I Don't Understand This

[The_People1]

So what do you want? Cull everyone age 27 or older? Bring up everyone from the farm? Drop anyone making 3 mill a year or more? Get picks for the lot of them? Then take your chances in the draft? Who knows, 6 or 7 years later we may have a playoff team again?

Sometimes you have to take a step back in order to take two steps forward.

Rebuilding is short term sacrifice for long term success. Rebuilding is not evil.

[Ameter]

Sometimes you have to take a step back in order to take two steps forward.

Rebuilding is short term sacrifice for long term success. Rebuilding is not evil.

The time for rebuilding is not now. The time for rebuilding is in the off-season when teams are able to make the kind of room they need to take our high value players.

Remember how everyone says we should have traded Phaneuf in the off season, when we could have got more for him.

[DirtyDeeds]

Sometimes you have to take a step back in order to take two steps forward.

Rebuilding is short term sacrifice for long term success. Rebuilding is not evil.

The Flaw in your statement is there is no guarantee in rebuilding. No guarantee it will will be short term rebuilding, and no guarantee it will be successful, let alone as successful as we presently are/have been.

Rebuilding is not evil if you have the right scouting in place and the right development in place. You can't show we have either at the moment. That alone only decreases the chance or lengthens the time we could be successful.

The only positive I can see in our development areas is we now have our own farm team and close to us.

Half the forums don't like our prospects and another huge group don't like the defensive 2 way system being preached down there. Truth is the outlook is probably slightly better, but look at any ranking prospect websites and the Flames don't show up until near the bottom.

Ask Flames111 about our recent history in drafting. Do your own study, our record is pretty dismal. That didn't even address our lack of draft picks "Again". Exactly how fast is that rebuild going to progress when your drafting is inept?

[Leviathan]

Understand this...I'v been a season ticket holder for over 10 years and will remain one whatever happens(WHATEVER HAPPENS) but i'v seen this dog and pony show with the Flames for too many years now to believe that this core and supporting cast will ever win anything.

Understand this.....if it were up to me, I'd blow up the core fans/season ticket holders.

It is you people who have set a overall "this team is going no where/meh/they can't do it" vibe.....and that attitude has resonated all the way from the stands onto the ice. The people in the seats at the Saddledome seem "defeated".

I'll give ya the benefit of the doubt in the lean years (pre-2004), but.......

2006 - Game 7 vs Anaheim. The team was only down 2 goals and the fans literally gave up. I remember SCREAMING at my TV in frustration that these fans were so pissy cause the Flames finished with 103 points/won the Northwest and were taking it out on the team by giving up on them. The entire third period, I could actually FEEL the negative attitude oozing all the way to my TV. Hell, it even made ME feel like there was no sense in even cheering anymore. That attitude quickly disappeared when I shut off the TV and could no longer see the mopey/depressed fans. Sadly, the players can't do this and it seeps in....

2007 - We face the Presidents Cup-winning Detroit. We lose the first two in Det - then win two close 3-2 games at the Dome. Detroit then blows us out 5-1 back in Detroit. Back to the Saddledome; you could, again, FEEL the negative attitude at the Dome. So what - we lost the last game 5-1; but the fans seemed to think we were still playing that same game in game 6 and gave up on the team before the game even started. How we even managed to lose in a close OT game was beyond me. If I were a Flames player, I would have packed it in and moved on to the next season....cause that's what the fans did.

2008 - Game 7 vs San Jose. It was 4-3 in the third...and guess what? The fans were sound asleep, waiting for the 2009 season again. We were down ONE GOAL in game 7!!! The only life the fans showed was after Sarich dealt that big hit on Marleau in game #3; and low-and-behold, the Flames came back from down 3-0 to win that game. It's amazing what fan support does, eh?

2009 - After 3 straight seasons of the fans sucking the big one.....opp's, I mean, the Flames not making it past the first round, we faced Chicago. The folks at the Saddledome wrote this team off before the series even started....WTF?? Same as in 2007 - the Flames battled back from a 2-0 deficit, only to lose game #5 by the same 5-1 score as back in 2007. It would shock nobody to find out the Saddledome, again, had a negative attitude going into game 6. After Kane scored the first goal, the fans packed it in. We fired 44 shots on Khabibulin that night, but what did it matter....he was probably feeding off the "it's over already" attitude from the Flames fans; meanwhile our teams was probably wondering if moving back to Atlanta might be a better option right about then.

2010 - No playoffs. Personally, I think this was a good thing. At least the Flames got a one-year break from being belittled and chastised for not living up to expectations by the Saddledome residents. Maybe that break from the negativity will translate into a "we'll show you" attitude from the Flames if they make the playoffs this year.

...and don't even get me started on the "We Want The Cup" chant in game 6 in 2004. WHAT THE HELL WAS THAT? It was this exact moment the Saddledome showed its true colors.

So, ya....maybe the core group and supporting cast haven't made it past the first round since 2004 - but at least they showed up for every game.

Now, if the fans could just do the same thing, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion.

Being a season ticket holder for 10 years doesn't give you anymore insight into the team than say, a guy who lives in Nova Scotia and who has never been to a Flames game (me!! ). If anything, you have been immersed (or maybe even part of) the massive prevailing complacency that has become the theme at the Saddledome.

Get the hell out of your seats!! Stand up and cheer this team. Stop with the "what have you done for me lately" attitude, and guess what? .....the Flames might just give you want you want. But without support and being surrounded by such a negative vibe, this franchise stands little chance at living up to expectations, new philosophy or not.

[kehatch]

The Flaw in your statement is there is no guarantee in rebuilding. No guarantee it will will be short term rebuilding, and no guarantee it will be successful, let alone as successful as we presently are/have been.

Rebuilding is not evil if you have the right scouting in place and the right development in place. You can't show we have either at the moment. That alone only decreases the chance or lengthens the time we could be successful.

The only positive I can see in our development areas is we now have our own farm team and close to us.

Half the forums don't like our prospects and another huge group don't like the defensive 2 way system being preached down there. Truth is the outlook is probably slightly better, but look at any ranking prospect websites and the Flames don't show up until near the bottom.

Ask Flames111 about our recent history in drafting. Do your own study, our record is pretty dismal. That didn't even address our lack of draft picks "Again". Exactly how fast is that rebuild going to progress when your drafting is inept?

People are using different definitions of the term rebuilding. I can't speak for anyone but myself. However, all I want is for changes to be made to improve this team. I am not looking for them to tank so we get a top 10 pick.

However, an argument can be made that winning isn't the best thing for the future development of this club. Winning right now means they probably are not going to trade valuable UFA's like Tanguay, Babchuk, and Glencross. Winning right now means they won't trade core players like Regehr for young prospects while he has value. Winning right now means the GM may end up putting prospects or picks on the line in an attempt to make the playoffs. or he may pick up contracts we won't want come October.

That said, I prefer winning to losing. Since Sutter has been gone the team has been winning at an elite level. IF they can sustain that then we may not need to make the level of changes that it looked like they needed to make. They clearly need to add youth and speed. However, they may not need to start removing core peices to fix this team.

But the fact remains. The window to make some moves that will benefit the future are between now and the end of February. If we fail to make those moves and end up not making the playoffs, or not competing in them when we get there, then winning now is going to hamper the future development of this team.

[kehatch]

@Leviathan

Give me a break. You are officially full of crap.

Prior to last season the Flames have had a steller home record. The energy in the saddledome is top notch. The fan's rarely booed the team. Go take a stroll on the the Canucks, Ottawa, Montreal, Toronto, or Edmonton forums if you want to see negative.

And I was at game you are referring to in the 07 Detroit series. The energy was amazing.

This season the Flames are one of the most frustrating teams to watch in the NHL. Your going to see some frustration from any fan base.

I am no shrink, but I think that negative feelign you are getting in the pit of our stomache is comming from somewhere other then the fans.

[DirtyDeeds]

People are using different definitions of the term rebuilding. I can't speak for anyone but myself. However, all I want is for changes to be made to improve this team. I am not looking for them to tank so we get a top 10 pick.

All teams could be improved. All Fans want to better the team or they aren't fans.

However, an argument can be made that winning isn't the best thing for the future development of this club. Winning right now means they probably are not going to trade valuable UFA's like Tanguay, Babchuk, and Glencross. Winning right now means they won't trade core players like Regehr for young prospects while he has value. Winning right now means the GM may end up putting prospects or picks on the line in an attempt to make the playoffs. or he may pick up contracts we won't want come October.

Yes and arguments can also be made that losing teams have more trouble attracting or keeping valuable players. (Edmonton / Heatly for example)(Are the rumors John Tavares wants out of NYI true?) If we trade away Iggy(just for example), who is going to phone up players like JBO and have enough clout with them, to convince them to even come here? That list is really short.

That said, I prefer winning to losing. Since Sutter has been gone the team has been winning at an elite level. IF they can sustain that then we may not need to make the level of changes that it looked like they needed to make. They clearly need to add youth and speed. However, they may not need to start removing core peices to fix this team.

This I pretty much agree with. Now that Connie has retired we have 7 UFA's this year and 8 more next year to deal with. That alone shows built in flexibility for change. The salary cap at end of this season still doesn't give us much room to wiggle with. With only 7 players signed past next season, there is lots of room to change, and lots of money opening up. That indicates to me we should be focusing on drafting or prospects. There is no need to trade unless we are offered a deal we shouldn't/can't refuse.

But the fact remains. The window to make some moves that will benefit the future are between now and the end of February. If we fail to make those moves and end up not making the playoffs, or not competing in them when we get there, then winning now is going to hamper the future development of this team.

That is a lot of "Ifs", "fails" and "ors", with no indication or guarantee any of those "Ifs, fails and ors" are going to happen, let alone all of them.

The window for moves that will benefit the future is really between seasons, not between now and the end of Feb. Too many teams now don't have the cap room to bring in any long term solutions now, between seasons they can make room for any shuffles they need to make. Trade Deadline trades in todays NHL tend to be short term impact trades unless they are out of the playoff picture. We are not out of any playoff picture yet.

[senor_incendiarse]

@Leviathan

Give me a break. You are officially full of crap.

Prior to last season the Flames have had a steller home record. The energy in the saddledome is top notch. The fan's rarely booed the team. Go take a stroll on the the Canucks, Ottawa, Montreal, Toronto, or Edmonton forums if you want to see negative.

And I was at game you are referring to in the 07 Detroit series. The energy was amazing.

This season the Flames are one of the most frustrating teams to watch in the NHL. Your going to see some frustration from any fan base.

I am no shrink, but I think that negative feelign you are getting in the pit of our stomache is comming from somewhere other then the fans.

I've seen occasions where the team was booed undeservedly, but to be honest I haven't been to a Flames loss yet this season, but outside of the Edmonton games earlier and the home opener the dome has returned to library status. The Tampa game was the most depressing win I've ever been to in my life they played a solid game and made Stamkos practically invisible, yet the atmosphere was as bad as a funeral. If your gonna take your frustrations out the team by booing, at least appreciate the wins, which there have been more of those on home than losses.

[kehatch]

People are using different definitions of the term rebuilding. I can't speak for anyone but myself. However, all I want is for changes to be made to improve this team. I am not looking for them to tank so we get a top 10 pick.

All teams could be improved. All Fans want to better the team or they aren't fans.

However, an argument can be made that winning isn't the best thing for the future development of this club. Winning right now means they probably are not going to trade valuable UFA's like Tanguay, Babchuk, and Glencross. Winning right now means they won't trade core players like Regehr for young prospects while he has value. Winning right now means the GM may end up putting prospects or picks on the line in an attempt to make the playoffs. or he may pick up contracts we won't want come October.

Yes and arguments can also be made that losing teams have more trouble attracting or keeping valuable players. (Edmonton / Heatly for example)(Are the rumors John Tavares wants out of NYI true?) If we trade away Iggy(just for example), who is going to phone up players like JBO and have enough clout with them, to convince them to even come here? That list is really short.

The statement is a bit dramatic. Trading a few UFA's and an aging defense men doesn't turn you into the Islanders. Regardless, you don't build through free-agency. You supplement the team. And you are fooling yourself if you think Calgary is at the top of any high profile UFA's list with the team we have today.

That said, I prefer winning to losing. Since Sutter has been gone the team has been winning at an elite level. IF they can sustain that then we may not need to make the level of changes that it looked like they needed to make. They clearly need to add youth and speed. However, they may not need to start removing core peices to fix this team.

This I pretty much agree with. Now that Connie has retired we have 7 UFA's this year and 8 more next year to deal with. That alone shows built in flexibility for change. The salary cap at end of this season still doesn't give us much room to wiggle with. With only 7 players signed past next season, there is lots of room to change, and lots of money opening up. That indicates to me we should be focusing on drafting or prospects. There is no need to trade unless we are offered a deal we shouldn't/can't refuse.

We don't have high profile prospects. We probably aren't going to draft anyone that can help us in the immediate future. I agree we can't rely on UFA. That means you either win with what you have, or if you can't then you trade some peices. In reality its a combination though long term. You don't just build through the draft, or trade, or UFA. You have to be good in all areas to be successful. I don't think people are off their rockers when they suggest we trade a d-man for a forward. We have good d-prospects. 3 of our 5 core members are d-men (one is a goalie). Iggy can't carry the top 6 on his own.

But the fact remains. The window to make some moves that will benefit the future are between now and the end of February. If we fail to make those moves and end up not making the playoffs, or not competing in them when we get there, then winning now is going to hamper the future development of this team.

That is a lot of "Ifs", "fails" and "ors", with no indication or guarantee any of those "Ifs, fails and ors" are going to happen, let alone all of them.

The window for moves that will benefit the future is really between seasons, not between now and the end of Feb. Too many teams now don't have the cap room to bring in any long term solutions now, between seasons they can make room for any shuffles they need to make. Trade Deadline trades in todays NHL tend to be short term impact trades unless they are out of the playoff picture. We are not out of any playoff picture yet.

The off season is just another opportunity, but it is very different. You no longer have UFAs to deal. The other teams aren't in desperate mode to add to their team. And you are competing against a lot of other teams and UFAs. Given the number of buyers versus sellers at this trade deadline along with a general shortage of D-man you probably aren't going to find a better time to deal a player like Reggie.

That all said, I still want to win. If the team can pull off 30 more games like the last 16 then the picture of what Feaster (or other) needs to do in the off season is much clearer. I am just hoping they don't wait until after the trade deadline to start losing again.

I've seen occasions where the team was booed undeservedly, but to be honest I haven't been to a Flames loss yet this season, but outside of the Edmonton games earlier and the home opener the dome has returned to library status. The Tampa game was the most depressing win I've ever been to in my life they played a solid game and made Stamkos practically invisible, yet the atmosphere was as bad as a funeral. If your gonna take your frustrations out the team by booing, at least appreciate the wins, which there have been more of those on home than losses.

There is no question the energy level in the dome has dropped over the last two seasons, in large part due to an inconsistent and underachieving team combined with some controversial trades. However, saying it was bad in 2006 (as Leviathan was) is ignorant. Blaming the lack of the Flames success on the fans is crazy.

[The_People1]

All Fans want to better the team or they aren't fans.

Absolutely man.

It's always a debate on "how" it's best to improve the team. Some believe it's through high draft picks. Others believe it's through UFA. The rest believe it's some combination of the two. Regardless of what category of belief a fan falls into, it doesn't make them more or less of a fan than anyone else.

[The_People1]

The Flaw in your statement is there is no guarantee in rebuilding. No guarantee it will will be short term rebuilding, and no guarantee it will be successful, let alone as successful as we presently are/have been.

Rebuilding is not evil if you have the right scouting in place and the right development in place. You can't show we have either at the moment. That alone only decreases the chance or lengthens the time we could be successful.

On the other side of the argument, we are a team capped out to the max with bad contracts locked up long term that prevents us from bringing in key players via UFA. If we can't bring in key players via UFA, then where are we going to bring in new key players from? The answer is via the draft. We need to press the reset button and start over and do this right. The higher we draft, the easier it is on our inept drafting department to pick a good player.

The cap world has given off a false perception that it's easy to rebuild through UFA but this is not the case. Impact players via UFA cost a premium. More and more teams are locking up their best young players long term and this has caused a rarity of good young players coming onto the UFA market. This rarity has then caused mid-tier players to come at inflated prices. Mid-tier players are equally important to any team but not when they cost so much. The best solution to cap/cost control is to develop players yourself whether it's a star player or a mid-tier player.

[Flyerfan52]

That isn't fair.

"As a moderator" should not mean his opinion must be 'rah rah go team'.

Just like everyone else, he should be allowed to express his opinion.

He's not running around banning everyone for his own agenda, so what's your problem?

Mod or Admin I respond to them the same way I would to any other poster. They state their opinions like we do & the title doesn't give their views any more or less credence then the rest of us. I weigh their points & respond but I also trust they wouldn't have been given the responsibility if too immature to handle it & ban someone merely for holding an opposing view.

They're part of our fan base & deserve to be heard (even when they're wrong since I am always right ).

Look, I try to keep things light as much as possible but I read the different viewpoints & modify my views because a lot of opposing views make sense. If someone isn't rah-rah or seems down on a certain player I try to see where they are coming from. I tend to be an optimist but don't see the world through the rose glasses as life has taught me a few lessons. I also prefer to live my life by what I see rather then what the stats say. If there's a player people are down on I look for the flaws they're seeing but also don't go ga-ga when everyone is singing the praises of a different 1.

I don't really go with the flow as I'd keep Tanguay & Glencross (he'd look good in O& but I'd trade JBo & our 1st for help now. I don't want to base my hopes on a chance of a Cup in 5-10 years. I'd rather shoot the works & get 1 within the next 2.

[Ameter]

How long do warnings take to fall off? I got warned because of this thread

[japanjenius]

I am in such disbelife that you can be a fan of any team and hope they lose. There is only 3 teams I hope lose, the Canucks, the Oilers, and the Leafs. If you want the Flames to lose, then you aren't a fan.

I hear what you are saying and agree that I always want the leafs to lose. However, now I accept that the casucks are one team the Flames won't catch and the coilers are too far behind to concern us. As a result I find myself pulling for these two teams agaist all western opponents.

As a final note, I will always hope the Flames win and also believe if this year's flames do make the playoffs they will have one of the best second half records. With that in mind, why the heck can't they make some noise in this year's playoffs?!

Go Flames Go!!

[stubblejumper1]

I have been jaded about this team for quite a while but even I don't understand why anyone would be upset about the team playing better and getting some wins.

I think it is mostly people who only watch the games on tv who want the team to tank. Anyone who actually pays for tickets to see a game at the Saddledome feels cheated when the team doesn't put in an honest effort.

[conundrumed]

Mod or Admin I respond to them the same way I would to any other poster. They state their opinions like we do & the title doesn't give their views any more or less credence then the rest of us. I weigh their points & respond but I also trust they wouldn't have been given the responsibility if too immature to handle it & ban someone merely for holding an opposing view.

They're part of our fan base & deserve to be heard (even when they're wrong since I am always right ).

Look, I try to keep things light as much as possible but I read the different viewpoints & modify my views because a lot of opposing views make sense. If someone isn't rah-rah or seems down on a certain player I try to see where they are coming from. I tend to be an optimist but don't see the world through the rose glasses as life has taught me a few lessons. I also prefer to live my life by what I see rather then what the stats say. If there's a player people are down on I look for the flaws they're seeing but also don't go ga-ga when everyone is singing the praises of a different 1.

I don't really go with the flow as I'd keep Tanguay & Glencross (he'd look good in O& but I'd trade JBo & our 1st for help now. I don't want to base my hopes on a chance of a Cup in 5-10 years. I'd rather shoot the works & get 1 within the next 2.

It was Carty's post I was responding to, but as for you my "always right" friend....yeah, I've got nothing...I generally agree with you as per usual. Glencross may be weighted by inconsistency, but it's elevating expectations on him and ignoring his limitations I think as the reason why so many want him gone. I'm not one of those people.

And as for peeps, he's the central reason why this board exists. He's been at it forever, and he even brought it back from the dead a few years back.

Does that grant him a free pass with his opinion? God no, by all means rip his opinion to shreds and leave a withering carcass!!

It's up to the Flames to do that, to spare us an "I told you so" moment.

But if posters are getting it in their head that The People is a "bad" fan, they'd do well to take a step back. If he had a life, he wouldn't have the time to have this board for us to rant on!!

[Flyerfan52]

conundrumed, I only quoted you as the point you made was what I was trying to stress in my reply. Peeps & the Mods have their views & don't have to be be "rah rah" as they are as free to post opinions pro or con as the rest of us. But the fact they carry a title doesn't give their opinion more weight then those posted by anyone else. I have no problem responding whether I agree or disagree. They seem open to views & I've seen some of their viewpoints changed by points others make.

Some posters take the title or a person's # of posts as a factor in assessing the validity of what they're saying. Sometimes what seems like a newbie (many are people that had to create a new account due to board turnovers) makes points an old poop like me wouldn't think of.

We have people of different ages, backgrounds, etc. & our lives form our opinions in everything including our slant on sports. Some are Flames fans because they grew up in the proximity while others like their style or even just a certain player. It doesn't make their take wrong as we all want what we see as best for our team. The major difference is some hope for a Cup down the road while others think we have most of the pieces & should make the push now. Same destination, just a different route.

[DirtyDeeds]

Ameter still has a very valid point. The Flames are and have been the hottest team or very close since Christmas. Instead of enjoying the fine hockey they are "obviously" trying to give us, some are still complaining.

Dutter screwed us, Butter can't coach, King should be tarred and feathered, Backlund is being ruined, Kipper is over the hill and deserves to be booed, and all the while they keep on winning, and keep on playing as a team, and keep on moving up the standings.

More power to you Ameter for trying but some here can't ever be happy, unless they are complaining. Some won't ever be able to give credit where due.

To the rest of us I say, "Hey what a great run the Flames are having right now eh???" What a friggin pleasure to watch that effort and determination to win, they have been bringing to the table just about every single night for a long time now.

Damn good hockey for a bunch of players a whole lot of people said were too old, too slow, and too disorganized to be anywhere but 14th in the west.

[The_People1]

How long do warnings take to fall off? I got warned because of this thread

At least a month of good standing.

For the record, you did not get warned "because of this thread." Posting opinions do not get anyone warned. You got warned because you name called half the membership with offensive language and that will get you pretty much warned all over the internet, not just on this message board.

[The_People1]

Damn good hockey for a bunch of players a whole lot of people said were too old, too slow, and too disorganized to be anywhere but 14th in the west.

From day one of the season, i said this team would make the playoffs. I never doubted that.

I just don't think they should.

The more they win, the more they are putting themselves into the position where we fans might as well all cheer for them to make the playoffs because there's really no draft advantage in picking 13th vs 16th. At least with the 16th pick, it means we made the playoffs.

I would just really really hate to miss the playoffs by 1 point because in that case, we may as well finished with the 6th overall pick.

[Bane]

I would just really really hate to miss the playoffs by 1 point because in that case, we may as well finished with the 6th overall pick.

Or worse...because we lost a tiebreaker.