Flames & Losing For Higher Draft Order.

[Wreckening]

This whole conversation has gone from stupid to absurd.  Far be it for me to tell someone how to cheer for their favorite team but to cheer for losses just so you have a better chance at the draft is beyond crazy.  That's creating a losing atmosphere in my books and simply is unacceptable.

[The_People1]

We get it. But your logic if cheering for effort but losses doesn't make sense to anyone. "LET'S TRYYY REALLY HARD AND LOSE BY A GO-AL" doesn't really have the makings of a great Dome chant.

It's semantics. You are cheering for your team to lose. Worse, your trying to convince Flames fans to do the same. And your doing it on the back of a season where there is proof is wasn't necessary.

Sport is simple. Cheer for your team and enjoy when they play well. Otherwise what's the point?

 

You don't get it kehatch.

 

You said that a winning culture doesn't come from winning.  You are correct.  Therefore, it logically follows that a losing culture doesn't come from losing.  You cannot reject the second part without rejecting your original comment.  You cannot reject your original comment because it's absolutely true.

This whole conversation has gone from stupid to absurd.  Far be it for me to tell someone how to cheer for their favorite team but to cheer for losses just so you have a better chance at the draft is beyond crazy.  That's creating a losing atmosphere in my books and simply is unacceptable.

 

No one is telling anyone how to cheer.

 

Feel free to cheer how you want to cheer.  If you want to understand why we cheer for loses, then we'll explain it.  Some confuse this with us jamming it down your throats but we're simply presenting the other side of the story.

 

Those who are cheering for loses for completely fair reasons are getting attacked no more or less than the other way around.

[The_People1]

It's semantics. You are cheering for your team to lose. Worse, your trying to convince Flames fans to do the same. And your doing it on the back of a season where there is proof is wasn't necessary.

 

I'd like to add a comment to this because there's a perception that we didn't need to lose in order to draft the #1 ranked forward in this draft year.  While it's true we didn't need to finish dead last, we also needed to lose enough to finish 4th last.  Just weeks before the season ended, the Flames were sitting in 5th last with momentum to move up to even 6th or 7th.  Had we won out the season, then we would've been looking at Nylander or Ehlers which are both great prospects in their own right but not considered the #1 ranked.

 

Losing was necessary.

[robrob1974]

So when we reached 4th overall drafting position did you stop cheering for losses ?

and if so how did you know that Bennett would drop to 4th pick for us?

 

Personally I had given up hope of getting Bennett and he was my second choice after Ekblad who I had also given up hope on being able to draft.

 

Moral of this years story is for me I didn't stop cheering for my team after we were out of the playoffs and we still got my choice of forwards too.

 

Do I have to question my fandom with the identical end results?

 

No, You have every right to cheer your team on the way you cheer. 

 

I don't think we're trying to argue how we're cheering more so just defending our reasons when posters say that's the wrong way to go. 

 

We (the few who think this way) just think that hitting rock bottom is mandatory before we start to ascend to contender. What we want is for us draft high so that we have high-end talent and odds are better drafting closer to 1st overall. 

 

Basically, we're saying that's our desired rock bottom. Yours is closer to 20th in the final regular season standings. We know that teams find gems at that spot, but how often is that? We all quote where it hasn't worked and where it has. It's all hindsight so basically doesn't work.

 

We drafted Gaudreau in the 4th round and suddenly our drafting has improved. Well, he's obviously not the only good player we've drafted, but our draft history has been poor. 

 

For me, I had more faith in drafting closer to 1st overall because the likelihood of the player to turn out and be higher end was better there.

I am tired of having a poor team. Iginla/Kipper wasn't enough for me. Flames fans would probably say cheer for another team if that's the case. I just for once want the team to have a few more stars, develop players properly and be excited like we were years ago. It has been since about 1995 that there has been real excitement. 

 

2004 was an aberration, we weren't even suppose to make the playoffs. The teams after that year were playoff teams but could never get the elusive higher end player to play with Iginla. 

 

It has been refreshing to finally be excited again over the last two seasons. Even if they don't pan out, Monahan, Gaudreau, Baertschi and now Bennett is exciting. I am excited to see what they can do when the grow into their prime. 

[s4xon]

I can't wait for the day when I can lock and delete this thread.....

[The_People1]

No, You have every right to cheer your team on the way you cheer. 

 

I don't think we're trying to argue how we're cheering more so just defending our reasons when posters say that's the wrong way to go. 

 

We (the few who think this way) just think that hitting rock bottom is mandatory before we start to ascend to contender. What we want is for us draft high so that we have high-end talent and odds are better drafting closer to 1st overall. 

 

Basically, we're saying that's our desired rock bottom. Yours is closer to 20th in the final regular season standings. We know that teams find gems at that spot, but how often is that? We all quote where it hasn't worked and where it has. It's all hindsight so basically doesn't work.

 

We drafted Gaudreau in the 4th round and suddenly our drafting has improved. Well, he's obviously not the only good player we've drafted, but our draft history has been poor. 

 

For me, I had more faith in drafting closer to 1st overall because the likelihood of the player to turn out and be higher end was better there.

I am tired of having a poor team. Iginla/Kipper wasn't enough for me. Flames fans would probably say cheer for another team if that's the case. I just for once want the team to have a few more stars, develop players properly and be excited like we were years ago. It has been since about 1995 that there has been real excitement. 

 

2004 was an aberration, we weren't even suppose to make the playoffs. The teams after that year were playoff teams but could never get the elusive higher end player to play with Iginla. 

 

It has been refreshing to finally be excited again over the last two seasons. Even if they don't pan out, Monahan, Gaudreau, Baertschi and now Bennett is exciting. I am excited to see what they can do when the grow into their prime. 

 

Well said. 

 

At the end of the day, both builds are viable.  We all favour one build over the other and will obviously defend strongly for it. 

 

Did this season prove that losing down the stretch after the playoffs were out of reach was unnecessary?  I don't think so because one additional win would've put the Flames in 5th and more wins would've put the Flames into the mid-teens area.  Again, after the playoffs are out of reach, then to me, points in the standings don't matter anymore.

 

 

I can't wait for the day when I can lock and delete this thread.....

 

Soon enough.  Once the NHL changes the draft lottery system, then this topic is done for good.

[cross16]

I don't agree at all that you don't need to win to create a winning culture and I actually think it's silly to even say that. Winning is a habit and IMO all habits are learned so if you don't learn to win you simply cannot have a winning culture. Case in point, the flames were in, and if I recall correctly lost a record amount of one goal games last year. How can anyone possible suggest there is a winning culture here when they were the 4th worst team in the league and lost at many one goal games?

What they do have is a culture of work ethic accountability and that is he starting point to creating a winning culture but the two are not mutually dependent on each other. If you don't eventually build from a culture of accountability and work ethic and turn them into winos then you are going to wind up with a losing culture pretty darn quick. I will always live by the words of Vince Lombardi - winning is a habit, unfortunately so is losing. Just remember a couple seasons ago the oilers were saying the exact same thing we are saying right now.

I'm not even taking about cheering for a team in done with that debate and I think fans can do what they want anyway. But I think when it comes to culture I don't agre that winning is not learned or that you don't need to win to create a winning culture.

[Flyerfan52]

I hope those that advocate ditching for a higher pick don't have that attitude in real life.

 

"I've got this plan where I'll be the worst employee this year but improve so much next year that I'll get a plaque for Most Improved & a big raise".

Yeah right!

[stubblejumper1]

I hope those that advocate ditching for a higher pick don't have that attitude in real life.

 

"I've got this plan where I'll be the worst employee this year but improve so much next year that I'll get a plaque for Most Improved & a big raise".

Yeah right!

I have no horse in this argument/discussion, but this is not a good comparison.  I have never seen someone succeed in the coporate world by intentionally being terrible one year and then trying to improve the next year.  However, tanking does sometimes work in the NHL - Pittsburgh twice and Chicago off the top of my head. 

[tmac70]

Professional athletes don't play to lose, period. Tanking can only happen from coaching or management directive.

Winning is a process as well as a mind set, and so is losing. It isn' t very hard to lose, but it takes effort and commitment to

Win. If winning is guaranteed by hitting rock bottom, than everyone would take part. This club's losing last year was not at fault of effort as it was lack of talent, big difference.

We played hard to finish Where we finished, and as a fan i am damn proud of that. Talent doesn't guarantee crap unless you have the attitude that goes along with. Take tiger woods for example did he change his swing to purposely play worse! Change/ rebuild call it what you want those words mean a drop in production for a short period. Tanking is for loser's and people of desperation that

Can not find the abilities to fix problems with intellect and hard work.

[cfreining]

Still don't think we should have this discussion as fans.

 

But talking about a winning culture, that is only established by the believe that you can win every game, even if you fall behind. 

Example: Chicago , Detroit - they work hard and believe they can win until the final second (well obvious not if they are down by 5 and less then a minute left). Remember the last Games against Chicago? How much have they been behind.... I think once it was about 5:1 and we lost 6:5 or many other examples were we lost in the last couple of minutes or OT.

 

A winning culture is the result of winning! There is nothing the coach can do, you work hard and you are rewarded for your hard work. Players that work hard but do not get the reward get frustrated and over a longer period will lose faith that they can win or that hard work has any benefit.

 

The Calgary Flames had an amazing advantage this season. The flood! All Calgaryans workd very hard to clean up the mess, lots of people lost way too much, but every single person worked to get Calgary back to normal as soon as possible, same with the Dome. It is easy to buy the players (that helped out in the region to clean up!) into a culture of hard work when something like that happened, it motivates, because players are proud of the City for the achievments. And they did just that! Worked hard every night, nearly no shift of, great to watch. The feedback was positive, the league acknowledged the hard work of the team. No one liked to play against the Flames. And most important the Calgary fans showed that they are proud fans of the team!

 

So this is the positive feedback to get every one back on track, to motivate every player even more to play hard, work hard, try to win every night. But the next season the positive feedback will not be enough! To keep the player in the culture, the team has to win more games! It may be not enough for the playoffs, but they will be very close. That is very important to keep the culture and then add the skill from the drafted players.

 

Now, what can happen, if they try to tank for a better pick? They will lose the faith in hard work. At the end we will have to replace the complete team after the next season, because you will not be able to motivate them for the hard working culture needed to win. And no one should adapt to losing! That is a fairy tale that you need to get used to lose! The team needs to get used to win!

[Wreckening]

Still don't think we should have this discussion as fans.

 

But talking about a winning culture, that is only established by the believe that you can win every game, even if you fall behind. 

Example: Chicago , Detroit - they work hard and believe they can win until the final second (well obvious not if they are down by 5 and less then a minute left). Remember the last Games against Chicago? How much have they been behind.... I think once it was about 5:1 and we lost 6:5 or many other examples were we lost in the last couple of minutes or OT.

 

A winning culture is the result of winning! There is nothing the coach can do, you work hard and you are rewarded for your hard work. Players that work hard but do not get the reward get frustrated and over a longer period will lose faith that they can win or that hard work has any benefit.

 

The Calgary Flames had an amazing advantage this season. The flood! All Calgaryans workd very hard to clean up the mess, lots of people lost way too much, but every single person worked to get Calgary back to normal as soon as possible, same with the Dome. It is easy to buy the players (that helped out in the region to clean up!) into a culture of hard work when something like that happened, it motivates, because players are proud of the City for the achievments. And they did just that! Worked hard every night, nearly no shift of, great to watch. The feedback was positive, the league acknowledged the hard work of the team. No one liked to play against the Flames. And most important the Calgary fans showed that they are proud fans of the team!

 

So this is the positive feedback to get every one back on track, to motivate every player even more to play hard, work hard, try to win every night. But the next season the positive feedback will not be enough! To keep the player in the culture, the team has to win more games! It may be not enough for the playoffs, but they will be very close. That is very important to keep the culture and then add the skill from the drafted players.

 

Now, what can happen, if they try to tank for a better pick? They will lose the faith in hard work. At the end we will have to replace the complete team after the next season, because you will not be able to motivate them for the hard working culture needed to win. And no one should adapt to losing! That is a fairy tale that you need to get used to lose! The team needs to get used to win!

Terrific post!

[robrob1974]

I am not asking them to tank. We're in a position where, especially on paper, we're the now the 2nd worst in the league. That's right now as we speak. Management has gone this route and did a great job of putting a product on the ice that is competitive. It will be the same next year. I was proud of how they played, happy when they won. 

 

I think patience is the way to go and add youth and we're going to improve year by year. 

[Wreckening]

I can't wait for the day when I can lock and delete this thread.....

And ahhhh....just what would it take to have this happen? And how long would the ban be?   

[cfreining]

I think patience is the way to go and add youth and we're going to improve year by year. 

 

Patience with prospects, yes. Take the time to develop them properly. Patience with the players on the flames roster? No! Anyone who is making the team needs to be comitted to win!

[phoenix66]

I am not asking them to tank. We're in a position where, especially on paper, we're the now the 2nd worst in the league. That's right now as we speak.

Thanks to the Spezza trade today we just got bumped to 3rd:) see? Not even playing yet and were out of the McDavid/Eichel sweepstakes already

[zima]

I think adding Hiller to the mix kills any chance of a losing attitude this to me shows the owners want a winning team with some young blood I think hiller will win us games so those 1 goal games we lost last yr could now turn into wins. Sorry to those who wished for a tank season don't think it is going to happen I see a Stanley Cup this YR. LOL ok maybe not but hey we can dream

[robrob1974]

Patience with prospects, yes. Take the time to develop them properly. Patience with the players on the flames roster? No! Anyone who is making the team needs to be comitted to win!

 

And they were!

They looked awesome out there this last year. The team was more exciting than at has been in about 6 or 7 years before that. The coach did a wonderful job of getting everyone to buy in and work their checking from behind off to try win. They're looking to get better, but not very much better. 

[The_People1]

I don't agree at all that you don't need to win to create a winning culture and I actually think it's silly to even say that. Winning is a habit and IMO all habits are learned so if you don't learn to win you simply cannot have a winning culture. Case in point, the flames were in, and if I recall correctly lost a record amount of one goal games last year. How can anyone possible suggest there is a winning culture here when they were the 4th worst team in the league and lost at many one goal games?

What they do have is a culture of work ethic accountability and that is he starting point to creating a winning culture but the two are not mutually dependent on each other. If you don't eventually build from a culture of accountability and work ethic and turn them into winos then you are going to wind up with a losing culture pretty darn quick. I will always live by the words of Vince Lombardi - winning is a habit, unfortunately so is losing. Just remember a couple seasons ago the oilers were saying the exact same thing we are saying right now.

I'm not even taking about cheering for a team in done with that debate and I think fans can do what they want anyway. But I think when it comes to culture I don't agre that winning is not learned or that you don't need to win to create a winning culture.

 

I know what you are trying to say but winning has to be measured in relative terms to the skill/expectations of the team.  It's not fair to point at a team that severly lacks talent like the Flames and say if they lose, then they have a losing culture because they simple can't win often even if they tried.  There's not enough skill to overcome what the opponents can bring to the table. 

 

 Wins or not, the important thing was the Flames had work ethic accountability and developed winning habits. 

[Zirakzigil]

I dont think as of now it will be the Flames losing to lose, but losing because most of the top end teams are in the West right now. Wins will be hard to come by but it is important to play hard every night and have things like solid goaltending so your prospects dont get shelled out each game and get used to losing, like the Oilers. 

[s4xon]

I dont think as of now it will be the Flames losing to lose, but losing because most of the top end teams are in the West right now. Wins will be hard to come by but it is important to play hard every night and have things like solid goaltending so your prospects dont get shelled out each game and get used to losing, like the Oilers. 

 

Signing a goaltender for the next two years bought Treliving some breathing room in case of injury.

 

It definitely won't be the Flames losing to lose, but Lucid and Peeps will be happy to know that the with the current players going into next season, the roster is looking very McDavid worthy.  JJ will be ecstatic!

 

Any kids that come up and play will learn to play their hearts out, maybe steal a few wins, but they'll see firsthand what losses look like. The heart being the difference between the Oilers and the Flames.

[travel_dude]

Signing a goaltender for the next two years bought Treliving some breathing room in case of injury.

 

It definitely won't be the Flames losing to lose, but Lucid and Peeps will be happy to know that the with the current players going into next season, the roster is looking very McDavid worthy.  JJ will be ecstatic!

 

Any kids that come up and play will learn to play their hearts out, maybe steal a few wins, but they'll see firsthand what losses look like. The heart being the difference between the Oilers and the Flames.

We have a lot of unknowns that can make the difference between 28-30th and 20-25th.  Not that I relish the thought of finishing 10th worst.  We had a relatively bad team last year, goalie turnovers (yumm?), too many key injuries, and rookies trying to stick with the team, and we still were trending towards 24-26th leading up to the last few games.

 

Some unknowns:

- if the Guadfather makes the team, will he be the real deal in the NHL?

- does Sven make and have an impact on the team?

- has our off-season moves made us better or worse?

- does goaltending truly become a winning tradition, where Hartley has to play guys because they keep winning?

- do we replace Butler with a defenseman that doesn't cost us games early in the season, before he became a better player?

- does Hartley stop with the crazy lineup decisions?

[s4xon]

We have a lot of unknowns that can make the difference between 28-30th and 20-25th.  Not that I relish the thought of finishing 10th worst.  We had a relatively bad team last year, goalie turnovers (yumm?), too many key injuries, and rookies trying to stick with the team, and we still were trending towards 24-26th leading up to the last few games.

 

Some unknowns:

- if the Guadfather makes the team, will he be the real deal in the NHL?

- does Sven make and have an impact on the team?

- has our off-season moves made us better or worse?

- does goaltending truly become a winning tradition, where Hartley has to play guys because they keep winning?

- do we replace Butler with a defenseman that doesn't cost us games early in the season, before he became a better player?

- does Hartley stop with the crazy lineup decisions?

 

Those are all good questions.  However, I believe the Flames roster got better from last season.  The reason for my deduction for the Flames icing a McDavid lineup is if we take a look at the rest of the west, they had more significant moves and additions and key subtractions than Calgary did.

 

Not a tanking perspective for the players, but more for the management side of things.  The mandate remains the same 'to win' but, with the addition of Hiller, and a few nhl vets, it was just enough to keep them 'competitive' enough to hind behind the rebuild label.  Just my personal opinion and observation.

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The only possible outlier I see is Edmonton.  For some reason, anything they do, they can't seem to pull out of the bottom 10, let a lone the bottom 5.  I firmly believe employing a coach ln Eakins will keep them there, unless they have some sort of fluke season.

[kehatch]

The Flames lost Stempniak, Galiardi, and Cammalleri and got Raymond in return. We lost Butler and got Engelland.

There is a good chance that our kids should be better. But we may also see a regression with players like Hudler and Giordano. So that probably even out.

Glencross may be healthy, but injuries will likey play a role again and we don't have the depth to compensate.

The only area of upgrade I see is in net. Goaltending was a big issue for the Flames early last season. It should be better this season. But I don't think that is enough to rectify the big hit to our scoring.

It's only early July. Changes will still happen. But I expect the Flames to be worse this season. Plus many of the bottom 5 teams got better.

[travel_dude]

Those are all good questions.  However, I believe the Flames roster got better from last season.  The reason for my deduction for the Flames icing a McDavid lineup is if we take a look at the rest of the west, they had more significant moves and additions and key subtractions than Calgary did.

 

Not a tanking perspective for the players, but more for the management side of things.  The mandate remains the same 'to win' but, with the addition of Hiller, and a few nhl vets, it was just enough to keep them 'competitive' enough to hind behind the rebuild label.  Just my personal opinion and observation.

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The only possible outlier I see is Edmonton.  For some reason, anything they do, they can't seem to pull out of the bottom 10, let a lone the bottom 5.  I firmly believe employing a coach ln Eakins will keep them there, unless they have some sort of fluke season.

Most of the West got better.  Some stayed the about the same.  VAN is one I think got worse, but that is bringing in Miller and losing Kessler. 

 

The East is another story.  So many teams got robbed by FA.  Others overpaid to get those guys.  My feeling is that the East loses a lot of games to the West.