Flames & Losing For Higher Draft Order.

[The_People1]

That's irrelevant Peeps.  Essentially you are wanting the team to suck, no matter how nice you put it.  Leave all the 'prizes' out of the picture with the drafting and the prospects etc.  When it comes down to brass tacks, you want the Flames to suck.  I take offense to that as a Flames fan to another Flames fan.  It's illogical.

 

The Flames played their bag off this year and still ended up with the 4th pick. That's what we call a win-win scenario in a rebuild.  Draisaitl would be nice, but if the intention is to be 100% guaranteed a bottom 2 position, it's useless thinking.  The Oilers did it 3 years in a row and their 'stars' are only glistening in their eyes.  Around the league, they have no luster.  What if the Flames picked 1st and went for Ritchie?  You can't control it, so it's useless blowing the proverbial horn about it.   So there goes your 'trading 5 wins for a prospect' argument.

 

Draisaitl is the player I want, but no where is there a guarantee that he's going to be a game changer a few years down the road.  The same with Ekblad, Bennett, Reinhart, or even Dal Colle, and especially the rest of the draft. 

 

Drafting low hasn't been an annoyance...maybe to you. But to most the fanbase, trying to win at the cost of losing year after year, without recognizing a retool or a rebuild is. Leaving guys like Iggy, and Kipper on the roster without getting a sizeable return for them in their prime is poor asset management.  It's just stupid business, and has nothing to do with drafting low.

 

All this and not one mention of trading down.  Oh lookie, I guess there is a separation between the arguments.

 

Here's one.  I'll flip it back to you...you want the Flames to tank to get the best pick possible and have been evangelizing as such over the last year, but then instead of now taking the best player, you are all for trading down.  Which is it?

 

Hardworking team & healthy locker room attitude > top picks any day of the week, month, year, entire NHL history.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let me know how Ovie has been working out for the Caps.

 

Having discussed this so much, do you agree it all comes down to this: Draft Advantage vs Team Morale?

 

Or do you see it a little different?

[Carty]

Man everytime this comes up, "but look at the oilers guys, top picks do nothing" 

Chicago is doing something, so are other teams that had top picks together within a 2-3 year span, stop bringing up the red headed step-child of the NHL.

 

Were in the FIRST year of a rebuild how can you NOT EXPECT top picks, I for one am with Peep's and saying were in for another bottom 5 finish before were out of this rebuild. This season I watched with the expectations of this team being a bottom 5 team, just like the entire NHL did, and guess what here we are. Meeting expectations.

 

There is also a huge difference between having lower expectations for your team due to the current roster, and cheering or hoping for your team to lose...

[Carty]

Seconded

 

Thirded...  

[s4xon]

Having discussed this so much, do you agree it all comes down to this: Draft Advantage vs Team Morale?

 

Or do you see it a little different?

 

It's miles apart.

 

Draft advantage is nice, but only when the team has played their bag off and the cards have fallen where they've fallen.  At that point, it's not the team's fault, but management's as they've failed to assemble a team that can win.  Once management is able to assemble a roster that can compete, through means of trade, FA's and the draft, the team morale has been established throughout the process and you come out with an actual team, not a bunch of 'me first's' like Ovi, Hall, Yakupov, etc.

 

The draft position has nothing to do with the actual current playing roster. Using the roster as a tool for management to tip the draft scales is bad for business.

[TrippinVdUb]

Could you imagine the back lash if a media outlet caught wind of a market who's fans were out right cheering for there team to loose in order to gain higher drafting position and ran it?

Would we the flames faithful want to be known for such a thing? What would the players think? Would they want out? Could we ever lure another big name here again?

I see the full value in finishing bottom 5 during a rebuild, but only if we come by it honestly. There is a level of integrity that we expect in sports, that line is already so fine as it is, with so many people in the game that are willing to cross it to win. We the fans are charged with holding our teams/players/managers accountable, if we were to publicly accept and back anything but a honest winning attitude then we may as well all just start watching boxing and WWE...

I for one will never cheer for my beloved flames to tank, but will always find the silver lining, especially when they bring there lunch pail work ethic forward.

[The_People1]

I see the full value in finishing bottom 5 during a rebuild, but only if we come by it honestly.

 

Thanks Vdub, that's fair.

 

If you see the value in finishing bottom 5 but do not cheer for the Flames to go for it, then that's totally respectable.  On the other hand, If you outright do not see value in finishing bottom 5, then that sparks pages and pages of explanation from those who see value.  No one wants to necro this thread as much as no one wants to see this thread again.

 

The value is: We can trade down to draft in the 7th or 8th position and gain additional assets as opposed to having to draft in the 7th or 8th position based on season results.

 

The debate is: Is a few spots in the draft ranking worth the negatives associated with losing.

 

Right? At the end of the day, there is strong merit with both views.

[robrob1974]

People. But I don't want the flames to trade down just to add another piece to the cupboard. Yes we get a pick at 8 or wherever that team we trade with is drafting, then maybe a 2nd rounder. You chance the Jankowski scenario all over again. We see 3 or 4 prospects shine whomever were picked before our selection at 8 and think, "wow, we sure botched that one again, look how great that player is!"

Maybe # 8 will be good, but we have a better chance of our 4th overall to be better than good.

This is where we differ... I want a lot of good players in the system but not at the cost of losing our #4.

We all agree the Flames were the hardest team to play against. This team earned the 4th overall. Even though the management says it's a failure, they earned about one or two spots more in the standings by the way they played. Experts thought we'd be last...

Hell, I would trade our first and our second for one of the top two picks. I wonder if it could be that easy as the players are so closely ranked?

Personally, I think one of the Sams will be available, and no way we can say no to either of them.

[Carty]

I for one, am glad the Flames are not on this list...   and never will be...  

 

[s4xon]

I for one, am glad the Flames are not on this list...   and never will be...  

 

 

Where's Florida and Pittsburgh?

[Carty]

Where's Florida and Pittsburgh?

 

 

[s4xon]

 

 

 

[Carty]

 

[TrippinVdUb]

Thanks Vdub, that's fair.

If you see the value in finishing bottom 5 but do not cheer for the Flames to go for it, then that's totally respectable. On the other hand, If you outright do not see value in finishing bottom 5, then that sparks pages and pages of explanation from those who see value. No one wants to necro this thread as much as no one wants to see this thread again.

The value is: We can trade down to draft in the 7th or 8th position and gain additional assets as opposed to having to draft in the 7th or 8th position based on season results.

The debate is: Is a few spots in the draft ranking worth the negatives associated with losing.

Right? At the end of the day, there is strong merit with both views.

Of course I see the value in it, but that doesn't mean I want to ice a team that doesn't compete on a nightly basis, those 5 extra wins you keep talking about aren't with out value too. Every victory these kids earn builds there confidence and keeps them moving in the right direction.

Winning is everything in professional sports, and its the only thing we should ever be willing to settle for.

[Flyerfan52]

Of course I see the value in it, but that doesn't mean I want to ice a team that doesn't compete on a nightly basis, those 5 extra wins you keep talking about aren't with out value too. Every victory these kids earn builds there confidence and keeps them moving in the right direction.

Winning is everything in professional sports, and its the only thing we should ever be willing to settle for.

Remember boxing became a joke when corrupt fighters would throw a fight for a payoff. It took a long time to escape the stigma & be taken seriously again.

 

In hockey teams become a joke when fans league-wide see them continually drafting high while seemingly make little attempt to improve.

Some were just badly run like the Thrashers where ownership didn't care because the team was a part they didn't want in the deal for the Hawks & arena or Bill Wirth's Blackhawks.

The Panthers @ least tried to improve by trading for/signing vets like Campbell & Jovanoski a few years ago & the recent trade for Luongo.

The Preds are usually @ least on the bubble so get respect.

A few good teams had a bad year, drafted high but were right back in the mix (Habs, Flyers, Ducks) so didn't let 1 year get them to wave the white flag & go long rebuild from the bottom.

 

Every fan wants a winning team. Normally that means having a good record where you @ least win more often then lose.

For some reason others = winning to drafting high which means being as close as possible to the worst team in the league. Great concept for worst to be > @ least good.

Seeing some wins as good for the team in the long run (as long as those don't happen too often) while being happy with losses because they lead to being earlier to the draft podium just doesn't work for me. I'd rather be rehashing a playoff loss then have umpteen threads on who to draft.

[The_People1]

People. But I don't want the flames to trade down just to add another piece to the cupboard. Yes we get a pick at 8 or wherever that team we trade with is drafting, then maybe a 2nd rounder. You chance the Jankowski scenario all over again. We see 3 or 4 prospects shine whomever were picked before our selection at 8 and think, "wow, we sure botched that one again, look how great that player is!"

Maybe # 8 will be good, but we have a better chance of our 4th overall to be better than good.

This is where we differ... I want a lot of good players in the system but not at the cost of losing our #4.

We all agree the Flames were the hardest team to play against. This team earned the 4th overall. Even though the management says it's a failure, they earned about one or two spots more in the standings by the way they played. Experts thought we'd be last...

Hell, I would trade our first and our second for one of the top two picks. I wonder if it could be that easy as the players are so closely ranked?

Personally, I think one of the Sams will be available, and no way we can say no to either of them.

 

I'm not suggesting we trade that far down but it also depends on what pieces we get in return.  Everything has a price.

 

Of course I see the value in it, but that doesn't mean I want to ice a team that doesn't compete on a nightly basis, those 5 extra wins you keep talking about aren't with out value too. Every victory these kids earn builds there confidence and keeps them moving in the right direction.

Winning is everything in professional sports, and its the only thing we should ever be willing to settle for.

 

We "should" man.  I agree.  It's wrong fans have something to cheer for when the playoffs are out of reach.

 

That said, points in the standings are for making the playoffs.  Once the playoffs are out of reach, points have little use.  Wins builds confidence, i get that.  I would also argue that losing builds hunger for wins so there's an argument to be made for that too.  Losing is painful and most of life's lessons come from the result of loss and pain.  We want kids to be hungry for wins.  Feel the pain of embarassment.  Push themselves to the limits in the off season to change next season's results.  I hope you get that too.

[robrob1974]

Remember boxing became a joke when corrupt fighters would throw a fight for a payoff. It took a long time to escape the stigma & be taken seriously again.

 

In hockey teams become a joke when fans league-wide see them continually drafting high while seemingly make little attempt to improve.

Some were just badly run like the Thrashers where ownership didn't care because the team was a part they didn't want in the deal for the Hawks & arena or Bill Wirth's Blackhawks.

The Panthers @ least tried to improve by trading for/signing vets like Campbell & Jovanoski a few years ago & the recent trade for Luongo.

The Preds are usually @ least on the bubble so get respect.

A few good teams had a bad year, drafted high but were right back in the mix (Habs, Flyers, Ducks) so didn't let 1 year get them to wave the white flag & go long rebuild from the bottom.

 

Every fan wants a winning team. Normally that means having a good record where you @ least win more often then lose.

For some reason others = winning to drafting high which means being as close as possible to the worst team in the league. Great concept for worst to be > @ least good.

Seeing some wins as good for the team in the long run (as long as those don't happen too often) while being happy with losses because they lead to being earlier to the draft podium just doesn't work for me. I'd rather be rehashing a playoff loss then have umpteen threads on who to draft.

I get what you're saying, I had your point of view most of my life. It wasn't until we couldn't add the pieces to get over the hump when Iginla and Kipper were in their prime that I realize we need some elite superstar players to lead the bunch. So bare boning our team is what I thought was the best thing for us. We were banging our heads against the wall for too long waiting for the next guy who could play with Iginla.

Years before that, we were always just good enough to draft anywhere from 6th-10th overall, never drafting high end. We all say, look who we drafted recently, and then there are some on here who say, we over value our prospects but have this argument of winning at all costs while none of our prospects are proven yet, AHL success is a lot different than NHL.

Our prospects have proven they can play a handful of games. They are doing good in their prospective leagues. I get that too. I want someone high end, a franchise player and the last player we drafted to be that would have been Nieuwendyk or Fleury. The thing is, we weren't able to build around Fleury either.

So that's the dilemma, I feel like we have a better chance at drafting someone high end by drafting higher in the draft. We get there because we are bare bones in talent and I am happy when they win and happy when players have success, and I am happy when they play as a team. I find it weird they couldn't do that when the old core was here... It's pressure... I think we are seeing wins because we have no pressure on us, and we saw the majority of other team's backup goalies....

[The_People1]

I'd rather be rehashing a playoff loss then have umpteen threads on who to draft.

 

We ALL do FF.  Do you rather talk about "almost" making the playoffs too?  I don't and I don't think anyone does.

 

So, when the playoffs are all but out of reach and we can only talk about the draft, then do you rather talk about the 9th overall or the 4th overall pick?  I mean, do we crack open a cold one next summer, lean back on our lawn chairs and go, "man, how about those 7-points down the stretch?  Clutch eh?"  No. We missed the playoffs.

[robrob1974]

Brodie is coming into his own and is a #4 D in most teams.

Backlund is a 3rd liner on most teams. Maybe still improving.

Monahan probably wouldn't have made any other team in the NHL but still has upside and right now is a sheltered 3rd liner who saw a gradual increase in duties and is probably still projected to be a 2nd liner or an alternative for 1st line C.

Bouma is a good 4th liner and PK. Every team needs that.

Of the regulars, that's all we had whom we drafted. It is a good start.

[Carty]

We ALL do FF.  Do you rather talk about "almost" making the playoffs too?  I don't and I don't think anyone does.

 

Not trying to speak for FF52 here, just agreeing with the bolded...   Of course not...   No one does...

 

So, when the playoffs are all but out of reach and we can only talk about the draft, then do you rather talk about the 9th overall or the 4th overall pick?  I mean, do we crack open a cold one next summer, lean back on our lawn chairs and go, "man, how about those 7-points down the stretch?  Clutch eh?"  No. We missed the playoffs.

 

I suppose some people would rather crack open a cold one next summer, lean back on their lawn chairs and go, "Man, how about that tank job down the stretch?   Who cares about pride, honour, dignity or developing what could be a long term culture of having a losing is acceptable and to be expected attitude."   not us, because we are still collecting all those years of top picks."

 

I hope for their sake that it's a really big cold one...   They're going to need it...  

 

[travel_dude]

Brodie is coming into his own and is a #4 D in most teams.

Backlund is a 3rd liner on most teams. Maybe still improving.

Monahan probably wouldn't have made any other team in the NHL but still has upside and right now is a sheltered 3rd liner who saw a gradual increase in duties and is probably still projected to be a 2nd liner or an alternative for 1st line C.

Bouma is a good 4th liner and PK. Every team needs that.

Of the regulars, that's all we had whom we drafted. It is a good start.

I wonder what Monahan's numbers would have been playing in Nate MacKinnon's place on the AVS.  Easy to say there is that big a difference between him and Monahan, but skill playing on the same line allow you to play your game. 

 

If you look at Baclund, remember that he played against the best lines in the NHL.  He is not playing to be a #1C, but rather a second line, 2-way C.

[The_People1]

Not trying to speak for FF52 here, just agreeing with the bolded...   Of course not...   No one does...

 

Totals man.

 

I suppose some people would rather crack open a cold one next summer, lean back on their lawn chairs and go, "Man, how about that tank job down the stretch?   Who cares about pride, honour, dignity or developing what could be a long term culture of having a losing is acceptable and to be expected attitude."   not us, because we are still collecting all those years of top picks."

 

I hope for their sake that it's a really big cold one...   They're going to need it...  

 

 

If we played with pride, honour, dignity, and a never lose attitude, then does results matter?  22nd, 27th, or even 30th overall, who cares?  It's a team to be proud of.  Right?  I'm only cheering for results, not effort.  I still want to see effort.

[travel_dude]

Totals man.

 

 

If we played with pride, honour, dignity, and a never lose attitude, then does results matter?  22nd, 27th, or even 30th overall, who cares?  It's a team to be proud of.  Right?  I'm only cheering for results, not effort.  I still want to see effort.

I'm not sure how you play with dignity at the 30th spot?  Did the Oilers do it?  Did Buffalo do it or did they trade every asset they could get to lower their standings?  Even trading guys they traded for. 

 

This is the first time in the Flames' history that they have drafted below 6th.  As a team, do you think they were proud of that result?  Was the coach? 

 

I think what you are saying is that you cheer for lack of results, as long as there is effort. 

[Flyerfan52]

We ALL do FF.  Do you rather talk about "almost" making the playoffs too?  I don't and I don't think anyone does.

 

So, when the playoffs are all but out of reach and we can only talk about the draft, then do you rather talk about the 9th overall or the 4th overall pick?  I mean, do we crack open a cold one next summer, lean back on our lawn chairs and go, "man, how about those 7-points down the stretch?  Clutch eh?"  No. We missed the playoffs.

I'm much rather be saying "We won our game & would have been in the playoffs if team X hadn't beat team Y to edge us out" then "Dang! If we'd only lost a few more games we'd be 1st to the podium".

 

You can back off as your chances of making the playoffs lessen in hopes of having 1 of the early picks & draft the next 17-18 year old superstar I suppose. They are all that they will ever be so the kid taken later will never be as good as the 1/1 every year.

 

After all, bubble teams that only get their invite to the playoffs in the last week never win the SC.

Crap, if you can't catch the division leaders it's time to back off as the teams that finish on top of their division are the only worthies. They should just try to extend the # of play-off gates as the President's Trophy winner is going to be crowned SC winner as well.

 

Cheers! Enjoy dreaming of losses.

I'll try to think of plans to win.

[robrob1974]

I wonder what Monahan's numbers would have been playing in Nate MacKinnon's place on the AVS.  Easy to say there is that big a difference between him and Monahan, but skill playing on the same line allow you to play your game. 

 

If you look at Baclund, remember that he played against the best lines in the NHL.  He is not playing to be a #1C, but rather a second line, 2-way C.

I don't think we can compare MacKinnon to Monahan. They play a different game. MacKinnon is more skilled and uses speed. Monahan uses his smarts and is slow in comparison. While I agree, maybe Monahan's numbers could have been better with better teammates, The NHL also allowed him to see what the pace of the game would be, so he can work on his speed.

As for Backlund, that is what he is on the Flames because we don't have better options.

[The_People1]

I'm not sure how you play with dignity at the 30th spot?  Did the Oilers do it?  Did Buffalo do it or did they trade every asset they could get to lower their standings?  Even trading guys they traded for. 

 

This is the first time in the Flames' history that they have drafted below 6th.  As a team, do you think they were proud of that result?  Was the coach? 

 

I think what you are saying is that you cheer for lack of results, as long as there is effort. 

 

Maybe not the 30th but certainly the 27th right? 

Effort and results can be separate things.

 

I'm much rather be saying "We won our game & would have been in the playoffs if team X hadn't beat team Y to edge us out" then "Dang! If we'd only lost a few more games we'd be 1st to the podium".

 

You can back off as your chances of making the playoffs lessen in hopes of having 1 of the early picks & draft the next 17-18 year old superstar I suppose. They are all that they will ever be so the kid taken later will never be as good as the 1/1 every year.

 

After all, bubble teams that only get their invite to the playoffs in the last week never win the SC.

Crap, if you can't catch the division leaders it's time to back off as the teams that finish on top of their division are the only worthies. They should just try to extend the # of play-off gates as the President's Trophy winner is going to be crowned SC winner as well.

 

Cheers! Enjoy dreaming of losses.

I'll try to think of plans to win.

 

As long as you understand we all rather talk about a playoff loss than talk about almost making the playoffs, then that's all good.

 

Cheers!