robrob74
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Posts posted by robrob74
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Eric from the Athletic mentions Detroit might be in the market for a goalie. He suggested that Jersey might reengage talks on Markstrom, but if those don't garner results, could Detroit be interested in our Goalie?
he suggested Husso and a first could do it. But the flames prefer getting a center in any Markstrom trade.
begs to question, which center is out there that can aid a Markstrom return?
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Is Heiskanen that much worse than Makar? I think the difference is whether you want a specific kind of D.
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10 minutes ago, sak22 said:
Petterson was part of the 3 elite afterwards I referred to, Necas is good but not in that class and I'd put him down the list behind guys drafted after him like Suzuki and Thomas.
yup! But mostly pointing out the quality taken after they took Patrick that year that they missed out on. Still a big blow. -
1 hour ago, sak22 said:
I’d rather have there problem than Philly who took a consensus top 2 pick and while 3 elite players went after.
You also have petterson & Necas but those are more hindsight in that draft -
7 minutes ago, cross16 said:
It's an analytics take on it. I think what the stars have done a nice job of doing is focussing on players with skill, talent and production and ignoring some of the traps of size and "potential". They take players who if they hit on will be stars, and if they miss can still carve out a depth role.
Contrast that to the Flames and in particular the picks of Boltman, Kuznetsov and Stromgren. I think in all 3 of these cases they Flames took players for the wrong reasons. Botlman was always a hard one to see but Kuzentsov they took him for size and Stromgren size and straight line speed. The problem with both is neither had any history of production so your basically trying to develop skills that arn't really there and that lowers the ceiling. Even if the Flames were right on Stromgren/Kuzentsov I think you are looking at a bottom pairing dman and a bottom 6 forward. They took a gamble and in an area with a low probability of it paying off.
That's essentially what he is saying.
That is a very large hyperbole considering how good Heskinen also is. I love Makar too but that's not as egregious as you make it sound.
I think it's more that they didn't really describe the analytics that I noticed, from the post.
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1 hour ago, The_People1 said:
They also picked Heiskanen and passed on the future greatest Defenseman of all mother time. It may go down as the biggest missed draft opportunity in Dallas Stars franchise history.
But ya, get lots of 1st and 2nd round picks and draft safe. Take the obvious pick and don't outsmart yourself.
who did they skip on?
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4 hours ago, cross16 said:
This is an interesting thread related to the "Dallas Model" idea and what the Stars did to have some success. Talks about some trends that the Stars used. Long story short, you arn't going to get there by taking long shots and flyers, you need to take players who had a good chance to hit.
The good news story is the Flames are pretty good in this area. Sure they have some misses (Kuznetsov, Boltmann, Stormgren are the primary outliers here) but what is really key to point out about the Stars is they made their headway in the first 2 rounds. That's where you can avoid the flyers and bet on talent so if the Flames can keep acquiring more picks in this area they've got a shot.
It doesn't really say much about their scouting, other than the fact they picked those picks at those draft positions. What were the players rankings? Ok, they draft well. It isn't actually saying what they say, that there is something telling about their picks?
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1 hour ago, The_People1 said:
Well, on one hand, I know what you are saying because if Gaudreau and Tkachuk stayed for big money, then I don't feel that's enough firepower to truly win a Cup. On the other hand, we spent that money anyways to lock up Huberdeau, Kadri, and Weegar so the Flames dodged a bullet but stepped on a landmine instead.
2 hours ago, Thebrewcrew said:Two wins in ten playoff games for Winnipeg in the past two seasons. Sure, tough matchups, but not good enough.
They’re pretty committed to that core too. A core that’s been largely underwhelming, aside from 2018.
That’s what the Flames could have been if they extended everyone. Think they dodged a bullet.
there is also spending assets to compete, trading for Monahan and Toffoli costs a lot. Something the Flames did their last year of those two, Tkachuk and Gaudreau, understanding it was an all-in year.
I was excited for the bet. I bought in, understanding that was the chance. I should have known better.
I was also hoping Hubie would have shown better.
I think Sutter was correct in his assessment of the team, but he also really soured me on the team as well. I get they canned him for it, but I think it went on for too long, the way he treated people and the media.
I get it's over. But is it? Or did they can him to save face?
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I wonder how much play style has to do with Huberdeau? The west isn't the east, and do the flames play his style of game?
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2 minutes ago, conundrumed said:
That's why Reaves was out slack-assing on the 1st and 3rd goals. lol
Do they even watch hockey?
might have been an article before the last game. I know they hated the moves and signings in the offseason. -
6 hours ago, conundrumed said:
I'm glad they stayed with Swayman. He is clearly in the Leafs heads, and has been all year.
I kinda wonder if it wouldn't have been a sweep already.
Boston may need Ullmark at some point, but that point isn't now.
Still impressed as heck with Boston's 3rd line. They're a handful for any team, I think.
Leafs continue to play Reaves, Brodie on LD. Wow. Coach much?
read an article by editor in leaf... that site based trereliving all year on signing Reaves, but in the article I just read was praising him in the playoffs as being super impactful, like the only thing working for them... if that's the case there is a lot more wrong with the team.
they'll find out Marner is super injured. Nylander still injured...
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6 hours ago, conundrumed said:
Dallas has cost control on a developing prospect, vs a 3rd liner at $5.8. Can't see it working out. @cross16 likely correct. Mangiapane has become a salary dump. Painful, but probably true. Also murmurs of his unhappiness, as ironic as that sounds.
Some days, my hopes exceed reality. Hate to see so much time invested turn into such promise and then come crashing down. At the end of the day, we have...hmmm, let's see, do the math...carry the 1 over....okay. Zero large, physical wingers. Coleman the only one that's close. Leading scorer...imagine that!
Maybe $5.8 can buy one?
edit
Okay, Pospisil. He's making inroads being one. He's kinda proving what we lack.
May not be true, but it seems we usually only ever have had one since the rebuild started after iggy was traded. It seems to be a weakness the org has had in scouting.
We had to sign plugs, like Bollig, and others who seemed like their role was the enforcer, which was why I think we got England.
i was at the game he fought two or three Canucks at once, was so fun!
But I think we've relegated one or two to the role as a second or third thought instead of it being a drafting mantra. Guys we can sign instead of making it part of team building through the draft.m
although, we did draft Ferland and Posposil. -
1 hour ago, cberg said:
Yeah, D wins championships, but you also need enough offence to win games. I was thinking this morning how many SC champs over the past couple decades have been led by "superstars", versus not? Not sure who are the superstars? Crosby probably tops of them all....
Since 2000 these teams have won a SC:
NJD-Brodeur, Niedermayer
Colorado Avalanche-Roy, McKinnon, Forsberg, Sakic
Detroit-Zetterburg, Lidstrom
TBL-Stamkos, Vasilevski
Carolina-Brind'Amour
Anaheim-Pronger, Getzlaf
Pittsburg-Crosby, Malkin, Fleury
Chicago-Kane, Toews
Boston-Chara
LAK-Kopitar
Washington-Ovechkin
St Louis-
Vegas-Eichel
In this same time period Calgary had Iginla, Kiprusoff.... never quite put it together, although 2004 in retrospect should have been.
PS: Great Stromgren game-winning goal for the Wranglers last night.
you can also add Makar to the Avs.TBL also had Hedman and other pretty close to elite D, and Point?
Pits had an in-prime Letang who was bordering on Elite. I dunno if some might consider him that.
Didn't Anaheim also have Niedermayer when they won? Detroit also had Datsyuk. And Colorado, did they have Rob Blake when Sakic and Forsberg won?Chicago had an elite D in Keith, Seabrook great at defending.
Boston had Bergeron and the weasel guy .
LA had Doughty
Ovechkin had elite C with him and can't think of the D.
St Louis has close to elite D and a solid forward group. Probably as close as Calgary will get to if they skip ahead of the retooling.
Since it's the way the organization tends to trend, I think them and Dallas is kind of how I feel they should build, also Carolina.
Draft well and build and shore up a solid core, keep drafting well and only trade the tertiary players once those players can be supplanted by younger players.
i really think there's a solid foundation built on all those cup winners and a commitment to the elite players to add around them. What they all have in common are solid building and years of it.
in my mind, they built then sacrificed futures once the window opened up, and instead of sacrificing future to fill holes quicker thus maintaining holes.
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1 hour ago, conundrumed said:
I have not watched Russians this year, so my opinion is virtually zero. Whereas last year I watched a fair few with Michkov and Simashev. Just in reading, I don't think the top 2 this year are as good as the top 2 last year.
Artamonov seems like a total wildcard for where he might land.
As far as the Flames, I'd say they have 5 really solid bullets in the chamber. They should come away with a nice mix of skill and potential. Potential is definitely the most under-rated quality, as your trying to project guys 3-4 yrs out.
Jiri Fischer's kid, Lukas, comes to mind. Plays for the Sting. He's an honest 6'3" right now, but is likely not done growing. Chances are better than avg that he'll top out at least 6'5". That would change the dynamic of his ranking right now. So they say he's raw. He has great skills, but it's expected that he's still growing. He likely won't be around at the Dallas pick, but I'd give him heavy consideration if he was.
Because there is a lot of potential there, and lineage, of course plays into it. Jiri's like 6'6" and his older bro is 6'7" if I remember correctly.
So it's pretty fickle between what a kid is now vs @ 23yo.
I don't envy NHL scouts, it's such a fine line.
For the record, I still think Kerins and Stromgren are our best prospects. People tend to write things off way too early. I also think Sam Morton is a sneaky good add. Older, but hey, if he wants to be a bottom 6 C at 26-27, I'm all for it.
You can't just have 4 top 2 dmen in a cap world, or you better be deciding which ones to trade to boost other areas that will undoubtedly be weaknesses.
Look no further than the Leafs and Oilers. You can be very O-centic if you like, but you're going to have big problems with D-centric teams and stellar goalies. A big problem.
Kind of obvious, I know. You need to account for more than potential stars when drafting.
I wonder if it is a coincidence that Conroy traded for a bunch of Russians and have Russians in mind for the draft or signings? Might start fostering a community comfort for some up and coming prospects. -
22 minutes ago, cberg said:
Question for all you draft experts: How many players in this draft have a realistic/possible ceiling of a/ Top Line, b/ Top Pair D, c/Starting Goalie? Who are they? How many in the 1st Round?
tough call. How many times has any one here actually watched any of the prospects? How many times live in person?
as 18 year olds they can be ahead right now but then drop off the face if the earth once they go pro.
To me, and this is going off of radio announcers, conversations here, this draft is D heavy. After some top forwards there might be a handful of top/middle sixers? My bet it is closer to the Poirier and Klimchuk draft. Either way in many deep drafts teams still miss on players and draft guys who don't make it.
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On 4/25/2024 at 2:15 PM, The_People1 said:
I guess what disappoints me the most is that he said "Dallas" but Dallas didn't win a Cup. So are we mimicking models that bounce back into the playoffs quickly but don't necessarily win Cups? But ya, maybe DAL wins a Cup here this year. Still possible. We shall see.
depends on your analysis. You're looking at it with one lens, Cup. I get it's the ultimate goal. Should be.
What I see is a team that drafted well and hit on three very very good players in one draft, and so I think he is referring to scouting and drafting and hitting on multiple players in a draft and then developing into a top team.
how many years are top teams top teams without winning the cup? And how many go deep many times without winning?
how many go the, if we could just get in and then we have a chance model?
which of the two question would you prefer? sustained excellence or just get in and you have a chance??
to me, you're sounding a bit of both? Do you want division winner and consistent playoffs and not a in one year miss a year out two and back in again kind of team?
We all want a team like Tampa who has a bunch of chances or Pittsburgh...
i want to see a huge shift in philosophy. I want to see a good plan. I want to see things change. Sure we "draft well." We draft nhlers. But I sometimes think, ok we have nhl players who can play in the league. Sure that is a measurement of success, but how do you measure impact players teams draft?
i measure success similarly to you, only difference is I would settle for not winning and having a team that is relevant and committed to excellence at all times. Gretzky didn't win after leaving Edmonton. Does that make his time in La a failure? Should he be considered the GOAT, or should it be Richard or Messier or others? Gretz wasn't able to do it without a stacked team...
just meaning a team can be great and win once. 80's Flames...
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I think our problem with Mange is we've had too many similar players. I'd like him with guys who are bigger and find room.
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1 hour ago, conundrumed said:
Are you actually a Flames fan? /s
I am beginning to wonder if I am. Wondering if the game is passing me by.
It is hard to keep to a vision because trends change after just a few seasons.
Flames seem to traditionally be a "put on your workboots" team. I hope there is a shift to a team that has more movement. Watching a PP stand around there is no wonder it was bad for awhile there. But it is an example of those things.
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2 hours ago, cross16 said:
Well tough thing with Kuzmenko is that contract was based off 1 year in the NHL. Sharangovich has a few years so there is more to base on but I do think there are similarities so it's a potential comp for sure. Kuzmenko is the better goal score and offensive player but I think Sharangovich is more well rounded. He produced on both the PP and 5 on 5 at a good clip, one of their better PKers too. Can play a harder role against opposition too where I think Kuzmenko you have to bury.
but I do think he gets overrated for his defensive game. It's ok, but it's not good, and while he owns a wicked shot he isn't great at making other around him better.
They won't do this but I think the more I look at the less i'd re-sign him too. His situation leads to a bad deal more often than not. Hopefully the Flames handle the negotiation well.
thanks for the reply. I think you're right... good middle 6 on a good team.I think Conroy probably has a pulse on the kinds of players he wants. We will find out if he has a vision soon enough, a philosophy and so on.
Be good to get some assets from guys like him.
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1 hour ago, cross16 said:
Think this really comes down to how willing are you to stretch the definition of elite.
Dobson, not for me. Very good, but not elite. Hronek not even close. Hronek was just the right pair for an already elite dman in Hughes.
If your plan is to trade for an elite dman and actually think you can harbor more then one then good luck but i'd reckon your are really stretch the definition of "elite".
yup, and I wouldn't necessary call them elite. If I did I didn't mean to, only that they got some good players. Elite is a tough definition. I'd think there are only a few that are in certain positions.
Hronek has been good for Van, Dobson a good pick.
I also don't like thinking, just because a player was drafted by a team that traded for a Flames pick would end up the same player the Flames would have drafted. They have their own list and might have drafted someone else. Could be we wouldn't even have drafted Dobson with that pick.
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1 hour ago, conundrumed said:
Re Honzek and the, "shoulda taken Sandin-Pellikka" crowd. I very highly doubt the Wings org will remove him from the SHL next year. He still has a ways to go. When he does come over, he'll be in the A for at least a season. There are no shortcuts. 2 years out at very best. I'm sure that we can afford Honzek that kind of leeway also.
I hope we go that route with all the prospects.-
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59 minutes ago, The_People1 said:
Well, worse case is we get the right player but he trends Sam Bennett.
worst case, we decide he's ready just because he can play in the NHL in relation to our roster and opt for the shiny new toy instead of developing them.
id prefer they dominate and maybe work on the missing parts of their games in a league where it won't matter and they won't get sat for making a mistake. Develop into a man, add one more year of man bod, then possibly play a year in the AHL, more rounding out their games.
development .
What players have we done well developing? And which ones might we consider failures? We need to learn from both.
Two off the top:
Mange
Dube (earlier results, but started to move him around the roster too much)
I get every player is different, but I think we need to start developing the players into what they want to be and what we want them to be. Hone them!
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57 minutes ago, The_People1 said:
But it's hard to trade for a young elite D. Especially if you are talking about Makar/Heiskanen level. It requires we give back an elite player in return and we don't have those, let alone have those in excess.
Byram Bowen was traded but he struggled with post-concussion problems and he's only 22. He might be retired from the NHL by 26.
Seth Jones was traded a couple of times. Perhaps overrated from the beginning. He plays like a 3/4/5 type D being paid $9.5-mil.
Hanifin types get moved all the time but they are not the elite variety. They are good complementary types.
When is the last time a young elite D was moved?
I agree we need the next Mark Giordano. Norris-level D. Leader. Captain. They are hard to find from trade. Need to draft them.
how often can you get a Hronek like the Canucks did?
How many players are 3rd pair needing a chance? And do those teams that have them see them as that?
13 minutes ago, jjgallow said:Well there's Fox and Hamilton 😅
had we not traded for Hamonic, we might have had a decent player in, I think it was Dobson?
Although, maybe we'd have taken Farabee? Or other players not in the NHL now.
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3 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said:
Friday on 32 thoughts podcast, Friedman said that Utah wants continuity and it is looking like Armstrong will continue as GM and Tourigny as coach
has Armstrong been good? For me, I'd gut that organization, they've been so bad.
Realistic (and unrealistic) Trades - 2024 Edition
in Flames Talk
Posted
we'd have to trade Vladar as well or buy him in the A