Flames & Losing For Higher Draft Order.

[MAC331]

With that lineup you could argue it was tanking on managements part.  However, players and coaches are not wired to tank, they play to win.

 

On the other hand, given the situation (out of playoffs) and just a handful of games remaining, providing an opportunity to the younger players is a future investment and gives them a taste of what’s required to make the next step.  This tank talk will never go away until we become a playoff team with all roster spots solidified.  Right now we are trying to build a team and develop players.  I would not call that tanking.

The Flames are simply going about their business and evaluating for next season. If people want to call it tanking you can't stop them. The chips will fall where they do anyways.

[The_People1]

With that lineup you could argue it was tanking on managements part.  However, players and coaches are not wired to tank, they play to win.

 

On the other hand, given the situation (out of playoffs) and just a handful of games remaining, providing an opportunity to the younger players is a future investment and gives them a taste of what’s required to make the next step.  This tank talk will never go away until we become a playoff team with all roster spots solidified.  Right now we are trying to build a team and develop players.  I would not call that tanking.

 

All tanks are managerial, repeated countless times in this thread.  All tanks are managerial.

 

Players play to win.  Coaches coach to win. 

 

Therefore, if a lineup is considered tanking on the managerial parts, then that's called tanking.

[jjgallow]

Hickey. 

 

Andersson. 

 

Kylington. 

 

Your argument is invalid. 

 

Um....you forgot Kanzig.

 

So kind of joking...kind of not.   There's been entire threads on here comparing Kanzig as the next Zdeno Chara.

 

And someone is literally going to come to his rescue for this humor...because that kind of thing happens on here.  Wait for it.

 

So, in seriousness...they're all great prospects to have, but I'm talking about core impact players, top 4 D.

 

Yes, they all technically have some sort of percentage shot at it.  But realistically:

 

Hickey:  no.

Andersson:  unlikely after this year's performance.  Not showing the needed progression

Kylington:     Probably shouldn't have been in the AHL.   Struggled.   We'll see.   

 

Which means....  one of Andersson or Kylington Might come through.  Almost definitely not both.   

 

And if they come through, it's going to take a  LONG time.   We will Not be a young team.

[phoenix66]

Arizona was missing Doan and Stone, so there was a good chance we win the game.  Playing Bollig almost 12 minutes doesn't help your argument, though.  

 

Had this been a game with playoff implications, there wouldn't have been a raft of kids.  Johnny would have played.  Bollig would not have played that much.

 

No, the Flames are not playing for a draft pick improvement.  Hartley wants to win as much as any coach.  The players are playing for contracts and jobs.  And pride.  You will see they try to beat Anaheim, LA, Vancouver and Edmonton.  Especially EDM and ANA.

 

Hiller will get at least one more start, and Backstrom will get the final game (or Hiller).

 

It just reinforces my argument.. you could have totally argued that starting Hiller Or Backstrom was to have Otio fresh for Anaheim,, but no , they played the hot hand.. the fact Phoenix was missng that many players too made playing Ortio increased the odds of winning even more

 

on that note, id actually start Backstrom in Anaheim.. just for the simple fact hes the only goalie in our organization who has won there lol.. play the kids too, they arent caught up in the curse

[MAC331]

It just reinforces my argument.. you could have totally argued that starting Hiller Or Backstrom was to have Otio fresh for Anaheim,, but no , they played the hot hand.. the fact Phoenix was missng that many players too made playing Ortio increased the odds of winning even more

 

on that note, id actually start Backstrom in Anaheim.. just for the simple fact hes the only goalie in our organization who has won there lol.. play the kids too, they arent caught up in the curse

Maybe we should put a defenseman in the net or is that to obvious.

[darth_henning]

Um....you forgot Kanzig.

 

So kind of joking...kind of not.   There's been entire threads on here comparing Kanzig as the next Zdeno Chara.

 

And someone is literally going to come to his rescue for this humor...because that kind of thing happens on here.  Wait for it.

 

So, in seriousness...they're all great prospects to have, but I'm talking about core impact players, top 4 D.

 

Yes, they all technically have some sort of percentage shot at it.  But realistically:

 

Hickey:  no.

Andersson:  unlikely after this year's performance.  Not showing the needed progression

Kylington:     Probably shouldn't have been in the AHL.   Struggled.   We'll see.   

 

Which means....  one of Andersson or Kylington Might come through.  Almost definitely not both.   

 

And if they come through, it's going to take a  LONG time.   We will Not be a young team.

 

Kanzig has size. And had he got his skating together he might have been a good bottom pairing guy with Engellend's size. Anyone who legitimately thought he would be Chara was.... under some misguided impressions. Same for Bruce. 

 

Your analysis of those three is...contrary to just about everyone elses. You're entitled to your opinion of course, but Hickey is 19, writing him off now when he's oing verry well is...questionable. 

 

Anderson and Kylington had slow seasons because they're adjusting to higher levels of competition. That tends to happen. 

 

All three of them have a decent chance at being top 4 D. None is a lock. But all will be challenging in about 3-4 years if they're going to...which is right about when we see Gio starting to decline off the top pair. 

[phoenix66]

Maybe we should put a defenseman in the net or is that to obvious.

or pull the goalie after the opening whistle.. say you're giving them Powerplay experience  

[jjgallow]

Your analysis of those three is...contrary to just about everyone elses. You're entitled to your opinion of course, but Hickey is 19, writing him off now when he's oing verry well is...questionable. 

 

Nobody's writing them off, it's a question as to whether they're even part of the conversation.

 

Give them time.  It's worth it.  I'm a firm believe in that.

 

When they hit 24, 25, there's a decent chance one of them will be a core player on this team.  Or, showing promise to be one.

 

And, Giordano will be 38.  Brodie will be 32. 

[AlbertaBoy12]

Nobody's writing them off, it's a question as to whether they're even part of the conversation.

 

Give them time.  It's worth it.  I'm a firm believe in that.

 

When they hit 24, 25, there's a decent chance one of them will be a core player on this team.  Or, showing promise to be one.

 

And, Giordano will be 38.  Brodie will be 32. 

Why are they not part of the conversation? Im curious what was wrong with andersson, you seem to have quite the opinion of players. Do you just look at stats and assume thats their season in a nutshell. Why is andersson not progressing for example?

[jjgallow]

I'm suspicious as to whether you read the post you replied to?

[AlbertaBoy12]

Why are they not part of the conversation? Im curious what was wrong with andersson, you seem to have quite the opinion of players. Do you just look at stats and assume thats their season in a nutshell. Why is andersson not progressing for example?

 

Nobody's writing them off, it's a question as to whether they're even part of the conversation.

 

Give them time.  It's worth it.  I'm a firm believe in that.

 

When they hit 24, 25, there's a decent chance one of them will be a core player on this team.  Or, showing promise to be one.

 

And, Giordano will be 38.  Brodie will be 32. 

I literally replied to a statement you made in my first sentence.

[The_People1]

Maybe we should put a defenseman in the net or is that to obvious.

 

Too late.  We already traded away Russell.

[jjgallow]

I literally replied to a statement you made in my first sentence.

 

you mean the question I asked?   Why the escalation? lol.   Doesn't really fit in well with the rest of what you replied to.

[cccsberg]

Um....you forgot Kanzig.

 

So kind of joking...kind of not.   There's been entire threads on here comparing Kanzig as the next Zdeno Chara.

 

And someone is literally going to come to his rescue for this humor...because that kind of thing happens on here.  Wait for it.

 

So, in seriousness...they're all great prospects to have, but I'm talking about core impact players, top 4 D.

 

Yes, they all technically have some sort of percentage shot at it.  But realistically:

 

Hickey:  no.

Andersson:  unlikely after this year's performance.  Not showing the needed progression

Kylington:     Probably shouldn't have been in the AHL.   Struggled.   We'll see.   

 

Which means....  one of Andersson or Kylington Might come through.  Almost definitely not both.   

 

And if they come through, it's going to take a  LONG time.   We will Not be a young team.

Not sure what you're smoking, or perhaps you have a very narrow, misguided? view of what a Top4 D actually is?

 

To me all of Kylington, Andersson, Hickey, Jokipakka, Wotherspoon, Nakladal and others... have Top4 D potential.  Some right now, some in 1-2 years.... Will they all get there?   Absolutely not, but mainly because unless we trade some of Brodie, Giordano and Hamilton there is ONLY 1 Top4 D spot available on the Flames in the next 5 years.......

[AlbertaBoy12]

you mean the question I asked?   Why the escalation? lol.   Doesn't really fit in well with the rest of what you replied to.

I dont get what we are talking about here. I asked you why you have a problem with anderssons progression specifically. I also asked why they arent in the conversation, you are confusing me. 

[jjgallow]

Not sure what you're smoking, or perhaps you have a very narrow, misguided? view of what a Top4 D actually is?

 

To me all of Kylington, Andersson, Hickey, Jokipakka, Wotherspoon, Nakladal and others... have Top4 D potential.  Some right now, some in 1-2 years.... Will they all get there?   Absolutely not, but mainly because unless we trade some of Brodie, Giordano and Hamilton there is ONLY 1 Top4 D spot available on the Flames in the next 5 years.......

 

There's a big difference between potential and projection.   

 

You might be right in terms of potential.   Keep in mind, I'm not talking about top 4 on an average team.

 

Our top 4, after a rebuild, should be top 4 on a top team.

 

IMHO, that kind of discussion is really limited to Kylington and Andersson.   But sure, anything is possible.

[jjgallow]

I dont get what we are talking about here. I asked you why you have a problem with anderssons progression specifically. I also asked why they arent in the conversation, you are confusing me. 

 

sorry.  I mean well.  it's a wording thing.

 

I never said Andersson wasn't in the conversation.   I never said he was.   I think it's pretty vague for him right now.  which isn't unusual at his age.

 

I have seen him play, and I Do place value on stats, and if that doesn't interest you, that's fine.   His last two seasons have been nearly identical.   He's not small, but he's not big in the NHL either.  He's going to feel the transition.   I'd love for him to be top 4 in 2 years.  If it happens, great.  But I think that's a pretty high expectation for Any 2nd round pick.   Especially when we don't see high production the next year.

 

Even if you're right about all the intangibles....and he's a big piece of the picture...we're talking Years.

[cccsberg]

sorry.  I mean well.  it's a wording thing.

 

I never said Andersson wasn't in the conversation.   I never said he was.   I think it's pretty vague for him right now.  which isn't unusual at his age.

 

I have seen him play, and I Do place value on stats, and if that doesn't interest you, that's fine.   His last two seasons have been nearly identical.   He's not small, but he's not big in the NHL either.  He's going to feel the transition.   I'd love for him to be top 4 in 2 years.  If it happens, great.  But I think that's a pretty high expectation for Any 2nd round pick.   Especially when we don't see high production the next year.

 

Even if you're right about all the intangibles....and he's a big piece of the picture...we're talking Years.

We did see high production this (the next...) year, just like we did last year.  I believe he was one of the top scoring D in the OHL?

[420since1974]

The two biggest changes from his last season:

He was voted assistant captain.

His +/- improved by 20.

 

He turns 20 in October, so he's eligible to play in the AHL next season.

A couple of years development in Stockton and he'll probably be ready for the Flames.

[kehatch]

That's a problem with using pure stats to judge progress. He is a PPG D man. Expecting his numbers to go up is unrealistic. Expecting his game to improve in other areas is. From all reports Andersson has progressed very well.

I think that D is actually one of our strongest positions in terms of developing players. Anderson, Kylington, and Hickey are three of our top prospects.

[420since1974]

I was not expecting to see his points rise this season.

 

I am impressed by the change in his +/-.

 

IMO, he is Calgary's best RHRD prospect.

[jjgallow]

We did see high production this (the next...) year, just like we did last year.  I believe he was one of the top scoring D in the OHL?

 

Hey.   So, yes it's the "just like last year" part that is the concern.   I know points aren't everything.   I know we only need to look at someone like Monahan's junior stats to see how misleading year over year comparisons can be.

 

But....Monahan didn't spend another year in junior after the draft.  And if he had, he would have most likely torn the league apart.

 

 

Andersson has The most points in the OHL this year.  So yeah...that's good.  Basically the same as last year.

 

Goal-wise, he's been less impressive.   His goals have gone down.  And, they weren't overly impressive last year either.

 

His penalties have dropped, also not great.

 

 

Now I'll say something positive.   Even though you don't like stats

 

His plus/minus tells a story of huge improvement.   And I believe it.

 

 

Bottom line.... a 6' defenceman who can't score 10 goals as a 19 year old in junior, is not an immediate top 4 projection to me.

 

But I DO believe he's improving in many areas.  And is a great prospect.   And there's MUCH more to it than that.

 

 

I'm not ruling him out as a prospect.   But the "special" factor isn't there.  If he does become a top 4 defenceman....it'll be a project.

 

And imho, we will be needing something sooner than that.

[darth_henning]

So....wait....

 

You're measuring a DEFENCEman on his ability to score goals. 

 

He has the most points in the league generating offence as a playmaker. I don't know what more you could possibly want than that. 

 

+/- has gone way up - so he's getting better defensively. 

 

PIM have gone down...how is that a bad thing? That means he's getting better and making fewer mistakes. 

 

I'm sorry but I don't see a single thing no to like about the kid. No he's not going to be here next year, but we aren't contending for the cup next year. 

 

16/17 - return to the playoffs

17/18 - playoff competitor

18/19 - cup competitor

 

Which is right about when Andersson will be ready to step up. 

[AlbertaBoy12]

Hey.   So, yes it's the "just like last year" part that is the concern.   I know points aren't everything.   I know we only need to look at someone like Monahan's junior stats to see how misleading year over year comparisons can be.

 

But....Monahan didn't spend another year in junior after the draft.  And if he had, he would have most likely torn the league apart.

 

 

Andersson has The most points in the OHL this year.  So yeah...that's good.  Basically the same as last year.

 

Goal-wise, he's been less impressive.   His goals have gone down.  And, they weren't overly impressive last year either.

 

His penalties have dropped, also not great.

 

 

Now I'll say something positive.   Even though you don't like stats

 

His plus/minus tells a story of huge improvement.   And I believe it.

 

 

Bottom line.... a 6' defenceman who can't score 10 goals as a 19 year old in junior, is not an immediate top 4 projection to me.

 

But I DO believe he's improving in many areas.  And is a great prospect.   And there's MUCH more to it than that.

 

 

I'm not ruling him out as a prospect.   But the "special" factor isn't there.  If he does become a top 4 defenceman....it'll be a project.

 

And imho, we will be needing something sooner than that.

I think you need to stop factoring goals into your projections. 51 assists and a plus 34 is nothing to scoff at in the OHL even if he is a 19 year old. I dont think it will be a project quite the opposite, all hes done has got better since last year. The only bad thing ive heard is that his fitness level might be lacking.

[Flyerfan52]

So....wait....

 

You're measuring a DEFENCEman on his ability to score goals. 

 

He has the most points in the league generating offence as a playmaker. I don't know what more you could possibly want than that. 

 

+/- has gone way up - so he's getting better defensively. 

 

PIM have gone down...how is that a bad thing? That means he's getting better and making fewer mistakes. 

 

I'm sorry but I don't see a single thing no to like about the kid. No he's not going to be here next year, but we aren't contending for the cup next year. 

 

16/17 - return to the playoffs

17/18 - playoff competitor

18/19 - cup competitor

 

Which is right about when Andersson will be ready to step up. 

On the bolded I agree judging a D by goals is useless. If he becomes a solid NHL defenseman we picked a good 1.

 

Points from a D are something I view as a bonus. My favorites are the 1s that come off breakout passes but I value goals prevented like I do points for. I think goalies do as well.