kehatch

Which is why this debate is moot. Burke isn't going to let us go into next season with the same tandem. Personally I doubt Berra gets an NHL contract after this season. I may be wrong. Maybe they aren't sold on Ramo or Ortio. But I really doubt we see two of Ortio, Ramo, and Berra in the NHL to start next season.

Those aren't solid anything numbers. Those are dreadful. What do you mean that isn't much better? Those are MUCH better numbers. GAA is more of a team stat. In terms of SV% .898 vs .908 is around a half a goal per game difference. There are only 30 teams in the NHL, each with two goalies that see any time. Berra is at the very bottom of that list ... You are pointing out exactly why he isn't an NHL caliber goalie.

Success bias. For every Kipper there are dozens of Karlssons that never panned out. You can't hold on to a crappy goalie crossing your fingers they turn into stars. And as Cross says, Berra isn't Kipper. Berra is getting the starts he just isn't doing anything with them. You can say it is because of the team, but other goalies like Ramo and MacDonald have been better on the same team. I thought he look overwhelmed. He never seemed to settle in. He was fine overall, and it is understandable given it was his first start, but based on one viewing he doesn't look ready for the NHL in my opinion.

Berra lacks fundamentals. Part of the reason he has a reputation for making spectacular saves is because he is forced to. The goalies that make it look easy are usually the guys that are in the right position. I don't see a future for Berra in the NHL. Ramo on the other hand looks good. I don't know if he is a legitimate NHL starter or not. But I would like to see how he does next season. I am neutral on Ortio. He looked uncomfortable for the first half of the game. But that is expected in an NHL debut. I need to see him for a few more games before I have an opinion on him one way or the other. Personally I would put Ortio back to the AHL for one more season, not sign Berra at the end of the year, and trade for a youngish budget goalie this season that you know can play in the NHL and run a tandem of Ramo and the new guy.

I would be surprised if Burke and the new GM don't bring on an upgrade before next season.

I think Brossoit was the better prospect at the time of the trade. He still is. In fact I think there is a reasonable chance Roy isn't given a qualifying offer. His technical skills aren't very good and despite some great starts he has had some real stinkers as well. That said, goalies are unpredictable so who knows who ends up with the best goalie in the end. There is a real chance neither is am NHL goalie.

Agreed. Bringing up Ortio for a couple of games has nothing but positives. Good for Ortio and it is good for Roy. Besides they don't have any great alternative with MacDonald hurt. If they signed another goalie to fill in for three games it would have been a slap in the face to Ortio and a waste of a contract. I would like to see him play a game though. But that might depend on how Berra plays.

He hasn't really been vocal at all. He hasn't said he needs a top line C, big top 4 D, or addressed any specific position. Nor should he.

Burke will absolutely look for a goalie. He isn't going to bank on Ortio, Berra, or Ramo to support a young team in a rebuild. He might not be able to find one, especially until the off season. But I can almost guarantee he will be looking for security in net.

Right or wrong Hartley isn't ready to give up on Berra. The Flames aren't winning hockey games so making sure they know what they have in their younger goalies isn't a bad thing. I hated the rotation when Berra was getting 9 out of 10 starts. But that isn't happening now. I am neutral on Berra staying up or being demoted. Personally I don't think Berra is an NHL caliber goalie. But I also think that Ramo is getting enough starts and Ortio is fine in the AHL.

I doubt Berra has any value. But I also doubted Karlsson did so who knows. I think Ortio will get a call up. It may only be for a couple of games. But I think the Flames will want to see what they have. They have a big decision this summer on whether they should pursue a goalie. Seeing Ortio at the NHL level will help with that decision.

Berra has been terrible in January. He was bad in November. Ramo has been MUCH better since getting an opportunity to play.

I think he was just okay. Which is a bit of a let down. But a good or bad performance wasn't going to stay my opinion on him. It is just one tournament. Perhaps this will show some people (not aimed at anyone specifically) that Gilles is still a prospect and he is still one that is a ways away from the NHL. He also isn't a sure thing (which is true for any goalie prospect at his stage of development.)

He might get a contract. But he has a chance to earn the starter role in Calgary. There aren't many teams that will give him that chance.

I remember a 1-month period where fans were ready to anoint the Calgary tower as our next goalie. Patience is required. As Cross says, there isn't going to be a bidding war for Berra in free agency. Nor is he going to get the type of opportunity he has in Calgary on any other team. There is no rush to sign him to an extension. Lets see how he does for the remainder of the season. Lets also see how Ortio continues to play because he might be ready next season.

I disagree. You can't limit your evaluation to the good times and ignore the bad. Yes both goalies have been good over the past month. But goaltending was really bad prior to that. When you look at the body of work (the entire season) Calgary still has league worst goaltending. I agree that it is a positive sign. If the goalies sustain this and don't cool off significantly than I will agree that we can stop worrying about our tenders. But right now I still think it is a weak area for Calgary with two unproven goalies in net.

I am not going to get excited about a prospect because you say I should I wasn't high on Ortio before the season starts. So 14 games under a system known for great goalie stats doesn't change my mind. I also wasn't high on Ortio after he was drafted. I wasn't low on him either. But his +1 draft year didn't do anything to establish him as a great prospect. Neither did his +2 or +3 seasons. I am not saying you shouldn't be excited for him. He has definitely moved his way up my prospect charts. He just needs to do what he is doing for longer before I am going to start thinking about him as a legitimate starting goalie prospect. I still don't think the Flames have a sure fire goalie in the system though. It is possible both Ortio and GIlles become starters. It is also very possible neither do. So I am okay with taking chances on guys like Ramo/Berra. I would also be okay if the Flames were in on a guy like Bernier. The only thing I don't want to see is us go after an established older veteran. I could see Burke doing that. But I really hope he doesn't.

Unless Ramo or Berra really establish themselves I think Ortio will see some starts after the trade deadline this season. I have trouble getting excited about this guy though. There is no denying his performance in Abby. That said Brust and Taylor found a lot of success under Ward as well. If he keeps this up for the rest of the season or he shows me something at the NHL level than I will start to get excited. He has definitely worked his way up my list of prospects. But he has a ways to go before he cracks my A list of prospects. I am hoping he can continue to improve and show he has NHL starter potential. Gilles on the other hand I am really excited about. He still has a long ways to go to prove he is an NHL goalie. But he keeps getting better and his ceiling is really high.

I think it is more than just the stats. I have seen goalies look much better then their stats showed. In Ramo's and (especially) Berra's case they both raise flags with the eyeball test. I don't think either is the starter on any other NHL team. I don't think either end up as the back-up on most NHL teams. It is tough to look five years down the road and see either of these guys in net for the Flames (or any NHL team). That said Ramo has been playing very well lately and I am hoping he overcomes the odds and shows he has what it takes to be a full time NHL goalie. I am not writing him (or Berra) off. I think they both have a chance. And I really hope they are successful. But I think there are flags and I think we would be naive to ignore those because of a few decent starts in December.

Even looking at Ramo's full body of work his stats are respectable for a goalie on a sub par team. The goalies stats: Ramo: GS 12; SV% 0.907; GAA 2.67; P% 0.542 (1-game over 500) Berra: GS 13; SV% 0.896; GAA 3.18; P% 0.385 (3-games under 500) MacDonald: GS 7; SV% 0.885; GAA 3.17; P% 0.500 (At 500) In terms of the schedule Ramo has had the roughest treatment. 75% of his starts have been against teams currently in the playoffs (the other two are just under 60%). He has also had long gaps between starts. Though he has had a healthier team in front of him than Berra. Ramo also has 2 of the second half back to backs (Mac has 2, Berra has 1). By the eye test Ramo has been much better. There has been notable improvement and he doesn't let in the frequent softies that Berra does. Right now there isn't any question on who has been the best goalie. I am still boggled on how Berra got so many starts in November. I would keep Berra up and keep a good cycle between him and Ramo to avoid playing either. But if Berra doesn't pick up his game I would drop him to the AHL and bring MacDonald back up.

Starting to look that way. Though ever since Hartley has started a decent rotation both goalies have been pretty solid.

Schedule each goalie for two starts. If the goalie earns it throw a third. Otherwise rotate. No more crazy rotations like we saw in November. Not unless a goalie is lights out. That isn't good for either goalie. That is obvious advise straight out of the coaches for dummies guidebook. Unfortunately Hartley and company have been trying to make 1 and 1 equal 3.

Fans clearly don't have access to all of the information. We also aren't hockey professionals. But you can say that about any hockey discussion. Yet we are all here. Plus, this isn't some sort of mystery. We aren't talking about advanced mathematics here. More often than not there isn't some sort of inside information smoking gun supported by special training. Most of the time the coaches decision not do what was obvious ends up being the wrong decision. The coaches are fallible. Having goalie A play almost every start when he isn't playing well while goalie B gets cold on the bench is clearly not the right decision IMO. Not when they are both young and unproven at the NHL level. It doesn't take insider knowledge to see that Hartely preferred Berra from the start and was giving him more opportunity than the other goalies were getting. Doesn't matter now. Ramo is getting the starts. I just hope Ramo doesn't find himself on a really short leash and Berra gets to start every game the first time Ramo falters.

MacDonald and Ramo: Oct 3: Ramo earns the first start in camp. He has a decent game against a power offense of Washington in his (basically) NHL debut. He loses in a SO. Oct 4: MacDonald gets the start. Second of a back to back so fair enough. He does what he does. Rarely bad. Rarely good. But he has a decent game and he gets the win. Oct 6: MacDonald gets another start. The coach says that he got the win so he gets to start. Again, fair enough. He lets in 5 goals on 28 shots. Despite that he isn't completely horrific. The game gets to OT. Oct 9: The first perplexing goalie decision. MacDonald gets the start again. Ramo has only one game to this point and MacDonald wasn't very good the game before. Sitting Ramo for a week isn't making much sense. Fortunately MacDonald puts in his only great game of the season and gets the first star and the win. Oct 11: After the great game previously MacDonald gets the start. Understandable this time. MacDonald is okay. He doesn't see much work but he keeps the goals against at 2 and gets the win. Oct 16: After a five day break and on the back of two wins the Flames go with MacDonald. Can't blame them too much. But Ramo has sat for two weeks now and only has one game played. Meanwhile the Flames are playing 33 year old career back-up as the starter. MacDonald isn't great in this one. He lets in 3 goals on 22 shots (all at EV) and the Flames lose one where they outplayed the opponent. Oct 19: 16 days later Ramo gets his second start. The Flames are absolutely stomped by the Sharks in what might be (to that point) the worst game of the season. Ramo lets in 5 on 35 shots. Though 3 are on the PP. Oct 21: The Flames break the trend and give Ramo the start despite the prior mediocre game. He rewards them with the win. The Flames are out shot but Ramo is perfect EV and keeps the GA down to 2 on special teams. Oct 22: It is the second game in a back to back so MacDonald predictably gets the start. The Flames aren't good tonight. MacDonald is his usual okay but gets the loss. Oct 24: Back to Ramo. The Flames can't play Dallas this season. This one is no exception. The Flames and Ramo are both pretty dreadful in this one. Oct 26: The Flames are showing some patience in Ramo. Plus, it is pretty clear they are done with MacDonald. Despite the bad start the game before he gets to go again. Good thing they do as the Flames put together their best game of the season. Ramo is really good as well. Good win. Oct 30: Ramo looks to be the starter now. After a four day break and a win the game before he gets the predictable start. Too bad. The goalie on the other end (Bernier) was better then Ramo this night. Despite out shooting the Leafs 43 to 21 the Flames lose 3-2. Nov 1: MacDonald really struggled in this one. The Flames played a decent game against Detroit. But MacDonald let in 4 on 22 shots. The Flames could only score 3 times. Berra and Ramo: Nov 3: MacDonald gets demoted and Berra gets the call. He is up against Chicago in his first game. An odd decision since Ramo is rested. But Hartley has been chomping at the bit since camp to get Berra in the net so in the net he goes. It is a fortunate decision as Berra plays one of his only great games of the season and gets first star and the OT win. Nov 5: You have to give Berra the start after his last game. Unfortunately he isn't very good. In what might be one of the worst performances by any Flame goalie this season he lets in 5 goals on 24 shots. Nov 7: The decision to go with Berra again is a little odd. Ramo hasn't played in over a week and Berra was dreadful the game before. But the Flames are entering a back to back so the goalies have to split the starts. So it isn't that odd. Neither the Flames or Berra are very good. The Flames post the loss. Nov 8: The Flames look like they are on the second half of a back to back. Ramo is mediocre and gets the 4-2 loss. Nov 12: With Ramo only getting a start on the back to back so far in November many looked for him to get the start. But Berra goes in. Neither was great in the prior two games so it is an odd but defensible decision. Berra has a pretty darn good game. He gets the first star despite the OT loss. Nov 14: Going with Berra is automatic after his last outing. Unfortunately it is against Dallas. And the Flames can't play Dallas. Berra gets trounced and pulled half way through. Ramo is a little better. But not by much. Nov 16: The coaching staff seems to like giving the goalies another shot after a bad start. So Berra goes in. The Flames dominate the first two periods. But they fall apart in the third. Berra's ability to let in soft goals is on display and he lets in 3 in the third period. Nov 18: This is the first game where Hartley's bias to play Berra really shows. To this point the only start Ramo has had in November was in the second of a back to back. Berra just had two pretty bad games. There isn't any defense to playing Berra in this start. Except that Berra plays pretty well. Despite letting in four Berra brings the Flames to a SO that they have no business being in. He then puts forward a great SO performance and gets the win. Nov 20: Tough not to reward Berra with the start after the last game. But Ramo has sat almost two weeks now and has one start in the month. Meanwhile Berra hasn't been all that good. He isn't very good in what was one of the most boring hockey games of the year. The Flames lose in OT. Nov 22: In a bizarre decision Berra gets the start yet again. The collective hockey world goes "huh". The Flames win in spite of not very good goal tending. Though Berra is once again good in the SO. Nov 27: Somehow, someway, Berra gets the start again. Sure he had the win the game before. But he wasn't very good. Ramo has had one start all month in the second of a back to back. This is Berra's 10 start giving him more starts then any other Flames goalie. And he joined the team just over 3 weeks ago. Bizarre. Berra isn't very good and records the loss. But the Flames as a whole didn't play well. Nov 29: Unbelievably Berra gets another start. That leaves Ramo with two starts in November, both the second of a back to back. Berra isn't good. He gets pulled in the final 10 and Ramo comes in. Nov 30: Ramo gets the second start of a back to back. Thankfully he plays a really solid game. This is the first time all season the Flames have let in less then 2 goals. Ramo gets the first star and the win. Dec 4: Tough not to give Ramo the start after the last game. He backs up the prior performance with another 1 goal game. This one despite seeing 30 shots on net. I didn't have a huge problem with the rotation in October. I thought it was an odd decision to start MacDonald on Oct 9. But when the decision pays off the coach gets a pass. I think they played MacBackup way too much. But the Flames were winning and all of the decisions on starts were defensible. November is another matter. Sending MacDonald down and calling up Berra made sense. I didn't agree with the Nov 3 start against Chicago. But it paid off and they wanted to get Berra a game right away. So that was okay. The Nov 7 decision to start Berra was a little odd as well. But the coaching staff has consistently let their goalies get a game after a bad start. More often then not they have been rewarded with a rebound game so I can't complain to much about that. Nov 12 was another odd decision. But again, it paid off. Plus, getting Berra some ice time is defensible. And neither he or Ramo had been lights out recently. Nov 16 was another of the rebound opportunities. Nov 18 though it all falls apart. There isn't much defense to starting Berra. It pays off though. The start Nov 22 is even more bizarre. But we win. So the coaches are getting away with the odd decisions so far. But the starts on Nov 27 and 29 aren't defensible. Berra is getting the starts despite poor play and Ramo is rotting on the bench. Berra has had three good games. His first game against Chicago. His fourth game in an OT loss against San Jose. His seventh game in a SO winner against Winnipeg. His other 8 games have varied from Meh to Horrible. That includes his last four games. Which is why is was so perplexing that Hartley kept playing him while Ramo sat on the bench. I am not sold that Ramo will be an NHL starter. I am not even sold that he will be better then Berra. He wasn't particularly good in October. But he hasn't deserved the treatment he has received from the coach over the last half of November. Hopefully the last two weeks have removed the bias Hartley and the Flames have towards Berra. From this point forward they should play the hot hand with no preference given to either goalie.

I never said he is elite, will be elite, or should be considered elite. I never said you said he was elite. Honestly I am not sure where that is coming from. I said the rotation he is on is the kind normally reserved for elite goalies. Since Berra has entered the NHL he has started more games then any other goalie in the NHL. Total start are misleading since he didn't start in the NHL. His game doesn't back that up. Meanwhile a goalie that we committed a two year contract hasn't had a start in over three weeks. There is nothing in the above paragraph that is false, misleading, or complicated. It is a very simple point. And one that has raised more then just my eyebrows. As for Hartley trying to win games, it isn't working. He shouldn't be trying to lose. But development and seeing what we have in the prospects needs to be a priority.