Irving

[kehatch]

Anyone concerned?

I have been pro Irving this season after his great start. I thought he was solid in his NHL starts. But in his career he has yet to crack .920 in the AHL. This season his numbers finished at a disappointing .902 / 2.67. He lost his starting job again, this time to Taylor. He had an opportunity to earn back the starting job and has a pretty horrible start so the baton is back to Taylor (who is doing well so far tonight.)

I am certainly not writing him off. Just opening it up for discussion. There are certainly some flags. With him being waiver eligible next season (and an RFA this off season) decisions will have to be made.

[DirtyDeeds]

Irving had 1 stellar game against the Nucks last game before Christmas break. The team refused to play much better in front of him than for Karlsson.

His stats while slightly inflated by the one game are not that impressive.

I am no longer sure gift wrapping the backup slot (like some posters here would like) for him next year is the right thinking for his development.

[travel_dude]

Anyone concerned?

I have been pro Irving this season after his great start. I thought he was solid in his NHL starts. But in his career he has yet to crack .920 in the AHL. This season his numbers finished at a disappointing .902 / 2.67. He lost his starting job again, this time to Taylor. He had an opportunity to earn back the starting job and has a pretty horrible start so the baton is back to Taylor (who is doing well so far tonight.)

I am certainly not writing him off. Just opening it up for discussion. There are certainly some flags. With him being waiver eligible next season (and an RFA this off season) decisions will have to be made.

I think Irving has suffered the same way he did backing up Kipper; rust. Taylor stepped up at the end of the season, and into the playoffs was the go-to guy. After a playoff run by Taylor, Irving get a start, and ends up losing to the baby Leafs.

My concern for him playing on the Flames this year is that he sits for long periods without playing. I would prefer that he plays a stretch of 5 games, give Kipper(or replacement starter??) the next 7-10, then back to Irving. If he can win more 3/5 of those games, then we know we have something.

[kehatch]

After tonights game Irving may get the next start.

[kehatch]

Irving and Taylor basically split the starts.

Taylor 43GP 22W, 5SO, 0.924, 2.29

Irving 39GP 22W, 3SO, 0.902, 2.67

Irving played when the Heat were their healthiest.

It isn't youth. Irving had 140 or so AHL GP coming into this season (more then Taylor). It also isn't new. 2-seasons ago Irving lost his starting job to David Shantz (a NP playing in the ECHL).

I am not giving up on him. But he is running out of excuses and needs to step up and step up now.

[Ring-a-ding-dong-dandy]

Irving and Taylor basically split the starts.

Taylor 43GP 22W, 5SO, 0.924, 2.29

Irving 39GP 22W, 3SO, 0.902, 2.67

Irving played when the Heat were their healthiest.

It isn't youth. Irving had 140 or so AHL GP coming into this season (more then Taylor). It also isn't new. 2-seasons ago Irving lost his starting job to David Shantz (a NP playing in the ECHL).

I am not giving up on him. But he is running out of excuses and needs to step up and step up now.

Taylor won the starting job over the past 2 weeks of the season when Irving took time off for the birth of his child. Taylor was phenomenal over that time period and was on a great winning streak, so it only made sense to run with him in the playoffs. Since the playoffs started the Heat have changed goaltenders with every loss.

Also don't look too much into stats, the Heat don't typically allow many shots so a greater percentage of the shots allowed are better scoring chances against.

[C_worthy]

Not concerned.

The roller-coaster ride back and forth between the Flames and the Heat killed his momentum. Then he took time off for the birth of his child.

Then he comes back and gets one start and people are panicking (not referring to you, Kehatch but again the crazies on CP) because he doesn't play well.

He can't be 'handed' the backup spot next year, he will have to earn it. But I fully expect that he will.

While we are talking goalies, Brossoit may have a more accelerated development schedule than most. His size, along with his phenominal development, have him way past where you would expect a kid who just turned 19 should be - REALLY hoping he gets a crack at the WJC next year.

[kehatch]

Taylor won the starting job over the past 2 weeks of the season when Irving took time off for the birth of his child. Taylor was phenomenal over that time period and was on a great winning streak, so it only made sense to run with him in the playoffs. Since the playoffs started the Heat have changed goaltenders with every loss.

Also don't look too much into stats, the Heat don't typically allow many shots so a greater percentage of the shots allowed are better scoring chances against.

Taylor played for the same team and put up much much better numbers.

[geos]

The AHL is a development league to develop players. Sitting arguably the Flames #2 prospect in a key experience situation is one of the poorest organization decisions I have seen since Dutter left. Taylor doesn't have a future with the Flames, that's reality. Why he is getting key experience time on the Heat ahead of Irving borders absolute insanity or stupidity.

If it's Ward's call, I'd seriously question any discussion around promoting him to the big team. Clearly whoever is making the decision lacks long-term judgement. Ya, let's handicap our #2 prospects development to have a slightly better chance at an AHL title. Hah. What a joke.

[C_worthy]

The AHL is a development league to develop players. Sitting arguably the Flames #2 prospect in a key experience situation is one of the poorest organization decisions I have seen since Dutter left. Taylor doesn't have a future with the Flames, that's reality. Why he is getting key experience time on the Heat ahead of Irving borders absolute insanity or stupidity.

If it's Ward's call, I'd seriously question any discussion around promoting him to the big team. Clearly whoever is making the decision lacks long-term judgement. Ya, let's handicap our #2 prospects development to have a slightly better chance at an AHL title. Hah. What a joke.

This is such a one-dimensional and short-sighted argument. (not attacking you, lots of people have made it)

Yes, the AHL is a development league. But the Heat are trying to develop ALL of their prospects, not just Irving.

Playoff success is a great way to comtinue to develop players. If you have a hot goalie and you think your best chance of winning is to keep playing him, then you do. BECAUSE WINNING IS GOOD FOR ALL OF YOUR PROSPECTS.

How much development do you think Nemisz, Breen, Aliu, Byron, Horak and Reinhart are getting right now?

Plus, the organization preaches meritocracy. If that doesn't apply to Irving and Taylor, then it doesn't apply to anyone.

[geos]

This is such a one-dimensional and short-sighted argument. (not attacking you, lots of people have made it)

Yes, the AHL is a development league. But the Heat are trying to develop ALL of their prospects, not just Irving.

Playoff success is a great way to comtinue to develop players. If you have a hot goalie and you think your best chance of winning is to keep playing him, then you do. BECAUSE WINNING IS GOOD FOR ALL OF YOUR PROSPECTS.

How much development do you think Nemisz, Breen, Aliu, Byron, Horak and Reinhart are getting right now?

Plus, the organization preaches meritocracy. If that doesn't apply to Irving and Taylor, then it doesn't apply to anyone.

And giving ice time to plugs and AHL journeymen over our top prospects is one of the reasons why we had a first round pick bail to the Rangers.

Teams should stick with their top prospects and allow them to develop through struggles. I have the same issue with how they've handled Backlund. At the slightest hint of trouble, it's instant demotion and shattered confidence. I'm sure Irving's confidence has taken a huge hit for sure.

Teams that successfully develop prospects stick with them through thick and thin and allow them to fight through their slumps. Build their confidence, let them know they don't need to fear making mistakes.

This organization builds fear through the handling of their young players over the last few years. Mistakes = demotion instantly. And it shows in the team's play overall, especially the young guys.

[C_worthy]

And giving ice time to plugs and AHL journeymen over our top prospects is one of the reasons why we had a first round pick bail to the Rangers.

Teams should stick with their top prospects and allow them to develop through struggles. I have the same issue with how they've handled Backlund. At the slightest hint of trouble, it's instant demotion and shattered confidence. I'm sure Irving's confidence has taken a huge hit for sure.

Teams that successfully develop prospects stick with them through thick and thin and allow them to fight through their slumps. Build their confidence, let them know they don't need to fear making mistakes.

This organization builds fear through the handling of their young players over the last few years. Mistakes = demotion instantly. And it shows in the team's play overall, especially the young guys.

1) this has absolutely nothing to do with Erixon - that is just ridiculous

2) Irving was not 'demoted'. Going with a hot goalie is exactly what coaches SHOULD do.

3) the Flames have supported Irving and to suggest they aren't supporting him simply because Taylor had won 9 games in a row while Irving was in Calgary and/or home with the family is also ridiculous

4) meritocracy - say it with me - there are a lot of things that go into developing young players. One of them is for them to learn that things have to be EARNED.

5) the AHL is a development league, not a baby-sitting league. Suggesting that they were mean to him and that they have hurt his confidence is silly. If they HAVE hurt his confidence, then he sure as hell isn't ready to graduate to the NHL. (in other words, that is also helping him develop)

[kehatch]

And giving ice time to plugs and AHL journeymen over our top prospects is one of the reasons why we had a first round pick bail to the Rangers.

Teams should stick with their top prospects and allow them to develop through struggles. I have the same issue with how they've handled Backlund. At the slightest hint of trouble, it's instant demotion and shattered confidence. I'm sure Irving's confidence has taken a huge hit for sure.

Teams that successfully develop prospects stick with them through thick and thin and allow them to fight through their slumps. Build their confidence, let them know they don't need to fear making mistakes.

This organization builds fear through the handling of their young players over the last few years. Mistakes = demotion instantly. And it shows in the team's play overall, especially the young guys.

Your way off base Geo. The Flames did make a very real commitment to their prospect pool this season. Including letting players like Sarich ride the bench, limited players like Stajan's ice time, and parking big dollars in the AHL so prospects could play. That includes spending their recalls to bring in Irving to start over Karlsson.

The Heat were playing well and had an opportunity to go deep in the playoffs. That was worth more then playing a prospect that frankly hadn't earned the right to play.

[Crzydrvr]

And giving ice time to plugs and AHL journeymen over our top prospects is one of the reasons why we had a first round pick bail to the Rangers.

Teams should stick with their top prospects and allow them to develop through struggles. I have the same issue with how they've handled Backlund. At the slightest hint of trouble, it's instant demotion and shattered confidence. I'm sure Irving's confidence has taken a huge hit for sure.

Teams that successfully develop prospects stick with them through thick and thin and allow them to fight through their slumps. Build their confidence, let them know they don't need to fear making mistakes.

This organization builds fear through the handling of their young players over the last few years. Mistakes = demotion instantly. And it shows in the team's play overall, especially the young guys.

The Erixon scenario was not long after the D. Sutter era, so he obviously had some misconceptions about how things would be run. He also got to go to his dad's former team. He wasn't going to ever come to Calgary either way because of that one reason.

We have stuck with our top prospects. Nemisz, Byron, Horak get plenty of ice time down in the A. Our back end still has Chris Breen as a top shutdown guy despite his lack of progression (arguably he regressed from last season). The only players who didn't get strong minutes were the Wahls, who were recovering and were not ready for AHL time, and the Howses (underperforming and not working hard enough).

Since when do we immediately demote players? Brodie stuck with the big club and was really making a case for top 3 ice time. Everyone else had regular shifts and icetime. Handing top minutes on the big club to players who didn't deserve it is a surefire way to disaster. Meanwhile, the minor league coach does not run a totalitarian state. He gives ice time to the players who earn it. Irving may be a top prospect, but he did not earn his starts.

Granted, I still believe Irving will make a strong case for an NHL job come October. But right now, Danny Taylor was the better goalie. Giving the position immediately to Irving would put Feaster's mandate that "nobody will be handed anything" to shame.

If a prospect can't even outplay an AHL journeyman, what makes you think he'll be a solid NHLer? If he doesn't deserve the icetime, he won't get it. Prospects that are handed everything to them early in their careers develop a massive sense of self-entitlement. The best players, I find, are the ones that love the game the most and the ones who had to work at the game their hardest.

[cross16]

Winning is the best development course. Vince Lombardi - "winning is a habit, unforutnatly so is losing".

Taylor deserved to start I don't mind it, and I do happen to think Irving sould be the backup next season. I think without a shadow of a doubt he proved he can play in the NHL and play well and when someone does that and has a lule when they go back to AHL i usually don't pay much attention to it. How would you feel if you get a promotion, did it well, and then were sent back. Reality is it can't be that easy to adjust just like that.

[Ring-a-ding-dong-dandy]

Taylor played for the same team and put up much much better numbers.

Taylor also played his best after most of the Heat players were returned towards the end of the season, this can make a significant difference in stats

[kehatch]

Taylor also played his best after most of the Heat players were returned towards the end of the season, this can make a significant difference in stats

If I remember correctly Taylor started when they were very short in personnel. He put up ridiculous numbers. Including a couple of shutouts. The team also scored more goals when Irving was in the net.

I am not trying to trash Irving. I also don't like to judge players purely on stats and from what I say of Irving he was fine. But I think we are reaching if we say his SV% was just the team or circumstance. Not when a goalie who split starts with him had dramatically better stats.

[Ring-a-ding-dong-dandy]

If I remember correctly Taylor started when they were very short in personnel. He put up ridiculous numbers. Including a couple of shutouts. The team also scored more goals when Irving was in the net.

I am not trying to trash Irving. I also don't like to judge players purely on stats and from what I say of Irving he was fine. But I think we are reaching if we say his SV% was just the team or circumstance. Not when a goalie who split starts with him had dramatically better stats.

when Irving never played hardly at all with a full roster and Taylor played about 1/4 of his games with the full roster? also Irving's numbers dipped a little after being recalled, I'm not sure if it was the lack of playing when he was on the big club, the additional travel for the extra recalls, or even something as small as Malarchuk asking him to focus on a certain area of his game, But yes it is fair to bring up circumstance, its more than fair.

and all goaltender stats are team stats