, improving, strong play.  Ortio is a .908 goalie now, with a decent number of games under his belt.   It wasn't that long ago people were complaining about why we'd take a risk on a "sub-900 AHLer".   Well, he's now neck and neck with Ramo (.909), but at the age of 24 and entering his prime.   At the rate he's going, he'll have the best save percentage of all our goalies by end of season.   With all his best years ahead of him.  That's no small deal.

Now JJ, I gave him my 1st star in the GDT. His performance did not go unnoticed.

[MAC331]

I watched it and thought he was solid. Impressive not really, after all you are facing one of the worst franchises in the NHL and on top of that one who failed to show up for half the night. I would expect any goalie who is an NHL caliber goalie, which Ortio is, to have a similar performance. He made the saves you have to make and that's a positive, but I dnt think last nights game should change people minds or wake them up to what Ortio is doin. If it did you probably were too down on orto to begin with.

As most of us would agree Ortio is an NHL caliber goalie so games last night should be the expectation, not a benchmark. He should be part of the mix for next year but IMO has not shown to me he's got the makings of a number one guy. Part of a tandem or a good backup but not starter stuff.

I'm beginning to wonder what the definition should be for an "elite" goaltender in this new NHL where they want more goal scoring not less. The advantage is with the offense and is going to stay there, shut outs are going to be hard to come by. Every goaltender I have watched has experienced the blow out nights and yanked after 3 or 4 goals so I'm wondering if not some of these expectations are now unrealistic. The situation is becoming can your goalie make the big save when it counts the most.

[robrob1974]

For me, Ortio has to have a big summer and come in ready. That seems to be what knocked him out of it last year. Could it have been the signing of Ramo, looking like they were going to go with Hiller and Ramo, maybe. But it's still up to Ortio to put in the work to improve and be ready in training camp. 

 

From what we've heard, he didn't really come in prepared and didn't have very good practice habits. The fact he refused a conditioning stint as well hurt his image, Hartely's perspective. 

 

I am surprised and wasn't an Ortio fan. If he can continue his play, I am willing to give him a chance. But he has to make sure he works for it this summer.

[jjgallow]

For me, Ortio has to have a big summer and come in ready. That seems to be what knocked him out of it last year. Could it have been the signing of Ramo, looking like they were going to go with Hiller and Ramo, maybe. But it's still up to Ortio to put in the work to improve and be ready in training camp. 

 

From what we've heard, he didn't really come in prepared and didn't have very good practice habits. The fact he refused a conditioning stint as well hurt his image, Hartely's perspective. 

 

I am surprised and wasn't an Ortio fan. If he can continue his play, I am willing to give him a chance. But he has to make sure he works for it this summer.

 

IMHO, Ortio came in ready from summer.  I could be wrong.

 

But he was only given an opportunity to  play one pre-season game, and got a shutout.

http://flamesnation.ca/2015/9/24/pre-season-post-game-grand-theft-ortio

 

Not sure how you can complain about a shutout (maybe cross can help with that lol), especially considering dismal, now ominous pre-season performances by the other goalies.  But Obviously Hartley found a way to not like it.  And literally never gave him another opportunity for over a month (Oct 26).

 

I've heard a lot about practice habits, but I don't know if it's because it's true, or if it's because it's the only remaining theory that makes sense.  Either way, I highly doubt Ortio was confrontational in practice or he wouldn't be in a Flames uniform at all.   If there was an issue with his practice methods, one would think that's something the goaltender coaching staff would address as part of their profession, rather than letting a young prospect coming off of a shutout, go cold for a month straight in a crucial developmental season for them.

 

Refusing a conditioning stint, that I have not heard.   Is this true?   I highly doubt this would ever be up to Ortio.   I can see how he would want to stay up, especially after a pre-season shutout and strong finish the previous year, combined with his new contract.  But ultimately wouldn't this be a Flames decision?   Would seem more intuitive to me that the Flames kept him up because they didn't want to lose him to waivers, but Hartley didn't want to play him.   After leaving him cold for a month and getting a bad performance, that waiver situation was resolved...but not...in my opinion, professionally.  And I think it's pretty clear now, that they had more than what Hartley thought they did.

[DirtyDeeds]

I'm beginning to wonder what the definition should be for an "elite" goaltender in this new NHL where they want more goal scoring not less. The advantage is with the offense and is going to stay there, shut outs are going to be hard to come by. Every goaltender I have watched has experienced the blow out nights and yanked after 3 or 4 goals so I'm wondering if not some of these expectations are now unrealistic. The situation is becoming can your goalie make the big save when it counts the most.

Add to your thoughts, the new goaltender smaller pad sizes, which will make it that much harder to figure out which goaltenders will be able to adjust and who won't be able to adjust.

[Flyerfan52]

I have to say, I'm a little dissapointed after reading through the last day's posts, that Nobody has bothered to mention Ortio getting a Shutout, and Second star of the night last night.

 

Yes, it was Edmonton, but Ortio made some Very good saves and Edmonton Did create a lot of quality chances that Ortio stopped.

 

For all the knowledge and expertise and brilliant planning/forsight on here about the Flames, you'd think someone would have watched the game?

 

What's even better than the shutout, to me, is the consistent, improving, strong play.  Ortio is a .908 goalie now, with a decent number of games under his belt.   It wasn't that long ago people were complaining about why we'd take a risk on a "sub-900 AHLer".   Well, he's now neck and neck with Ramo (.909), but at the age of 24 and entering his prime.   At the rate he's going, he'll have the best save percentage of all our goalies by end of season.   With all his best years ahead of him.  That's no small deal.

League average is 0.915.

 

Wow! Ortio @ .908 sounds great (if you want to pick early).

 

jj, we need a real goalie if we intend to go anywhere. Ortio might become a decent backup but as of now he's barely a good AHLer.

[travel_dude]

IMHO, Ortio came in ready from summer.  I could be wrong.

 

But he was only given an opportunity to  play one pre-season game, and got a shutout.

http://flamesnation.ca/2015/9/24/pre-season-post-game-grand-theft-ortio

 

Not sure how you can complain about a shutout (maybe cross can help with that lol), especially considering dismal, now ominous pre-season performances by the other goalies.  But Obviously Hartley found a way to not like it.  And literally never gave him another opportunity for over a month (Oct 26).

 

I've heard a lot about practice habits, but I don't know if it's because it's true, or if it's because it's the only remaining theory that makes sense.  Either way, I highly doubt Ortio was confrontational in practice or he wouldn't be in a Flames uniform at all.   If there was an issue with his practice methods, one would think that's something the goaltender coaching staff would address as part of their profession, rather than letting a young prospect coming off of a shutout, go cold for a month straight in a crucial developmental season for them.

 

Refusing a conditioning stint, that I have not heard.   Is this true?   I highly doubt this would ever be up to Ortio.   I can see how he would want to stay up, especially after a pre-season shutout and strong finish the previous year, combined with his new contract.  But ultimately wouldn't this be a Flames decision?   Would seem more intuitive to me that the Flames kept him up because they didn't want to lose him to waivers, but Hartley didn't want to play him.   After leaving him cold for a month and getting a bad performance, that waiver situation was resolved...but not...in my opinion, professionally.  And I think it's pretty clear now, that they had more than what Hartley thought they did.

 

You must be forgetting a few pre-season games.  He played part of the game against EDM (12 saves, 1 GA), all of the shutout game against the AVS, and the loss to Winnipeg (23 saves, 3 GA).

 

The knock has always been a slow start.  This year after going in cold ten games into the season for his first actual start.  His start in Stockton this season.  Last season in Addy.  He's kind of like Kipper, in that he starts off bad and gets better later.

 

That is the concern.  

[jjgallow]

League average is 0.915.

 

Wow! Ortio @ .908 sounds great (if you want to pick early).

 

jj, we need a real goalie if we intend to go anywhere. Ortio might become a decent backup but as of now he's barely a good AHLer.

 

You're classy enough to know what to do when a goalie gets a shutout, and making an extremely weak arguement like the one above, wasn't it.