Flames & Losing For Higher Draft Order.

[DirtyDeeds]

JJ, I think you're right on this one, we seem to agree. I read it off and it was 2am where I am at so my head wasn't in the game... Haha...

I am in the "lose for pick camp" but cheer for them to win. I think the best we pick this year is 5th overall. I just want the near sure-fire NHLer. In a deep draft we lucked out on Monahan. He still needs a lot of work. He is relying on his smarts in the offensive zone but needs to work on skating and some positional play. Hope he still projects at a top end 2ndline C.

Cammalleri is going to remain a Flame because we're not going to get value for him. He just isn't playing that great. Maybe all you get is a2nd??? I guess that is better than nothing.

Prideis going to keep us ahead of all of the other teams. With the islanders losing Tavares, it will be hard for the Flames to not pass them in the standings especially with 3 games in hand.

I know we will go on some losing skids but I think the flames compete too hard.

I wonder if the Flames even make a major deal this deadline.

I am too... Lol

 

 

Huh... Compete too hard?? You either compete or you don't.... there is no throttle on this, there is no governor on it.

 

If you don't want them to compete then you get the Oilers and all their High profile #1 picks who don't bother to come to play except when they feel like it. You get players who don't care if "you get your moneys worth" or not.

 

There is no sitting on the fence about this. There is no middle ground.

[stubblejumper1]

We never said those that argue for sucking for a high pick aren't  fans. We questioned the ethics & morality of wanting your team to do that. Also wanting the high picks to grow in a system where losing is viewed as OK if it "might" get them better linemates some undetermined day in the future.

Ask them to shoot for playing in the IIHF WC rather then playing for the SC. The best players from eliminated teams are pretty good but most fans aren't watching because there are playoffs for Lord Stanley's Cup.

Unethical, sure, but immoral?  Not a chance.

[robrob1974]

Huh... Compete too hard?? You either compete or you don't.... there is no throttle on this, there is no governor on it.

 

If you don't want them to compete then you get the Oilers and all their High profile #1 picks who don't bother to come to play except when they feel like it. You get players who don't care if "you get your moneys worth" or not.

 

There is no sitting on the fence about this. There is no middle ground.

 

I meant compete too hard to fall any further in the standings, they work harder than any of the other teams in that bunch (Panthers, Oilers, Islanders). So what I was meaning was, we're staying at 5th or 6th overall again. Which is fine. I am happy they're competing.

 

I know our draft history has seemingly taken a turn for the better the last few years, but I am still afraid of it. We're still not that deep in the system and a lot of our skilled prospects are smaller. We've created a competitive farm team, but still yet to see how they turn out. You never really know what we have yet until they make those next steps.  

 

I just don't think you get a Kane, a Toews, a Duchene, or any types of those players at 5th overall. I am happy the team is trying, it's great. But I worry about the future as well by not getting players that can be stars in the league. 

How many times do you get a Getzlaf or Perry later in the draft? Not very often.

 

We need Kehatch to do another research project on what players turn out like when drafted 5th or 6th overall (historically). haha.

[DirtyDeeds]

I meant compete too hard to fall any further in the standings, they work harder than any of the other teams in that bunch (Panthers, Oilers, Islanders). So what I was meaning was, we're staying at 5th or 6th overall again. Which is fine. I am happy they're competing.

 

I know our draft history has seemingly taken a turn for the better the last few years, but I am still afraid of it. We're still not that deep in the system and a lot of our skilled prospects are smaller. We've created a competitive farm team, but still yet to see how they turn out. You never really know what we have yet until they make those next steps.  

 

I just don't think you get a Kane, a Toews, a Duchene, or any types of those players at 5th overall. I am happy the team is trying, it's great. But I worry about the future as well by not getting players that can be stars in the league. 

How many times do you get a Getzlaf or Perry later in the draft? Not very often.

 

We need Kehatch to do another research project on what players turn out like when drafted 5th or 6th overall (historically). haha.

well if your scouting is good you can get a Pavel Datsyuk in the 6th round if there is one.

 

I really don't see this obsession & need to getting a top pick. Look at the Boston lineup. They have 2 of their own 1st round picks (9th & 25th) playing for them.

[jjgallow]

Boston's a good organization.

 

We're not Boston.

[robrob1974]

well if your scouting is good you can get a Pavel Datsyuk in the 6th round if there is one.

 

I really don't see this obsession & need to getting a top pick. Look at the Boston lineup. They have 2 of their own 1st round picks (9th & 25th) playing for them.

 

That's just it, we're not Boston and our drafting record has been terrible for the most part over the last 20+ years. That's what I am going off of, our long term draft record. 

[Flyerfan52]

Boston's a good organization.

 

We're not Boston.

They are.

I'd prefer the Flames follow their example rather then that of the NYI & another un-named team.

 

We aren't Boston, Detroit, LA nor the other teams either. We are the Flames & if we want to imitate a team that won the SC recently Boston is a pretty good role model to show you don't have to sink to the bottom to get good.

[robrob1974]

Nor are we Detroit or the Sharks. 

[Flyerfan52]

That's just it, we're not Boston and our drafting record has been terrible for the most part over the last 20+ years. That's what I am going off of, our long term draft record. 

Have we still got the same scouts?

Do we have more scouts eying players?

 

Most players drated 20 years ago are retired.

Nor are we Detroit or the Sharks. 

So you'd rather we pursue the Oilers example I guess.

[robrob1974]

They are.

I'd prefer the Flames follow their example rather then that of the NYI & another un-named team.

 

We aren't Boston, Detroit, LA nor the other teams either. We are the Flames & if we want to imitate a team that won the SC recently Boston is a pretty good role model to show you don't have to sink to the bottom to get good.

 

It says something about our scouting when we had a chance at those players.  A lot of their best players were drafted in the 2nd and 3rd rounds. How often have we found a diamond in the rough (later rounds) like the Bostons? 

Have we still got the same scouts?

Do we have more scouts eying players?

 

Most players drated 20 years ago are retired.

So you'd rather we pursue the Oilers example I guess.

 

Or how about the Chicago model? I believe they drafted 1st overall and 3rd overall to get Kane and Toews?

For every time you argue the Oiler model there are numerous teams who are successful from getting high picks, and I understand that there are also other teams that aren't. 

I don't remember anyone claiming the Blackhawks losing on purpose just to get high picks. I don't think we should either.

[jjgallow]

They are.

I'd prefer the Flames follow their example rather then that of the NYI & another un-named team.

 

We aren't Boston, Detroit, LA nor the other teams either. We are the Flames & if we want to imitate a team that won the SC recently Boston is a pretty good role model to show you don't have to sink to the bottom to get good.

 

Except that most of those teams actually DID tank.

 

They just drafted and developed well enough that, in theory, it could be explained that their success was not solely due to tanking.  Maybe, potentially.

 

I agree with you in theory.

 

But in practical terms, how does our organization become as competitive as the ones you've listed?

 

The answer is...we don't.  Not until we hit rock bottom.  

 

Not until Ken King leaves, is forced out, or learns hockey.

[Lucid_Flame91]

Or how about the Chicago model? I believe they drafted 1st overall and 3rd overall to get Kane and Toews?

For every time you argue the Oiler model there are numerous teams who are successful from getting high picks, and I understand that there are also other teams that aren't. 

I don't remember anyone claiming the Blackhawks losing on purpose just to get high picks. I don't think we should either.

 

I was about to say screw the boston model, Chicago clearly has done it right,  and no one can really say otherwise.

[kehatch]

They are.

I'd prefer the Flames follow their example rather then that of the NYI & another un-named team.

We aren't Boston, Detroit, LA nor the other teams either. We are the Flames & if we want to imitate a team that won the SC recently Boston is a pretty good role model to show you don't have to sink to the bottom to get good.

We didn't follow their example. We are half a decade out of the playoffs and have had a horrible drafting record to date.

You need great drafting over a long period of time with players constantly entering your roster to be like Boston or Detroit. You can't just decide one day to be like one of those teams. Doesn't work like that.

[DirtyDeeds]

I was about to say screw the boston model, Chicago clearly has done it right,  and no one can really say otherwise.

Chicago is a terrible example to follow.

 

It took an owner dying, bringing in the best hockey mind of the last few generations and a bunch of coaching changes to get it right. You could say they, like the Pens, got lucky in the one draft.

 

1 playoff appearance in 10 years is hardly a shining example for everyone to follow..

[Lucid_Flame91]

Chicago is a terrible example to follow.

 

It took an owner dying, bringing in the best hockey mind of the last few generations and a bunch of coaching changes to get it right. You could say they, like the Pens, got lucky in the one draft.

 

1 playoff appearance in 10 years is hardly a shining example for everyone to follow..

 

 

Kinda sounds like the flames when you talk like that

[senor_incendiarse]

We didn't follow their example. We are half a decade out of the playoffs and have had a horrible drafting record to date.

You need great drafting over a long period of time with players constantly entering your roster to be like Boston or Detroit. You can't just decide one day to be like one of those teams. Doesn't work like that.

Although Boston has done more than we have in the draft if you evaluate their past 10 its not that impressive, they've definitely hit a few times in the 2nd and 3rd's but lets be honest Boston has done everything right in overall team management, they got some luck with Thomas, got the most significant ufa in the cap era (Chara), stole Rask from the Leafs.  And I consider those 3 guys more relevant to their success than any post lockout draft pick.

[kehatch]

Although Boston has done more than we have in the draft if you evaluate their past 10 its not that impressive, they've definitely hit a few times in the 2nd and 3rd's but lets be honest Boston has done everything right in overall team management, they got some luck with Thomas, got the most significant ufa in the cap era (Chara), stole Rask from the Leafs. And I consider those 3 guys more relevant to their success than any post lockout draft pick.

Every great team had some luck. Do you think Detroit would have waited until the 6th round to pick up Datsyuk if they had any idea how good he would be?

The point is that teams like Detroit and Boston never got into the situation the Flames are in. If they did they wouldn't be Detroit or Boston.

We dug ourselves into a huge hole. Those teams are great because they had sustained success and never dug themselves into this hole.

Chances are we need a few seasons to dig ourselves out. We can't attract UFAs like them. We can't afford the assets to trade like them. And we don't have Flames drafted players at every age bracket to rely on like them. We aren't them. Drafting high is no guarantee of success. But that doesn't mean it doesn't provide a big boost to our chances.

[robrob1974]

Kinda sounds like the flames when you talk like that

 

Exactly!

We haven't had a hockey mind in management since Cliff Fletcher left. 

 

It's like what Kehatch said, you can't just decide one day to wake up and try and be like those teams… Maybe in the next few years you can, but these are the years where we're laying a foundation to build more on top of, which is why I want the higher picks.

 

We say we gotta get it right this time around and that means getting it right, now. With the talk of expansion I think it's going to be even harder to build teams because the talent pool will be thinned. Yes players overall are more skilled, but the top end guys are still the top end guys. Although that's a whole other conversation. But we gotta get it right.

[robrob1974]

What do you guys think of players around where we'd draft who are in Button rankings? 

 

http://www.tsn.ca/draftcentre/feature/?id=49649

 

I don't really know much about them. It seems like there are a lot of LWers. 

 

You never know what the teams who draft ahead of us will do. 

[Flyerfan52]

What do you guys think of players around where we'd draft who are in Button rankings? 

 

http://www.tsn.ca/draftcentre/feature/?id=49649

 

I don't really know much about them. It seems like there are a lot of LWers. 

 

You never know what the teams who draft ahead of us will do. 

Unless top 3 see who those take. If Ekblad, Reinhart & Bennett are gone move down for extras.

A few teams (including Flyers) could use a LW.

Or just trade the pick outright for a partially developed prospect in a position we have need.

[robrob1974]

Unless top 3 see who those take. If Ekblad, Reinhart & Bennett are gone move down for extras.

A few teams (including Flyers) could use a LW.

Or just trade the pick outright for a partially developed prospect in a position we have need.

 

Would you trade Baertschi and our 1st for a chance at any of those top3? or another of our prospects?

Or maybe Gaudreau and our 1st? For any of the top 3 picks?

[Flyerfan52]

Would you trade Baertschi and our 1st for a chance at any of those top3? or another of our prospects?

Or maybe Gaudreau and our 1st? For any of the top 3 picks?

I'm not ga-ga over Baertschi or Gaudreau like some.

I'd trade any combo of those 2 or our 1st if we're sure we don't get Ekblad for Ristolainen (or Nurse but odds are slimmer on that) letting Buffalo pick 2 of the 3.

Or either prospect & or 1st to flip picks for that 1st overall.

[SheriforPM]

Not sure why all the love for Detroit, they have been declining for years and now are in danger of missing the playoffs. Sure they had a great run and won a couple of cups but they should have been retooling the last few years and have let it slide like we did. Maybe not to our extent but if making the playoffs is the measurement, they are about to find out what it's like to suck.

[kehatch]

Not sure why all the love for Detroit, they have been declining for years and now are in danger of missing the playoffs. Sure they had a great run and won a couple of cups but they should have been retooling the last few years and have let it slide like we did. Maybe not to our extent but if making the playoffs is the measurement, they are about to find out what it's like to suck.

 

They haven't missed the playoffs in 22 years and are the closest thing to a modern dynasty that the NHL has.  Last year they weren't supposed to make the playoffs and yet took the Stanley Cup champions to 7 games in the second round.  Despite the focus on winning they still have a top 10 prospect pool in the NHL

[The_People1]

Not sure why all the love for Detroit, they have been declining for years and now are in danger of missing the playoffs. Sure they had a great run and won a couple of cups but they should have been retooling the last few years and have let it slide like we did. Maybe not to our extent but if making the playoffs is the measurement, they are about to find out what it's like to suck.

 

It's been rumoured that management has wanted to clear out the old (like Dan Cleary) and bring in the kids.  Their problem is Mike Babcock veto'd that motion and it's been a political struggle in Detroit the past year.

 

They still draft well and if they decide to "tank" for one year, they already have drafted and developed the peripheral pieces (depth guys) to come out of a rebuild strong.