Lockout 101

[baljflames13]

Honestly, I agree with everything on this website: http://www.firebettman.com/

[gsp393]

Based on the name Im gonna go ahead on not click the link and also go ahead and say I disagree with everything on the website. Bettmans a businessman and a damn good one. If losing a season every now and then is what it takes to improve the league as much as he has over his reign then Im all for it. Heres to hoping this lockout will be the last for a while as they can hopefully accurately predict what the league will look like in 7 years. You gotta realize the NHL is a business not a profit free organization for the enjoyment of the fans. If your honestly that upset then boycot the nhl, When it returns don't watch it because that is the only way they will care what you think. Your a $ to them and as long as you keep contributing to their $ your opinion will never really be that important.

[Carty]

If you think tickets in Alberta are expensive now, then if you back the players in this dispute get ready to pay even more...

I am not sure if it is a result of being brainwashed by Fehr, but what the players are failing to grasp is this...

If the business of the NHL is successful and continues to grow, hockey related revenue increases and then so does their pay... Even if their cut is reduced to 50% from 57% they can end up with more money in their pockets...

Their bottom line has increased substantially from when the last CBA was agreed to... They are getting paid more as time goes by...

Not enough teams are breaking even let alone showing any profit under the current CBA at 57% so there is no way that the league can continue to operate with teams ownership only getting 43% of revenue...

Players in both the NFL and NBA seem to accept that a more equal split is acceptable, so what makes the players in the NHL think they are any different... Both of those leagues are flourishing, and so are the bank accounts of the players...

As far as the players that are whining on social media and through the press looking for sympathy and support from the fans... I have only this to say...

Aaaaawwww... Poor muffin...

[Guest happycat]

GD it NHL Brass bring back Hockey Already!

[tincup1]

I really feel like the clock is ticking for both sides. I just had a buddy of mine tell me he's turning in his tickets after about 20 years. He's just fed up. I kind of feel the same way. This time it's about money and the frustating thing is there's more than enough money to go around. They charge big dollars and basically suck as much money as possible out of the fans...then cry for the tax payer to build them new arenas. I still love hockey but not sure about the NHL these days.

[Addicted]

I really feel like the clock is ticking for both sides. I just had a buddy of mine tell me he's turning in his tickets after about 20 years. He's just fed up. I kind of feel the same way. This time it's about money and the frustating thing is there's more than enough money to go around. They charge big dollars and basically suck as much money as possible out of the fans...then cry for the tax payer to build them new arenas. I still love hockey but not sure about the NHL these days.

This I totally aggree with. I love hockey but this whole scene it so sickening I really could care less if they ever play again. I surprises me how little I miss it, and how pissed I am at the whole joke. Go away for 10 years, I could care less.

[Louis23]

Based on the name Im gonna go ahead on not click the link and also go ahead and say I disagree with everything on the website. Bettmans a businessman and a damn good one. If losing a season every now and then is what it takes to improve the league as much as he has over his reign then Im all for it. Heres to hoping this lockout will be the last for a while as they can hopefully accurately predict what the league will look like in 7 years. You gotta realize the NHL is a business not a profit free organization for the enjoyment of the fans. If your honestly that upset then boycot the nhl, When it returns don't watch it because that is the only way they will care what you think. Your a $ to them and as long as you keep contributing to their $ your opinion will never really be that important.

This way of thinking is sad, considering you are a fan. If losing a season every now and then is reasonable to you, then you should definitly try to become Bettman's replacement in the future, they would like you. This whole thing is a freaken joke and again fans are treated as idiots as always. You know that they could have just played and continued to negociate during the season, to SHOW respect to us, fans. Hockey isn't just a business, it's part of the culture(at least in Canada) and it's disrespectful to let fans down. I, for my part, would love to see everyone boycott the NHL for their opening games when they come back. I will definitly do it, and if an important facebook movement/group starts, I will more than offer my help to it.

[Flyerfan52]

You know that they could have just played and continued to negociate during the season, to SHOW respect to us, fans.

Don Fehr got MBA to buy into that. The players played the season but went on strike prior the the playoffs.

I know I wouldn't enjoy seeing the Flames earn a playoff berth & then every thing fades to black (no playoffs).

___________________________________________________________________

I don't like the Gnome but have less trust/respect for Don Fehr.

[CastleMania]

This way of thinking is sad, considering you are a fan. If losing a season every now and then is reasonable to you, then you should definitly try to become Bettman's replacement in the future, they would like you. This whole thing is a freaken joke and again fans are treated as idiots as always. You know that they could have just played and continued to negociate during the season, to SHOW respect to us, fans. Hockey isn't just a business, it's part of the culture(at least in Canada) and it's disrespectful to let fans down. I, for my part, would love to see everyone boycott the NHL for their opening games when they come back. I will definitly do it, and if an important facebook movement/group starts, I will more than offer my help to it.

You're kidding, right?

Why would the NHL give the PA all the bargaining power? Do you know what happened the last time a league let the players play without a CBA in place under Fehr's control? Why don't you take a look. Would you rather see the regular season played and the playoffs cancelled? IMO, not a chance in hell. Allowing the players to play without a CBA would create a major power imbalance, would lead to less incentive for negotiation (just look at the apparent lack of urgency the two sides currently have), and would ultimately be the single WORST decision the NHL could make.

While I'm not condoning what the NHL has done, the blame should not be placed squarely on their shoulders. The current lockout is the result of two sides, neither of which is any less to blame. Bargaining should have begun months before it did. Ancillary issues should have been resolved long before September, and instead, the two sides are just dealing with them now.

Don Fehr got MBA to buy into that. The players played the season but went on strike prior the the playoffs.

I know I wouldn't enjoy seeing the Flames earn a playoff berth & then every thing fades to black (no playoffs).

___________________________________________________________________

I don't like the Gnome but have less trust/respect for Don Fehr.

You beat me to it.

[PokernHockey]

Don Fehr got MBA to buy into that. The players played the season but went on strike prior the the playoffs.

I know I wouldn't enjoy seeing the Flames earn a playoff berth & then every thing fades to black (no playoffs).

___________________________________________________________________

I don't like the Gnome but have less trust/respect for Don Fehr.

Even in the NHL, the last time the league played without a CBA the players pulled the same thing late in the season. Of course the players will play without a CBA under the old contract this year when:

1) the new deal will almost certainly result in a lower % of revenues going to them. why would they have any urgency to sign a new deal before starting to play?

2) The players make money during the regular season, the owners make money during the playoffs. much more effective to strike when you are not collecting a paycheck anyway

3) Bettman wanted to start negotiating over a year ago. He was turned down by the NHLPA last summer, and Christmas specifically. The players STILL haven't countered the owners last offer which came before the lockout was announced. that is almost a month ago now! you think if they were playing there would be more urgency from the players? give me a break.

4) EDIT: Removed because it was unrelated and terribly explained.

[Flyerfan52]

You beat me to it.

Given the time stamp I probably hit post about the time you hit quote.

I know you put thought into your posts rather then the quick 1 time slam some do. I know I usually reread/reconsider what I typed before hitting post (exceptions are when replying to an idiot in the heat of the moment or after reading too many of those posts & unfortunately take it out on the next Oiler/Canuck fan).

Anyway, you, Poker & I see have have the same take on that idea. Prost!

[CastleMania]

4) even if you subscribe to complete socialistic revenue sharing, the league made $126 million profit last year, off of 3 billion in revenue. That is a 4% return. No business would ever invest in a project for a 4% return. Heck, regulated utilities get 9%+ return on equity, and they are virtually risk free investments! There has to be some give from the players. Their proposal gives them a RAISE.... they just hide it by projecting growth which in the last 7 years largely resulted from the assent of the Canadian Dollar. Do you expect the Canadian Dollar to be worth an average of $1.20 US for the life of the next cba? That is what it will need to be to be mirror the last CBA growth.

There are a lot of flaws in this reasoning.

First, your first statement that revenue sharing is "socialistic" is completely off base. If the league truly believed that there was no value in having teams in certain places that are not currently profitable, then the league would let those teams fail or have them moved, but the truth is that there are several legitimate reasons for having those teams. There is the fact that the more teams there are, the larger the market the NHL can attract. With more teams there is more diversity in stars and players which can lead to league wide revenue growth. Finally, more teams will typically mean more parity since scarce resources must be divided among more resource consumers, and league parity should theoretically lead to revenue increases. Therefore, calling revenue sharing "socialistic" is a load of crap, since there are several capitalist driven reasons for teams in more profitable markets to subsidize teams in less profitable ones. In economics it's called an integrative approach, or enlarging the pie.

Second, your statement that a 4% return is not economical is also completely off-base. This table of profit margins by industry clearly shows that several industries operate at a margin below 4%. In fact, the average market return over the past 10 years was below 4%. Further, the fact that regulated industries have a 9% ROE says nothing. Of course regulated industries see high returns, by definition, they are regulated because they operate in a natural monopoly where they can take advantage of consumers to demand higher returns.

Finally, I basically have no idea what the purpose in point 4 is. It doesn't support your statement that "Of course the players will play without a CBA under the old contract this year," and is just an attempt to throw the players position under the bus. I get that you side with the owners regarding the dispute, but if you are going to make arguments in their favour, use facts, not baseless conjecture.

Edit: I also want to point out that profit margin and return are not the same thing. You are comparing apples and oranges when you compare a 4% profit margin in the NHL to a 9.5% ROE in regulated industries. Profit margin is a measure of a firm's efficiency. It looks at how the firm manages its expenses in relation to the revenues it brings in. Return on the other hand, looks at a firm's output in respect to a certain input. In the case of ROE, that input being equity, or the owners' investment into the NHL. Return is often also measured in terms of assets or ROA. ROA shows how efficiently a firm is using its assets to generate a profit. The point being that any measure of return that you use is going to be very different from a firm's net profit margin.

[PokernHockey]

Finally, I basically have no idea what the purpose in point 4 is. It doesn't support your statement that "Of course the players will play without a CBA under the old contract this year," and is just an attempt to throw the players position under the bus. I get that you side with the owners regarding the dispute, but if you are going to make arguments in their favor, use facts, not baseless conjecture.

First, the nicest thing I can say about *my* point you highlighted is that it was poorly worded/explained at best.

I am going to withdraw, rather then argue it, because your right, what I said was incorrect, and wasn't what i intended to say there. however I want to make two quick comments.

-By socialistic I meant 100% revenue sharing. I agree that some needs to take place however 100% sharing does not make sense in the slightest.

- it also should not have been point 4 to start with, since it was a completely separate discussion. And one which I did not explain my point at all in.

[Louis23]

You're kidding, right?

Why would the NHL give the PA all the bargaining power? Do you know what happened the last time a league let the players play without a CBA in place under Fehr's control? Why don't you take a look. Would you rather see the regular season played and the playoffs cancelled? IMO, not a chance in hell. Allowing the players to play without a CBA would create a major power imbalance, would lead to less incentive for negotiation (just look at the apparent lack of urgency the two sides currently have), and would ultimately be the single WORST decision the NHL could make.

While I'm not condoning what the NHL has done, the blame should not be placed squarely on their shoulders. The current lockout is the result of two sides, neither of which is any less to blame. Bargaining should have begun months before it did. Ancillary issues should have been resolved long before September, and instead, the two sides are just dealing with them now.

You beat me to it.

Yes. Rather have a bit of hockey than no hockey at all.

[tincup1]

This I totally aggree with. I love hockey but this whole scene it so sickening I really could care less if they ever play again. I surprises me how little I miss it, and how pissed I am at the whole joke. Go away for 10 years, I could care less.

If they don't come back even this year, I think at best, there's going much less to come back to. As custodians of our, the fans game, both sides are failing. Hockey players are now such rock stars, even average ones, it kind of makes me ill watching how high a pedestal they are held on. They are reaping the rewards from decades of players before them and the fans loyalty to the game. The owners, like the Flames, come with cap in hand when times are tough like in the 90s when the dollar was low...to save our Flames. The city (Stampede) just gave them the arena and the tax payer renovated the building to boot with federal infrastucture dollars. Then when the economics turn around, they reward the fans and city who bailed them out with double digit ticket increases. Why ? Because when time are good, it's now a business and not a community thing. I wish there was a way that the fan could take back our game from these lawyers...on both sides.

[gsp393]

This way of thinking is sad, considering you are a fan. If losing a season every now and then is reasonable to you, then you should definitly try to become Bettman's replacement in the future, they would like you. This whole thing is a freaken joke and again fans are treated as idiots as always. You know that they could have just played and continued to negociate during the season, to SHOW respect to us, fans. Hockey isn't just a business, it's part of the culture(at least in Canada) and it's disrespectful to let fans down. I, for my part, would love to see everyone boycott the NHL for their opening games when they come back. I will definitly do it, and if an important facebook movement/group starts, I will more than offer my help to it.

It's the truth, sad to say. I wish pro sports were meant for entertainment but in reality they are a business, atleast the large scale organized ones are. Hockey was a terribly unpopular sport in a big portion of america not too long ago, but with the work bettman has done hockey has grown substantially. One thing everyone has to realize is that without bettman we might not have an ov or a datsyuk or a kovi. The russian factor was actually a huge thing not too long ago, where many promising russians would refuse to come overseas to play in the nhl, a lot more then now. I will admit I have said before that any players in it for the money (russians) are no loss if there not here, but along with the excessive amount of money comes the excessive fame. Its fair to say the Hart winner is the worldwide hockey mvp whereas before it wasn't so cut and dry. Along with russians Im sure a lot of other europeans didn't come over back in the day because between the money and fame it just wasn't worth it. Im not saying all the players act like employee of a business but the owners do. Theres certainly some novelty to owning a hockey team but between all the owners and investors involved money is a key factor to keeping the team. Bell doesn't own the leafs for fun. So yah if missing the odd season or part of a season is what it takes to improve the game and league as much as it has in the last 10 years then yah Im game, I could also turn it around and say that anyone not willing to lose some games to improve the sport is not a real fan.

[SKscout]

Honestly, I agree with everything on this website: http://www.firebettman.com/

Didn't click the link but given the URL I don't think I need to.

This is a better approximation of my feelings in this regard to be honest.

[DirtyDeeds]

I am pissed at both sides.

They should be talking, not meeting for tea once or twice a week to socialize about trivial matters like whether or not players should have to share rooms on the road.

They should have talked and settled all this out during the summer.

They should lock them in a room with only cheap burgers for food, until they can come to agreement. No sleep, no distractions, no phones, no TV, no reporters. Go in, bar the doors until they can get it done.

Instead you get what feels like a bad relationship headed for divorce. There is no good guys in this dispute and we the fans are the innocents losing out here.

Neither side cares about you or the hockey you are missing. They are arguing over the money in your wallet you happily give them without a whimper, if they ever get it together again anytime soon.

I can only hope all of you are half as pissed as I am.

[Flyerfan52]

I am pissed at both sides.

They should lock them in a room with only cheap burgers for food, until they can come to agreement. No sleep, no distractions, no phones, no TV, no reporters. Go in, bar the doors until they can get it done.

I can only hope all of you are half as pissed as I am.

& no soda pop, water or other liquid refreshments to wash those burgers down.

Bar the door to the bathroom too.

By gum, we'll get that deal done.

__________________________

DD, I'm as POed as anyone but that was a great opportunity for me to come out with that.

_______________________________

If they put a couple of fans in the room with Bettman & Fehr without any security guards they'd see the light very fast.

[Carty]

They should lock them in a room with only cheap burgers for food, until they can come to agreement. No sleep, no distractions, no phones, no TV, no reporters. Go in, bar the doors until they can get it done.

Forget the burgers... How about just Pizza 73 or Domino's... Either they will die of starvation rather than continue to try and eat it, or perhaps decide that eating the cardboard box with a bit of sauce is preferable, or just cry uncle and finally come to an agreement...

Instead you get what feels like a bad relationship headed for divorce. There is no good guys in this dispute and we the fans are the innocents losing out here.

I see it like we are the "Godchildren" that have the money... The ones with the huge "inheritance" that really control the purse-strings in a family that has become all to accustomed to their new lifestyle... One that without our support will otherwise have to revert back to their old lifestyle and move from the nice new house they have been living in back to the double-wide if they want to attempt to continue to live in the sun belt... And if they continue to treat me like a red-headed stepchild, I am cutting back on their allowance...

I can only hope all of you are half as pissed as I am.

Affirmative...

[Carty]

If they put a couple of fans in the room with Bettman & Fehr without any security guards they'd see the light very fast.

Deonach mé ... Ach tá mé ag tabhairt mo shillaly, agus nach bhfuil mé ag teacht amach 'Til tá muid ag déileáil ...

Translation from Irish...

I volunteer... But I'm bringing my shillaly, and I ain't coming out 'til we have a deal...

[DirtyDeeds]

On a side note. I often don't like to criticize without offering a suggestion so this suggestion goes to the NHL Executive side:

If you are going to ask a salary cut from all players, be it in the form of reduction of their share, then I propose you also look here to find some extra money to cut in a similar % $$ amount.

NHL executive salaries

Gary Bettman, Commissioner: $7,983,753

Bill Daly, Deputy commissioner: $2,856,431

John Collins, Chief operating officer: $2,315,455

Colin Campbell, Senior vice president: $2,050,743

Craig Harnett, Chief financial officer: $1,544,084

David Zimmerman, General counsel: $975,037

Joseph DeSousa, Executive VP, finance: $876,681

Michael Murphy, Senior VP, hockey operations: $711,119

Stephen Walkom** Director of officiating: $474,601

You know the "I wouldn't ask you to do anything I wouldn't do myself" thinking.

[Louis23]

It's the truth, sad to say. I wish pro sports were meant for entertainment but in reality they are a business, atleast the large scale organized ones are. Hockey was a terribly unpopular sport in a big portion of america not too long ago, but with the work bettman has done hockey has grown substantially. One thing everyone has to realize is that without bettman we might not have an ov or a datsyuk or a kovi. The russian factor was actually a huge thing not too long ago, where many promising russians would refuse to come overseas to play in the nhl, a lot more then now. I will admit I have said before that any players in it for the money (russians) are no loss if there not here, but along with the excessive amount of money comes the excessive fame. Its fair to say the Hart winner is the worldwide hockey mvp whereas before it wasn't so cut and dry. Along with russians Im sure a lot of other europeans didn't come over back in the day because between the money and fame it just wasn't worth it. Im not saying all the players act like employee of a business but the owners do. Theres certainly some novelty to owning a hockey team but between all the owners and investors involved money is a key factor to keeping the team. Bell doesn't own the leafs for fun. So yah if missing the odd season or part of a season is what it takes to improve the game and league as much as it has in the last 10 years then yah Im game, I could also turn it around and say that anyone not willing to lose some games to improve the sport is not a real fan.

I would rather have a few less Russians and a few more Canadian teams, to be honest. I think there would still be Russians in the league, with or without Bettman. While I agree he hasn't only done crap, the majority of his work IMO is marked by this : trying to sell hockey in USA, especially in the SOUTH, which is as dumb as you could get. I don't understand how someone can defend a team to stay in the desert instead of going to a place like Quebec City, Hamilton, etc. This is total nonesene and simply for this reason Bettman has lost all my respect. Hockey is a Canadian sport, let's have canadians run it. Nobody gives a navajo fry bread about hockey in the USA, that's reality. The idea of putting teams in some places of the USA is exactly like if i'd try to open a hockey shop in Sahara. These people don't care, don't know and don't want to hear about ice hockey. Why can't he admit he's made a mistake and move on?

[travel_dude]

I would rather have a few less Russians and a few more Canadian teams, to be honest. I think there would still be Russians in the league, with or without Bettman. While I agree he hasn't only done crap, the majority of his work IMO is marked by this : trying to sell hockey in USA, especially in the SOUTH, which is as dumb as you could get. I don't understand how someone can defend a team to stay in the desert instead of going to a place like Quebec City, Hamilton, etc. This is total nonesene and simply for this reason Bettman has lost all my respect. Hockey is a Canadian sport, let's have canadians run it. Nobody gives a navajo fry bread about hockey in the USA, that's reality. The idea of putting teams in some places of the USA is exactly like if i'd try to open a hockey shop in Sahara. These people don't care, don't know and don't want to hear about ice hockey. Why can't he admit he's made a mistake and move on?

Sure Canadians love hockey, but go to Buffalo, or New York, or Chicago or Detroit. Their fans are as rabid as any fans here. Do you really think it was Bettman that thwarted the sale of the Desert Dogs to that RIM guy? Think Toronto or Detroit. Moving teh Yotes to the East would keep Detroit in the West, and would be competition for the Leafs.

As far as Hockey being a Canadian sport, tell that to Sven. Tell it to the Red Army teams of the 70's. Tell it to any non-Canadian Olympic champion teams. By the way, if the CDN dollar ever gets back to $.074 USD, or the economy goes in the toilet, we may see some Canadian teams ending up like Atlanta.

[Louis23]

Sure Canadians love hockey, but go to Buffalo, or New York, or Chicago or Detroit. Their fans are as rabid as any fans here. Do you really think it was Bettman that thwarted the sale of the Desert Dogs to that RIM guy? Think Toronto or Detroit. Moving teh Yotes to the East would keep Detroit in the West, and would be competition for the Leafs.

As far as Hockey being a Canadian sport, tell that to Sven. Tell it to the Red Army teams of the 70's. Tell it to any non-Canadian Olympic champion teams. By the way, if the CDN dollar ever gets back to $.074 USD, or the economy goes in the toilet, we may see some Canadian teams ending up like Atlanta.

Do I look like I think Russians are racially inferior to Canadians? I never said anything close to this. I just said wether the players are russians or canadian, I would rather have teams in Canada than in PHX. And I wasn't complaining about the solid markets of the USA, which by the way Bettman didn't create, (he created the south). My complaint is his warp idea of imposing hockey to the south of USA, which was a terrible mistake.