Flames & Losing For Higher Draft Order.

[darth_henning]

I believe there is some grey but I present it in the context as a clever slight of hand deployed by GMs.  It sounds like you use it in the context to confuse the crap out of yourself so that everything can be a tank but everything can also NOT be a tank simultaneously.  You have contradicting philosophies about tanking and apply the side that's convenient to your take.

 

For example,

No, you take two points saying different things about different situations and try and make it sound like confusion by setting up a false dichotomy.

 

 

How can these statements all be true at the same time?  They contradict each other.

 

Yes, they absolutely can.

Trading someone for a bad return (if it would have been possible to take a better one) is tanking.

Acknowledging that if you trade someone for a good return but that return is not ready yet (good prospects not quite NHL ready) is a completely different thing.

 

You first concluded that trading Reimer is tanking but then the Leafs called up Nylander and he's been pretty good in helping the Leafs win games down the stretch.  He's even played past his 10-game mark so he's burned a year off his contract.  

 

So, after claiming the Leafs are tanking, how can you turn right around and claim the opposite?  What are the Leafs doing overall then?  Tanking and not tanking, at the same time?

Because teams can do things that have different effects. Shocking.

 

If Hiller is losing, then playing him is tanking.  If Hiller is winning, then playing him is not tanking.  How can you have it both ways?

 

Because those are again two completely different situataions.

Play someone who's going to lose to get more losses = tanking

Play the same player if he's going to get wins to get more wins = attempting to be competitive.

Completely different situations.

 

 

 

Lots of moves can be for the betterment of the team in the long run but stagnates a team in the short run.  Is that progress or is that tanking?  Or would you argue that tanking IS progress?

What move? You can't make such a general hypothetical and expect that a single answer will cover every single possible permutation.

[phoenix66]

I believe there is some grey but I present it in the context as a clever slight of hand deployed by GMs.  It sounds like you use it in the context to confuse the crap out of yourself so that everything can be a tank but everything can also NOT be a tank simultaneously.  You have contradicting philosophies about tanking and apply the side that's convenient to your take.

 

For example,

 

 

How can these statements all be true at the same time?  They contradict each other.

 

And this,

 

 

You first concluded that trading Reimer is tanking but then the Leafs called up Nylander and he's been pretty good in helping the Leafs win games down the stretch.  He's even played past his 10-game mark so he's burned a year off his contract.  

 

So, after claiming the Leafs are tanking, how can you turn right around and claim the opposite?  What are the Leafs doing overall then?  Tanking and not tanking, at the same time?   

  

And this,

 

 

If Hiller is losing, then playing him is tanking.  If Hiller is winning, then playing him is not tanking.  How can you have it both ways?

 

And this,

 

 

Lots of moves can be for the betterment of the team in the long run but stagnates a team in the short run.  Is that progress or is that tanking?  Or would you argue that tanking IS progress?

 

 

I've answered this question earlier in my reply to cross who asked the same question.

 

To tank, trade Johnny and Monny but I do not agree with that action at this stage of the Flames rebuild.  The TDL has also come and gone.  You can't go to your coach and tell him to lose.  You can't go to your players and tell them to lose.  No matter what, you have to ice together a 23-man roster so the team is what the team is the rest of the way.  Most of what's left to be done is simply cheer for the losses.

 

actually in the leafs case, as much as I hate the leafs .. I must say that for the most part , they are not losing for the sake of losing. they are actually rebuilding and this is year one of the full tear down.. but at the same time to trade the guy you are most likely planning on re-signing , and keeping the guy thats UFA you likely have no intention of re-signing  was a backhanded move

 

so you would seriously consider trading our 2 best players right now??  i don't mean big picture, i mean we are here and now, you are BT and Bh at the same time.. you are correct , you can't ask players to lose .. what do you do with 7 games left ? (I think )

 

for example would you :

 

Give Hiller a run of games? ( and if he wins sit him for a couple)?

play Johnny with Bollig ?  on the 4th line?

reverse your d pairings based on minutes (eg - Gio and Brodie get 6 min / game) Engelland and Wotherspoon get the top assignments

 

Send Nak back to the farm, call up the worst guy there ?

 

Im just wondering , what would you have us do , right now, til the end of the year , to push us to that #1 pick if you could have your way ?

 

 

see there are ways to blatantly tank , and yet not ask the players to do it.. of course the coach has to be in on it . i just say there is a difference between blatantly causing the losses.. and doing what has to be done and accepting its going to happen for the short term  (or 10 years if you're an oilers fan )

[The_People1]

No, you take two points saying different things about different situations and try and make it sound like confusion by setting up a false dichotomy.

 

When I take two points saying different things on the same situation, it's called pointing out contradictions.

 

actually in the leafs case, as much as I hate the leafs .. I must say that for the most part , they are not losing for the sake of losing. they are actually rebuilding and this is year one of the full tear down.. but at the same time to trade the guy you are most likely planning on re-signing , and keeping the guy thats UFA you likely have no intention of re-signing  was a backhanded move

 

so you would seriously consider trading our 2 best players right now??  i don't mean big picture, i mean we are here and now, you are BT and Bh at the same time.. you are correct , you can't ask players to lose .. what do you do with 7 games left ? (I think )

 

for example would you :

 

Give Hiller a run of games? ( and if he wins sit him for a couple)?

play Johnny with Bollig ?  on the 4th line?

reverse your d pairings based on minutes (eg - Gio and Brodie get 6 min / game) Engelland and Wotherspoon get the top assignments

 

Send Nak back to the farm, call up the worst guy there ?

 

Im just wondering , what would you have us do , right now, til the end of the year , to push us to that #1 pick if you could have your way ?

 

 

see there are ways to blatantly tank , and yet not ask the players to do it.. of course the coach has to be in on it . i just say there is a difference between blatantly causing the losses.. and doing what has to be done and accepting its going to happen for the short term  (or 10 years if you're an oilers fan )

 

I stand by my theory of drafting top 2, drafting well in all other rounds, making the right trades, UFA/RFA signings, getting the right coach, etc.  So in other words, even if we trade Johnny and Monny, I believe we would eventually persevere under my theory and we could win a Cup with it. 

 

So many moving variables like who do we actually get back with Johnny and Monny?  Is it Kane and Toews?  Crosby and Malkin?  Seguin and Benn?  Subban and Price?  McDavid and Hall?  Auston Matthews+?  It depends.  It could work out well for us.  No one is untouchable.

 

On the point about the Leafs, our whole discussion started when Darth tried to say, basically that when a GM clears the cupboards for a rebuild and the team loses, it's not considered a tank.  Losing in that case would be considered organic rather than GMO'd. 

 

You said trading Reimer for a bad return was considered tanking.  Now you are back tracking and saying the Leafs, for the most part, are not tanking.  But okay, you are at the very least acknowledging some inorganic elements in their tear down and the result is, they are losing games because of it.

[The_People1]

"Tanking" isn't the right word, and is slanted in opinion.

 

Ya, "tanking" has so many negative connotations attached to it but you know what though, the word deserves it.  It is what it is, an immoral and unethical tactic to finish last place in the standings even though you can do better.

 

On paper, we are a playoff team.  We're not a Cup contender yet, but we are at least a playoff team.  To not make the playoffs is disappointing.  To escape the season with a top 3 pick when we don't deserve it would be grand theft hockey player.

[phoenix66]

I think most people agree with the General statement "We can accept losing short term, if its for the purpose of winning long term"  where it starts to get ugly is the tactics that get used to accomplish that .

Like i alluded to before, the Leafs are a great example right now. Did they need to tear the team down ?  Yes Was that going to generate a losing season?  you bet .   Are they embellishing it just a little bit ?  Absolutely   They would be a bottom 5 team just doing what needed to be done.  but since that was a forgone conclusion , they're pushing for the bottom . Moves such as the aforementioned Reimer move, they said it was to look at Sparks.. they could have done that anyway .Only way I will believe it wasnt a tank move is if hes not in TO next year. They have players on IR basically with hangnails.

Buffalo last year was a full out 82 game push for McDavid.

The Oilers veiled it with , "we're really gonna try this year ", coach change which in itself was iffy, then when they lock up McDavid, THEN they bring in a competent Coach, GM, etc..? When everybody knew that needed to be done a couple years before

[Flyerfan52]

actually in the leafs case, as much as I hate the leafs .. I must say that for the most part , they are not losing for the sake of losing. they are actually rebuilding and this is year one of the full tear down.. but at the same time to trade the guy you are most likely planning on re-signing , and keeping the guy thats UFA you likely have no intention of re-signing  was a backhanded move

 

so you would seriously consider trading our 2 best players right now??  i don't mean big picture, i mean we are here and now, you are BT and Bh at the same time.. you are correct , you can't ask players to lose .. what do you do with 7 games left ? (I think )

 

for example would you :

 

Give Hiller a run of games? ( and if he wins sit him for a couple)?

play Johnny with Bollig ?  on the 4th line?

reverse your d pairings based on minutes (eg - Gio and Brodie get 6 min / game) Engelland and Wotherspoon get the top assignments

 

Send Nak back to the farm, call up the worst guy there ?

 

Im just wondering , what would you have us do , right now, til the end of the year , to push us to that #1 pick if you could have your way ?

 

 

see there are ways to blatantly tank , and yet not ask the players to do it.. of course the coach has to be in on it . i just say there is a difference between blatantly causing the losses.. and doing what has to be done and accepting its going to happen for the short term  (or 10 years if you're an oilers fan )

Doubtful as coaches protect/work  for their contract just like players. GMs are given more leeway so can trade/send down players but the coach can only try to ice the best team possible from what the GM gives him.

[jjgallow]

Ya, "tanking" has so many negative connotations attached to it but you know what though, the word deserves it.  It is what it is, an immoral and unethical tactic to finish last place in the standings even though you can do better.

 

On paper, we are a playoff team.  We're not a Cup contender yet, but we are at least a playoff team.  To not make the playoffs is disappointing.  To escape the season with a top 3 pick when we don't deserve it would be grand theft hockey player.

 

are we a playoff team on paper?

 

Here's why I wonder:

 

Last year, on paper, we were expected to finish nearly last place.  We were actually a favourite for Connor McDavid.

 

Then all of a sudden, 

• Jonas Hiller has a career year.  Better than he's had since his prime.  Ramo not far behind.
• Jiri Hudler has a career year, and is one of the greatest threats in the NHL.
• Giordano emerges as one of the top defencemen in the NHL
• Other older vets, like Kriss Russell, also have career years.

 

And all of a sudden, the rebuild was "over".

 

 

Here's the thing:   Most of the biggest contributions were made by veterans that were Never even part of the rebuild, and Never expected by Anyone including the flames to play as well as they did.

 

The youth made the biggest headlines.  But the bulk of the difference last year...the Overwhelming bulk, came from Overachieving veterans.

 

It wasn't the first time a group of veterans were given an opportunity to take on a bigger role, and banded together as a team to find success.   We've seen it with expansion teams many times.  With the Jets most recently.   Edmonton does it periodically in their frequent rebuild cycles.

 

But at the end of the day, what made the difference between the team on paper (last place), and the team on the ice (made the playoffs), was honestly rejuvenated veterans banding together to all have career years at the same time.

 

Are we, truly, better this year on paper than we were last year?

 

I don't see it:

 

Gio's come back down to earth.  Call it health, call it decline, it's all the same...he's normallized.

 

Hudler normalized.   We did the smart thing there, but we sold low instead of selling high (compared to last year).   He was our single greatest offensive threat last year, and one of the top offensive threats in the league.  Now, not there.

 

Other veterans are declining (expected), or getting in fights with refs (unexptected).

 

Bennett/Monahan following a normal, slow development curve again (nothing wrong with it, but hey, they're kids).

 

Goaltending, imho, is Normalized this year.   I had no idea why they ever signed Hiller.  He proved me wrong.  For a season.  but has now returned to his previous form, and declined further from there.

 

 

At the end of the day....what do we have in terms of significant improvement?

 

Gaudreau.      Maybe Brodie (imho he improved offensively and regressed defensively this year).

 

Is that enough to compensate for all the return to baseline for our vets, and yearly decline?  

 

Is that enough to even account....for...just Hudler?  Not minding everyone else?

 

 

 

 

Are we ...Actually better on on paper this year than last?

 

 

IMHO, and I am a fan....but...  we are Still overachieving a bit, if anything.  We are similar, maybe a little worse, than that team on paper last year that was pegged for last place.

 

And Good on the vets for their performance last year.    

 

But....yeah....that probably cost us McDavid.   On paper, McDavid was ours.  Legitimately.  I'm not talking about tanking.    And the vets that made that temporary difference, are fading.

 

Sorry....that was long.  and unpopular.  and a little opinionated at the end.  But time for bed! lol

[MAC331]

are we a playoff team on paper?

 

Here's why I wonder:

 

Last year, on paper, we were expected to finish nearly last place.  We were actually a favourite for Connor McDavid.

 

Then all of a sudden, 

• Jonas Hiller has a career year.  Better than he's had since his prime.  Ramo not far behind.
• Jiri Hudler has a career year, and is one of the greatest threats in the NHL.
• Giordano emerges as one of the top defencemen in the NHL
• Other older vets, like Kriss Russell, also have career years.

 

And all of a sudden, the rebuild was "over".

 

 

Here's the thing:   Most of the biggest contributions were made by veterans that were Never even part of the rebuild, and Never expected by Anyone including the flames to play as well as they did.

 

The youth made the biggest headlines.  But the bulk of the difference last year...the Overwhelming bulk, came from Overachieving veterans.

 

It wasn't the first time a group of veterans were given an opportunity to take on a bigger role, and banded together as a team to find success.   We've seen it with expansion teams many times.  With the Jets most recently.   Edmonton does it periodically in their frequent rebuild cycles.

 

But at the end of the day, what made the difference between the team on paper (last place), and the team on the ice (made the playoffs), was honestly rejuvenated veterans banding together to all have career years at the same time.

 

Are we, truly, better this year on paper than we were last year?

 

I don't see it:

 

Gio's come back down to earth.  Call it health, call it decline, it's all the same...he's normallized.

 

Hudler normalized.   We did the smart thing there, but we sold low instead of selling high (compared to last year).   He was our single greatest offensive threat last year, and one of the top offensive threats in the league.  Now, not there.

 

Other veterans are declining (expected), or getting in fights with refs (unexptected).

 

Bennett/Monahan following a normal, slow development curve again (nothing wrong with it, but hey, they're kids).

 

Goaltending, imho, is Normalized this year.   I had no idea why they ever signed Hiller.  He proved me wrong.  For a season.  but has now returned to his previous form, and declined further from there.

 

 

At the end of the day....what do we have in terms of significant improvement?

 

Gaudreau.      Maybe Brodie (imho he improved offensively and regressed defensively this year).

 

Is that enough to compensate for all the return to baseline for our vets, and yearly decline?  

 

Is that enough to even account....for...just Hudler?  Not minding everyone else?

 

 

 

 

Are we ...Actually better on on paper this year than last?

 

 

IMHO, and I am a fan....but...  we are Still overachieving a bit, if anything.  We are similar, maybe a little worse, than that team on paper last year that was pegged for last place.

 

And Good on the vets for their performance last year.    

 

But....yeah....that probably cost us McDavid.   On paper, McDavid was ours.  Legitimately.  I'm not talking about tanking.    And the vets that made that temporary difference, are fading.

 

Sorry....that was long.  and unpopular.  and a little opinionated at the end.  But time for bed! lol

If you combine the last two years together it is evident there is talent on this team. In 2014/15 we did receive exceptional goaltending and a handful of better than average performances by some vets. In 2015/16 we did not get these same bonus performances, although I take exception to your comment on Giordano, slow start but still an outstanding season.

 

Progress has been made IMO and weaknesses identified in order to make changes and get better for 2016/17. How much better we get will once again be defined by the goaltending effort we receive in 2016/17 because no matter what remains after the slicing and dicing we likely have only a modest increase in defense and offensive output. We need some better size and skill upfront IMO.

[AlbertaBoy12]

are we a playoff team on paper?

 

Here's why I wonder:

 

Last year, on paper, we were expected to finish nearly last place.  We were actually a favourite for Connor McDavid.

 

Then all of a sudden, 

• Jonas Hiller has a career year.  Better than he's had since his prime.  Ramo not far behind.
• Jiri Hudler has a career year, and is one of the greatest threats in the NHL.
• Giordano emerges as one of the top defencemen in the NHL
• Other older vets, like Kriss Russell, also have career years.

 

And all of a sudden, the rebuild was "over".

 

 

Here's the thing:   Most of the biggest contributions were made by veterans that were Never even part of the rebuild, and Never expected by Anyone including the flames to play as well as they did.

 

The youth made the biggest headlines.  But the bulk of the difference last year...the Overwhelming bulk, came from Overachieving veterans.

 

It wasn't the first time a group of veterans were given an opportunity to take on a bigger role, and banded together as a team to find success.   We've seen it with expansion teams many times.  With the Jets most recently.   Edmonton does it periodically in their frequent rebuild cycles.

 

But at the end of the day, what made the difference between the team on paper (last place), and the team on the ice (made the playoffs), was honestly rejuvenated veterans banding together to all have career years at the same time.

 

Are we, truly, better this year on paper than we were last year?

 

I don't see it:

 

Gio's come back down to earth.  Call it health, call it decline, it's all the same...he's normallized.

 

Hudler normalized.   We did the smart thing there, but we sold low instead of selling high (compared to last year).   He was our single greatest offensive threat last year, and one of the top offensive threats in the league.  Now, not there.

 

Other veterans are declining (expected), or getting in fights with refs (unexptected).

 

Bennett/Monahan following a normal, slow development curve again (nothing wrong with it, but hey, they're kids).

 

Goaltending, imho, is Normalized this year.   I had no idea why they ever signed Hiller.  He proved me wrong.  For a season.  but has now returned to his previous form, and declined further from there.

 

 

At the end of the day....what do we have in terms of significant improvement?

 

Gaudreau.      Maybe Brodie (imho he improved offensively and regressed defensively this year).

 

Is that enough to compensate for all the return to baseline for our vets, and yearly decline?  

 

Is that enough to even account....for...just Hudler?  Not minding everyone else?

 

 

 

 

Are we ...Actually better on on paper this year than last?

 

 

IMHO, and I am a fan....but...  we are Still overachieving a bit, if anything.  We are similar, maybe a little worse, than that team on paper last year that was pegged for last place.

 

And Good on the vets for their performance last year.    

 

But....yeah....that probably cost us McDavid.   On paper, McDavid was ours.  Legitimately.  I'm not talking about tanking.    And the vets that made that temporary difference, are fading.

 

Sorry....that was long.  and unpopular.  and a little opinionated at the end.  But time for bed! lol

BT said after the season last year that the rebuild was still on and no one was to get ahead of themselves on that, we were still looking to the future. Where are you getting that the rebuild was over?

 

Gio is not regressing he had a bad start to the season but since then has put up more points per game then the previous two seasons.

 

Im curious where you think the problems lie with this team? Obviously goaltending was below average. But im not sure why you have this hate on for gio and brodie. I realize you dont acutally hate them, but you are the only poster on these forums who seems to think they are anything but elite. 

 

Cross made a post a while back showing that even if we had league average goaltending on this team, we would have probably been alot closer to the playoffs, Just doing some simply math we are looking at 40 goals less on the season with league average goals against average.

[The_People1]

I think most people agree with the General statement "We can accept losing short term, if its for the purpose of winning long term"  where it starts to get ugly is the tactics that get used to accomplish that .

 

I thought so too.  Such an easy concept.  Plant the seeds now and reap the harvest later.

 

Read the comments from others however, and you will find that very few agree with us.  They think losing creates more losing and winning creates more winning.  And therefore, in order to win in the future, you must keep winning in the present.  Losing at any time conflicts with the idea of winning.  Whether it's short term, long term, or whatever term, losing is simply not acceptable, ever.

 

Like i alluded to before, the Leafs are a great example right now. Did they need to tear the team down ?  Yes Was that going to generate a losing season?  you bet .   Are they embellishing it just a little bit ?  Absolutely   They would be a bottom 5 team just doing what needed to be done.  but since that was a forgone conclusion , they're pushing for the bottom . Moves such as the aforementioned Reimer move, they said it was to look at Sparks.. they could have done that anyway .Only way I will believe it wasnt a tank move is if hes not in TO next year. They have players on IR basically with hangnails.

 

See, now it sounds like you agree the Leafs are mostly tanking.  At some point, a GM has to take responsibility for negligence in terms of not icing a competitive team to win right now.

 

Basically, our disagreement is this,

 

I believe "not trying to win right now" = "trying to lose right now"

You believe "not trying to win right now" /= "trying to lose right now"

 

Why I am wrong to assume "not trying to win right now" = "trying to lose right now"?  This is professional sports where anything short of trying to win right now is trying to lose right now.  It's the same thing.

[jjgallow]

If you combine the last two years together it is evident there is talent on this team. In 2014/15 we did receive exceptional goaltending and a handful of better than average performances by some vets. In 2015/16 we did not get these same bonus performances, although I take exception to your comment on Giordano, slow start but still an outstanding season.

 

Progress has been made IMO and weaknesses identified in order to make changes and get better for 2016/17. How much better we get will once again be defined by the goaltending effort we receive in 2016/17 because no matter what remains after the slicing and dicing we likely have only a modest increase in defense and offensive output. We need some better size and skill upfront IMO.

 

I agree with a lot of this.   Giordano was coming off of an injury, that is true.    Also true, another goal and he's have 20 for the first time.   Other components were not as strong, though.  I do not believe he was as consistent, or defensively responsible.   And the most noticeable is that he is no longer the physical player that he made a name for himself for.   I'm not trying to say Giordano was a "problem".  I'm saying that he's not necessarily better on paper this year than last.  And, more importantly, won 't be as good on paper next year either.

 

Goaltending was was our biggest issue this season, but we do not know if it will define us next year, no.   If it doesn't get better, then you're right.  But if goaltending gets better (and it's unlikely to get worse), it will only expose other areas.    

 

This year, the second area of concern appears to be up front.    But once players like Bennett and Monahan cross a certain threshold, that too will change.   We're also very likely to pick up Another elite forward in the upcoming draft.     And we have forward talent in the pipeline too.   I agree with you on RW.    

 

But.....  what appears as an issue this year does not necessarily ring true the same way next year.   Think of it as direction of change.  Goaltending is likely to improve.   Our forward lines are likely to improve.

 

Our defence is likely to regress.     

 

It's less, specifically, about 16/17.   These are moving targets.    It's about our direction.  What's getting better.  What's getting worse.

 

In this stage of a rebuild, nothing should be getting worse.   If it is, that's a high area of concern.

[jjgallow]

BT said after the season last year that the rebuild was still on and no one was to get ahead of themselves on that, we were still looking to the future. Where are you getting that the rebuild was over?

 

Gio is not regressing he had a bad start to the season but since then has put up more points per game then the previous two seasons.

 

Im curious where you think the problems lie with this team? Obviously goaltending was below average. But im not sure why you have this hate on for gio and brodie. I realize you dont acutally hate them, but you are the only poster on these forums who seems to think they are anything but elite. 

 

Cross made a post a while back showing that even if we had league average goaltending on this team, we would have probably been alot closer to the playoffs, Just doing some simply math we are looking at 40 goals less on the season with league average goals against average.

 

On BT and the rebuild:   I'm not saying that BT has ended the rebuild.   I'm still optimistic for the Flames, although BT has some big hurdles.     On this forum and at the coaching level, is more where that comment came from.   A growing number of people on here, especially a couple months ago, felt that the rebuild was over.

 

BH, also, coached in a "Win now" mode at the start of the season.  And ok, yes, that is his job.  Although I'll point out that he stopped doing that after the trade deadline.  Playing Backstrom/Hiller against teams we could have beat, and Ortio against teams we're unlikely to beat anyway.

 

While I understand that it was BH's job to coach Win Now, I think there was a big miscommunication between him and BT, who's responsible for the rebuild.   None of us know exactly what happened, and I would suspect it has a Lot more to do with BH, but bringing in 3 goalies was a Huge mistake, and also  a clear "Win Now" move (even though it ended up doing the opposite).   It was the kind of move a team would make After a rebuild.   And it required a GM to materialize.   So, BT, has to take some responsibility there too.  Even if it wasn't his intent.  He may have given BH too long of a leash after his award.

 

On cross's stats, for the most part, yeah, I agree with them.  We might have even Snuck Into the playoffs with league average goaltending.

 

But would that really satisfy you, to see us barely make the playoffs, get snuffed out in the first round, and then receive some mediocre draft picks to rinse and repeat for next year?

 

Everyone sees it.  Yeah.  Better goaltending, we get closer to average.  

 

Then what?  Is average really good enough?

 

I'll say it now:  We need top 5 goaltending at the end of this rebuild.  Top 5 in the NHL.  Or, imho, the rebuild failed.

 

I think we can do it but it's going to be hard.    Why we're even talking about average goaltending, I don't know.  Although does is wreck our draft picks and prolong the rebuild to infinity.

 

You know the hardest thing about getting top 5 goaltending?   It's not  actually the goalie.    You need to have top 5 defence, to give the goalie a Shot at being top 5.   Look at the best defensive teams in the league, or the most successful goalies....it always holds true.

 

We had Slightly above average defence in this league right now.  And I am being Very kind there.   A couple guys who put up great numbers, yes.   But defensively, we are Barely above average.  At best.   And, overall, it is in decline.   Our best defense has come from aging vets.   We do Not have enough of the right kind of prospects to fill the gap, let alone get us top a top 5 level.

 

That will be the biggest challenge of this entire rebuild.  The goaltending issue can be resolved overnight.  Or, slowly through development.  Take your pick.  And yes, it will make us an average team.

 

We'll not see a Stanley cup until we have top 5 D in the league, though.

 

That will be the greatest challenge of this rebuild.

 

 

So....to answer your question...I don't think of it in terms of current problems lying with the team.  I think of it in terms of the dynamics of the rebuild and our pipeline.   And I see challenges at the following three positions:   D, G, RW.   In that order.     I consider them challenges because we can't just fix them with bringing in support players.    These challenges require elite talent.    

 

I place RW last, because it's the easiest to fill and the shortest development time.  We may even have it filled after this draft.

 

I recognize that G is our current greatest challenge, but we Do have Ortio and Gillies coming in now.   Ortio is Starting to look like he's 2 years away from being a starter.   And, Gillies, imho, may be a level above Ortio (we don't know yet).   But, we have some things in place there.   I also like Mason McDonald and Nick Schneider.     Ortio, alone, is at a level where I believe we WILL have better goaltending next year.   He is playing Very near the level we need, and getting better all the time.   Gillies won't be far behind.    

 

I place D first, because we don't have the pipeline.   We just don't.   Rasmus Anderson and Kylington are Not having the kinds of seasons that give them that kind of projection.   I mean the kind of projection that puts us top 5 in the league for D.   So far, they are very much looking like the 2nd round picks that they are.   Best case scenario, they are projects.   And a project, for a defenceman, can be 10 years.   Well outside of our window.    So I place this as our greatest challenge, and I see the solution as acquiring and Aaron Ekblad or Hanifin, or Seth Jones type player.    Just one.   Just one player of this calibre, and then I think we have the right pieces.   But that's not easy.

 

P.S....(in case this wasn't long enough)....There Is a block of 5 top defencemen in this draft.   Unfortunately, even with these, I'm not sure that I see any who will develop fast enough....or even..are elite enough, to take us where we need to go.    We may have to settle for this, but I honestly think there's going to be better forwards available first, and I believe we'll select one of them.   So, likely a moot point.   It's going to be tough.  Doable, but tough.

[The_People1]

are we a playoff team on paper?

 

Here's why I wonder:

 

Last year, on paper, we were expected to finish nearly last place.  We were actually a favourite for Connor McDavid.

 

...

 

Are we ...Actually better on on paper this year than last?

 

Last season we came in with Monahan and Giordano.  That was pretty much it.  We were McDavid bound.

 

But players play, improve, emerge, etc.

 

This season, we came in with;

• Jack Adams Trophy coaching (Hartley)
• Lady Byng winner (Hudler)
• 8th overall scoring leader (Hudler)
• "near" Norris Dman (Giordano)
• budding superstars (Gaudreau and Monahan)
• Bluechip prospect (Sam Bennett)
• good off-season acquisitions (Hamilton and Frolik)

Not saying we're Cup contenders but we came into the season with playoff pedigree.

[jjgallow]

Last season we came in with Monahan and Giordano.  That was pretty much it.  We were McDavid bound.

 

But players play, improve, emerge, etc.

 

This season, we came in with;

• Jack Adams Trophy coaching (Hartley)
• Lady Byng winner (Hudler)
• 8th overall scoring leader (Hudler)
• "near" Norris Dman (Giordano)
• budding superstars (Gaudreau and Monahan)
• Bluechip prospect (Sam Bennett)
• good off-season acquisitions (Hamilton and Frolik)

Not saying we're Cup contenders but we came into the season with playoff pedigree.

 

imho, the first red flag should have been the lady bing award....

 

Most everything on that list is indicative of career years from veterans.   Does that actually change a team on paper?   I know people got excited on here, but was there really any reason to assume that Hudler was going to keep that up?   Was there reason to assume that Giordano, who hasn't played 82 games since 2011 and has had to abandon most of his physical game, was going to give us a solid year overall at 32?

 

Should Frolik have been on that list?

 

Finally you're left with a few kids.   Monahan, Gaudreau, and Bennett.

 

All forwards (the last thing you look to).    

 

One only needs to look up North, to see what happens when that's your strongest point on paper.  I'm a Huge fan of all three.  But they are forwards, and they are kids.   Bennett is so young, he shouldn't have even been a consideration at all.     

 

I think we got caught up in the craze and forgot what these players were.

 

Finally....goaltending....another year went by without developing anyone, and our hopes hinged on Hiller having another career year.  That, to me, was just never going to happen at 34.   I've not seen an example where it did, except Maybe Tim Thomas.   And Ramo wasn't in the top 30 in the league.   

 

Honestly, I've always thought the best goalie we had on paper was Ortio.  And it looks like he'll be finishing the season with the best save percentage of the three if he keeps doing what he's doing.   Agree with me or not, on paper, that was a massive red flag.   As it was last year.   But with Hiller yet a Year Older (so worse).

 

All I see, on that paper, are red flags.  Bigger goalie issues than last year.   A coach receiving an award for installing overachievement in vets.   Something known to be unsustainable.    Most of the offense coming from unsustainable and aging players.

 

Lady Bing...

 

I don't see playoff pedigree there.

 

I think there is a legitimate arguement to be had, whether it's better or worse.  But I don't see playoff pedigree in either year.

 

p.s...I agree with Hamilton.   One real bright spot.  But again, a kid....it pales in comparison to Giordano and Wideman  and Smid getting a year older.  Even add in TJ Brodie's unexpected improvement.    It still doesn't make up for what was lost with Giordano, Wideman, Smid.  Our top D is old.  It just is.  And getting older.   And it's going to be an even bigger issue next year.  Hamilton is a start, but he's not enough to reverse that trend.  

[phoenix66]

I thought so too.  Such an easy concept.  Plant the seeds now and reap the harvest later.

 

Read the comments from others however, and you will find that very few agree with us.  They think losing creates more losing and winning creates more winning.  And therefore, in order to win in the future, you must keep winning in the present.  Losing at any time conflicts with the idea of winning.  Whether it's short term, long term, or whatever term, losing is simply not acceptable, ever.

 

 

See, now it sounds like you agree the Leafs are mostly tanking.  At some point, a GM has to take responsibility for negligence in terms of not icing a competitive team to win right now.

 

Basically, our disagreement is this,

 

I believe "not trying to win right now" = "trying to lose right now"

You believe "not trying to win right now" /= "trying to lose right now"

 

Why I am wrong to assume "not trying to win right now" = "trying to lose right now"?  This is professional sports where anything short of trying to win right now is trying to lose right now.  It's the same thing.

It comes down to the attitude, you should always be trying to win. you can see the difference between Calgary and Edmonton . We get behind, we keep battling .. they get behind the players fold up their  tents and mail it in . Playing the kids, brings contagious energy, but if you are surrounded by forces that breed losing , sooner or later you say "why bother".. then teams like Buffalo and Edmonton wonder why they get all this talent and cant turn the switch back on .. youve ruined the culture.

Players need to see that they are supported by coaching and personell moves.. if all they see is the powers trying to make them lose, they will follow suit.

Edmonton SHOULD be a powerhouse with all the talent they have, but the attitude is to lose.

[robrob1974]

Last season we came in with Monahan and Giordano. That was pretty much it. We were McDavid bound.

But players play, improve, emerge, etc.

This season, we came in with;

• Jack Adams Trophy coaching (Hartley)
• Lady Byng winner (Hudler)
• 8th overall scoring leader (Hudler)
• "near" Norris Dman (Giordano)
• budding superstars (Gaudreau and Monahan)
• Bluechip prospect (Sam Bennett)
• good off-season acquisitions (Hamilton and Frolik)

Not saying we're Cup contenders but we came into the season with playoff pedigree.

Because we improved two positions didn't make us "playoff pedigree."

Yes, you missed rookie of the year finalist in Gaudreau, but the team last year hardly looked like a playoff team all year. Sure they stepped up at the end of the season. When you look at how many third period comebacks last season, all of the poor starts, they shouldn't have been in the playoffs.

Yes they earned it, but we knew that playing that way wasn't going to cut it again. Teams took us seriously in the first half this year.

This team did look better on paper to start, but I thought right from the beginning that it was false to think that we were going to improve. There were too many holes.

[Flyerfan52]

imho, the first red flag should have been the lady bing award....

 

Most everything on that list is indicative of career years from veterans.   Does that actually change a team on paper?   I know people got excited on here, but was there really any reason to assume that Hudler was going to keep that up?   Was there reason to assume that Giordano, who hasn't played 82 games since 2011 and has had to abandon most of his physical game, was going to give us a solid year overall at 32?

 

Should Frolik have been on that list?

 

Finally you're left with a few kids.   Monahan, Gaudreau, and Bennett.

 

All forwards (the last thing you look to).    

 

One only needs to look up North, to see what happens when that's your strongest point on paper.  I'm a Huge fan of all three.  But they are forwards, and they are kids.   Bennett is so young, he shouldn't have even been a consideration at all.     

 

I think we got caught up in the craze and forgot what these players were.

 

Finally....goaltending....another year went by without developing anyone, and our hopes hinged on Hiller having another career year.  That, to me, was just never going to happen at 34.   I've not seen an example where it did, except Maybe Tim Thomas.   And Ramo wasn't in the top 30 in the league.   

 

Honestly, I've always thought the best goalie we had on paper was Ortio.  And it looks like he'll be finishing the season with the best save percentage of the three if he keeps doing what he's doing.   Agree with me or not, on paper, that was a massive red flag.   As it was last year.   But with Hiller yet a Year Older (so worse).

 

All I see, on that paper, are red flags.  Bigger goalie issues than last year.   A coach receiving an award for installing overachievement in vets.   Something known to be unsustainable.    Most of the offense coming from unsustainable and aging players.

 

Lady Bing...

 

I don't see playoff pedigree there.

 

I think there is a legitimate arguement to be had, whether it's better or worse.  But I don't see playoff pedigree in either year.

 

p.s...I agree with Hamilton.   One real bright spot.  But again, a kid....it pales in comparison to Giordano and Wideman  and Smid getting a year older.  Even add in TJ Brodie's unexpected improvement.    It still doesn't make up for what was lost with Giordano, Wideman, Smid.  Our top D is old.  It just is.  And getting older.   And it's going to be an even bigger issue next year.  Hamilton is a start, but he's not enough to reverse that trend.  

1st highlited: Gaudreau & Monahan also had good years.

2nd: Frolik was a heck of a good addition.

3rd: Just because they weren't in the NHL doesn't mean the goalies weren't developing. Junior leagues & the AHL are called development leagues for a reason.

[DirtyDeeds]

..........

 

While I understand that it was BH's job to coach Win Now, I think there was a big miscommunication between him and BT, who's responsible for the rebuild.   None of us know exactly what happened, and I would suspect it has a Lot more to do with BH, but bringing in 3 goalies was a Huge mistake, and also  a clear "Win Now" move (even though it ended up doing the opposite).   It was the kind of move a team would make After a rebuild.   And it required a GM to materialize.   So, BT, has to take some responsibility there too.  Even if it wasn't his intent.  He may have given BH too long of a leash after his award.

 

On cross's stats, for the most part, yeah, I agree with them.  We might have even Snuck Into the playoffs with league average goaltending.

 

But would that really satisfy you, to see us barely make the playoffs, get snuffed out in the first round, and then receive some mediocre draft picks to rinse and repeat for next year?

 

Everyone sees it.  Yeah.  Better goaltending, we get closer to average.  

 

Then what?  Is average really good enough?

 

I'll say it now:  We need top 5 goaltending at the end of this rebuild.  Top 5 in the NHL.  Or, imho, the rebuild failed.

 

.......

How can anyone say that bringing in 3 goalies is a win now move and after the rebuild is done?  Clearly it was an attempt to address the avg goaltending(overperforming if you prefer) we got from the previous season.

 

BT wanted to create competition just like other positions in hopes it would bring out the best in our goaltenders. He also gave Ortio that 1/2 2way contract and 1/2 1 way which pretty much threw the wrench into his season.

 

 

p.s...I agree with Hamilton.   One real bright spot.  But again, a kid....it pales in comparison to Giordano and Wideman  and Smid getting a year older.  Even add in TJ Brodie's unexpected improvement.    It still doesn't make up for what was lost with Giordano, Wideman, Smid.  Our top D is old.  It just is.  And getting older.   And it's going to be an even bigger issue next year.  Hamilton is a start, but he's not enough to reverse that trend.

 

How do you figure Gio Brodi Hamilton is old D? Smid and Wideman our top D?  Wideman has not been played top d all season except for rare instances and Smid??? 

[MAC331]

I agree with a lot of this.   Giordano was coming off of an injury, that is true.    Also true, another goal and he's have 20 for the first time.   Other components were not as strong, though.  I do not believe he was as consistent, or defensively responsible.   And the most noticeable is that he is no longer the physical player that he made a name for himself for.   I'm not trying to say Giordano was a "problem".  I'm saying that he's not necessarily better on paper this year than last.  And, more importantly, won 't be as good on paper next year either.

 

Goaltending was was our biggest issue this season, but we do not know if it will define us next year, no.   If it doesn't get better, then you're right.  But if goaltending gets better (and it's unlikely to get worse), it will only expose other areas.    

 

This year, the second area of concern appears to be up front.    But once players like Bennett and Monahan cross a certain threshold, that too will change.   We're also very likely to pick up Another elite forward in the upcoming draft.     And we have forward talent in the pipeline too.   I agree with you on RW.    

 

But.....  what appears as an issue this year does not necessarily ring true the same way next year.   Think of it as direction of change.  Goaltending is likely to improve.   Our forward lines are likely to improve.

 

Our defence is likely to regress.     

 

It's less, specifically, about 16/17.   These are moving targets.    It's about our direction.  What's getting better.  What's getting worse.

 

In this stage of a rebuild, nothing should be getting worse.   If it is, that's a high area of concern.

On ice performance is all that counts year to year not "on paper rosters". Giordano is fine and I have no concerns with his play. I also do not see where our defense regresses. By all accounts with every year of core maturity we should be getting better however you still need the right complimentary pieces on each line.

As an example (sorry to use CHI again) but many of their players do real well playing beside the likes of a mature Toews. We need to get Gaudreau, Monahan and Bennett to this stage.

 

I think we can take a huge step forward with this draft and a few trades to get the key pieces and depth we want for all our forward positions.

 

The real KEY is getting the right Goaltending duo.

[jjgallow]

If on ice performance is all that matters, then we are worse this year. Period. Offensively. Defensively. In net.

Because last year's core was still considerably veteran laden. Including net.  And they overachieved.

 

We can think of filling immediate holes, or we can think of ensuring our rebuild has a strong pipeline to make this team elite defensively, offensively, and in net.

 

I call filling holes, the bandaid approach.    Others will call it continual improvement (without noticing that we never actually get anywhere).

 

I call focusing on prospect development, a rebuild.   Others will call it "tanking".  If our focus is on anything other than our immediate need.   

 

Yes, our biggest immediate need is net.   No, it is not a path to the cup.   There is Always another hole to fill.  Because filling holes is costly and inefficient.   The only time hole filing makes sense, is when it's the Last hole.  The difference between the Cup and 2nd place.   That's not the stage we're at.   If we blow our cap to bring in an average net minder, all it will do is expose our defense.  And we'll have nothing left to fill that hole with.

Nobody knows what next year holds. But to assume that goaltending is the key....is correct. If your goal is to cheer for an average team for the next decade.

[The_People1]

http://flames.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=875862&navid=DL|CGY|home

 

Here are the projected lines for tonight's game.

 

Shinkaruk - Monahan - Grant

Poirier - Backlund - Frolik

Ferland - Bennett - Colborne

Bollig - Stajan - Bouma

 

Giordano - Engellend

Brodie - Hamilton

Kulak - Nakladal

 

Ortio

 

So apparently, Gaudreau is out with a nagging injury.  I'm guessing a strained hangnail.  Should get an MRI soon and might get shut down for the remainder of the season... something smells fishy but hey, the Coyotes are not starting the red hot Mike Smith at home... we have to match that some how.

[kehatch]

If on ice performance is all that matters, then we are worse this year. Period. Offensively. Defensively. In net.

Because last year's core was still considerably veteran laden. Including net.

Nobody knows what next year holds. But to assume that goaltending is the key....is correct. If your goal is to be am average team for the next decade.

 

[sarcasm] Indeed.  Because getting a goalie obviously precludes further development from our young core as well as the GM making improvements in other areas.  Clearly the solution to win a cup is to trade Giordano and Gaudreau for 20 year old goalie prospects who can battle it out in camp with the surviving two kicking off the real rebuild. [/sarcasm]

 

(The rest is not directed at you).  People need to look left, look right, and then repeat 20 times at a rapid pace.  You don't go from the basement to the winners podium on a season or two.  But in terms of progress the Flames are strong down the middle, strong top 3 on defense, have a not-so-future superstar winger, and some good complimentary pieces across the roster.  They also have a GM that has proven he get go out and get talent.  I love the Flames progress so far and am sick of the "but they didn't build it my way" doom and gloom threads.

 

As for building a team by winning / losing.  Whatever.  It is a debate that most of us are sick off but one that will never ever go away.  But the fact of the matter is:

1. Like it or not, the Flames are NOT getting a number one pick outside of winning the lottery.  Not this season.  Not next season.  Not anytime soon. So give it a rest.
2. I refuse to be disappointed by the fact that our young core is playing well enough that we aren't the worst team in the league.  The fact that they are trying so hard is a good thing.  The fact that Monahan, Gaudreau, Brodie, Giordano, Hamilton, Backlund, Frolik, and Ortio have been on fire is a good thing.  Stop telling me I should be disappointed by that.

Of course I want a higher pick.  Of course I want better lottery odds.  You can type all you want describing to me why a higher pick is better then a lower pick but I am not an idiot.  I know that already.  But having strong performances from a young core is also better then having poor performances from a young core.  Besides, the Flames have done everything they can do to focus on development over wins for the final stretch.  Might as well enjoy what is happening rather then moan about it. 

[DirtyDeeds]

http://flames.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=875862&navid=DL|CGY|home

 

Here are the projected lines for tonight's game.

 

Shinkaruk - Monahan - Grant

Poirier - Backlund - Frolik

Ferland - Bennett - Colborne

Bollig - Stajan - Bouma

 

Giordano - Engellend

Brodie - Hamilton

Kulak - Nakladal

 

Ortio

 

So apparently, Gaudreau is out with a nagging injury.  I'm guessing a strained hangnail.  Should get an MRI soon and might get shut down for the remainder of the season... something smells fishy but hey, the Coyotes are not starting the red hot Mike Smith at home... we have to match that some how.

Or the overhand slash he received....

 

What interests me about the callups is that both Shikaruk and Poirier are in the lineup at LW. I think back to the draft where there was the big debate between these two players. Maybe tonight we get a small glimpse.

[robrob1974]

Or the overhand slash he received....

What interests me about the callups is that both Shikaruk and Poirier are in the lineup at LW. I think back to the draft where there was the big debate between these two players. Maybe tonight we get a small glimpse.

Didn't that one end up in his rib cage? Keith angled his stick so it chopped into Gaudreau's rib.

[jjgallow]

 

So apparently, Gaudreau is out with a nagging injury.  I'm guessing a strained hangnail.  Should get an MRI soon and might get shut down for the remainder of the season... something smells fishy but hey, the Coyotes are not starting the red hot Mike Smith at home... we have to match that some how.

 

I was at last night's game, and he was slashed pretty hard on the hand.  Had to leave the ice and didn't play the same after.  Maybe nothing.  just sayin.