s4xon Posted July 21, 2013 Report Share Posted July 21, 2013 I just checked the Oilers board. 1 thread on what they think will happen I read in full & they seem unaware of this change. Gagner made 3.2 last year (12th of current Oilers) so the arbitrater won't give him less. I read a few pages of another & a few of them think they can flip Gagner's rights & a pick/prospect for Bogo's rights. I'll match both your 's and raise you a It's the perfect storm, and it's about to happen... In all honesty, this is exactly what Flames fans have been patiently waiting for over the last 3 years when the Oilers fans and the staff were "so proud to select the 1st overall pick" 3 x in a row. Ebs deserves every bit of contract he's getting. However, to add the 1/2 punch to the Oil's pocket books, they are going to have to dish $6 x 4 contracts in the long run. Nothing like painting yourself into the corner. Gangner deserves every bit of a $5.5 mil contract, especially being 2nd in scoring for the team last year and also when the Oil's brass has been handing out the $$ like it's yesterday's flavor. Nothing like painting yourself into the corner. Let me tell you, getting out of that corner isn't going to be pretty. Not only do you mess up the reno, you'll ruin your new shoes too. Ok, enough with the over the top metaphors... Lets hope the arbiters side with Flames fans (and Gagner) and offer him his asking price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
403Loyalty Posted July 22, 2013 Report Share Posted July 22, 2013 I'll match both your 's and raise you a In all honesty, this is exactly what Flames fans have been patiently waiting for over the last 3 years when the Oilers fans and the staff were "so proud to select the 1st overall pick" 3 x in a row. Ebs deserves every bit of contract he's getting. However, to add the 1/2 punch to the Oil's pocket books, they are going to have to dish $6 x 4 contracts in the long run. Nothing like painting yourself into the corner. Gangner deserves every bit of a $5.5 mil contract, especially being 2nd in scoring for the team last year and also when the Oil's brass has been handing out the $$ like it's yesterday's flavor. Nothing like painting yourself into the corner. Let me tell you, getting out of that corner isn't going to be pretty. Not only do you mess up the reno, you'll ruin your new shoes too. Ok, enough with the over the top metaphors... Lets hope the arbiters side with Flames fans (and Gagner) and offer him his asking price. This wont go to arbitration, if it does the Oilers would be in a bigger mess. I see the Oiler brass coming out with a 2 yr 5.5 mil with a limited NTC at best. But they might be able to get him with a 4.75 or 5mil 1-2 yr with limited NTC. I think if the Oilers dont offer him either a) asking price but with smaller years smaller price but full NTC and multi year c) somewhere in the middle 2 yr limited NTC. But this is the Oilers haha, this might be MacT's big move to strong arm their 2nd line centreman to taking a home town discount. I hope this scenario happens and the Oilers get bit hard. Dynasty? try making the playoffs? neither have fun in cap hell with overpriced youngsters with injury problems because you didnt develop your talent correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_People1 Posted July 22, 2013 Report Share Posted July 22, 2013 I don't see them turning around right away and giving Gagner the same contract they worked so hard to get rid of in Horcoff. In other words, they're probably going to give Gagner what he wants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjgallow Posted July 22, 2013 Report Share Posted July 22, 2013 I don't see them turning around right away and giving Gagner the same contract they worked so hard to get rid of in Horcoff. In other words, they're probably going to give Gagner what he wants. Strongly agree. They'll do what all poor organizations do, and delay the problem by another year. Gagner will most likely get what he wants, and they'll worry about RNH, Schultz, Dubnyk, and Hemsky next year. Then Yakupov. Lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carty Posted July 22, 2013 Report Share Posted July 22, 2013 I don't see them turning around right away and giving Gagner the same contract they worked so hard to get rid of in Horcoff. In other words, they're probably going to give Gagner what he wants. If they don't, then they will lose Gagner to another team for a diminished return... If they do, then they are handicapped for re-signing at least one ore two of their other young guns... It's the proverbial rock and a hard place... This could very well pan out to be a new Lowe in the Oilers franchise history... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s4xon Posted July 22, 2013 Report Share Posted July 22, 2013 This wont go to arbitration, if it does the Oilers would be in a bigger mess. I see the Oiler brass coming out with a 2 yr 5.5 mil with a limited NTC at best. But they might be able to get him with a 4.75 or 5mil 1-2 yr with limited NTC. I think if the Oilers dont offer him either a) asking price but with smaller years smaller price but full NTC and multi year c) somewhere in the middle 2 yr limited NTC. But this is the Oilers haha, this might be MacT's big move to strong arm their 2nd line centreman to taking a home town discount. I hope this scenario happens and the Oilers get bit hard. Dynasty? try making the playoffs? neither have fun in cap hell with overpriced youngsters with injury problems because you didnt develop your talent correctly. I don't know, I almost see an Ian White scenario in this, however, I don't see Mac T and Gags hashing out a deal in the waiting room. I don't see Gags backing down as he was screwed over in his last contract, and watching the little boys coming in after him making more money with less scoring will only motivate him and his agent to stand pat even longer. I don't see the Oil giving out any form of an NTC. They aren't know to be an org that does, and it's something they've seen first hand screw their biggest rivals to the south on many occasion. Minus the fact that us Flames fans obviously want to see Gags earn a huge contract, and be given an NTC, I remain confident it will go to arbitration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyerfan52 Posted July 22, 2013 Report Share Posted July 22, 2013 The arbitrater is unlikely to award less then 3.5 which removes Edmonton's walk away option so they seem to have 3 choices. 1) Release Gagner outright as the waiver takes 24 hrs. meaning he's Oiler property @ the scheduled hearing and thus the arbitrated salary applies regardless. 2) Hope for the salary to be on the low end & thus tradeable. 3) Trade his rights for whatever (basically f/all) to a team that figures they can reach a deal in hours. Big test for McT & he has hours to decide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carty Posted July 22, 2013 Report Share Posted July 22, 2013 Big test for McT & he has hours to decide. Tick, tock... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
403Loyalty Posted July 22, 2013 Report Share Posted July 22, 2013 Gagner might not have gotten his 5.5 but damn close and with some nice shiney add ons. As per tsn http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=428169 Gagner signs a 3 yr worth 14.4mil at AAV of 4.8mil a season WITH a full NTC and NMC. That's huge for Gagner to get those and it keeps him in Edmonton, but it will make an odd man out situation down the road with RNH Yak and Schultz. or they keep those 3 and never have enough cap space to acquire a top defenseman. Edit: so they took option B on my list lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DL44 Posted July 22, 2013 Report Share Posted July 22, 2013 Good signing. They couldn't afford a hole down the middle like that. Looks like MacT will cross the salary cap issue when he has to... safe to bank on the idea that the cap will only be going up. Whether it will go up enough to fit the oncoming contracts of RNH/Yak/JS we will see. I don't see it as an issue at this point in time, therefore unnecessary to address now. an issue for next summer and the one after that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyDeeds Posted July 22, 2013 Report Share Posted July 22, 2013 Good signing. They couldn't afford a hole down the middle like that. Looks like MacT will cross the salary cap issue when he has to... safe to bank on the idea that the cap will only be going up. Whether it will go up enough to fit the oncoming contracts of RNH/Yak/JS we will see. I don't see it as an issue at this point in time, therefore unnecessary to address now. an issue for next summer and the one after that. I didn't see anyone saying it was a problem right now. They won't have to deal with Yak for 2 years, but they sit at 6th highest cap budget and only 1.3 m space right now. The only saving grace next year is Hemsky & his 5m comes off the books along with Ryan Smyth and his 2.5m. It appeared to me the Oilers wanted to upgrade DD if the Schneider rumors were true at the draft. Upgrades in goal usually cost more money. After that is when the rot will set in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyerfan52 Posted July 23, 2013 Report Share Posted July 23, 2013 Next year the Oilers will have just over 34 million invested in 7 forwards & 2 defense. Re-signing RNH & J. Schultz @ 6 each (going rate for the golden children set last year) put them @ them 46 for 8 forwards & 3 D. If you look on capgeek most of their later picks (cheaper EL contracts) expire @ the same time. DD probably merits a raise so 2 goalies will likely cost about 6 bringing them to 52. Even if the cap goes back to 70 they have 5 forward & 4 defense spots to fill for 18 while trying to save enough to give Nail his $6 million the next year. They need size @ center as both RNH & Gagner are easy enough to push off the puck & the smurfs on wing aren't going to change that. Their best D are Petry (also will get a raise), Smid, J Schultz & Ference (if J Schultz & Petry re-sign) which does scare the heck out of most forwards entering the zone. Unless the Oilers make their fans cry by trading @ least 1 of the blessed 5 they stay in the basement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carty Posted July 23, 2013 Report Share Posted July 23, 2013 Unless the Oilers make their fans cry by trading @ least 1 of the blessed 5 they stay in the basement. Here comes the flood... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bronco73 Posted July 27, 2013 Report Share Posted July 27, 2013 The fact of the matter is nobody knows where the cap will be at in a few years. If history is any indication, then we can assume it will continue the trend of continually increasing every year. You are far better off locking your talent up now, than waiting for when caps and likewise contracts inevitably increase. I have complete confidence that the Oilers will have no problems with retaining the talent that they now have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjgallow Posted July 28, 2013 Report Share Posted July 28, 2013 The fact of the matter is nobody knows where the cap will be at in a few years. If history is any indication, then we can assume it will continue the trend of continually increasing every year. You are far better off locking your talent up now, than waiting for when caps and likewise contracts inevitably increase. I have complete confidence that the Oilers will have no problems with retaining the talent that they now have. We know this: Salary negotiations will rise in proportion to any cap raise. What else is there to know? If the cap goes up, so does everybody's demands. Eberle and Hall already signed superstar contracts. They may live up to them, they may not. But the Oilers have Significant holes in their team and have little or no hope of retaining what they already have, which isn't nearly good enough. Huge holes on defence, and no goaltender of any consequence. Neither of these are likely to be addressed with the salary demands of their current roster. Ultimately, to win a cup, you have to have an organization that players want to play for. Players only stay with the Oilers if they're paid to do so. And that's the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyDeeds Posted July 28, 2013 Report Share Posted July 28, 2013 The fact of the matter is nobody knows where the cap will be at in a few years. If history is any indication, then we can assume it will continue the trend of continually increasing every year. You are far better off locking your talent up now, than waiting for when caps and likewise contracts inevitably increase. I have complete confidence that the Oilers will have no problems with retaining the talent that they now have. That is sort of our point. We may not know what it will rise to but we have a good indication where it won't be, that being high enough to fit in all players on the aOiler Roster with big upcoming demands. You are welcome to sit there and bury your head in the sand and continue with the "We trust MacT" to work it out mantra. BUT...... Oilers are already bumping against the cap limit: 24 roster players and only 1.3mil space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bronco73 Posted July 29, 2013 Report Share Posted July 29, 2013 We know this: Salary negotiations will rise in proportion to any cap raise. What else is there to know? If the cap goes up, so does everybody's demands. Eberle and Hall already signed superstar contracts. They may live up to them, they may not. But the Oilers have Significant holes in their team and have little or no hope of retaining what they already have, which isn't nearly good enough. Huge holes on defence, and no goaltender of any consequence. Neither of these are likely to be addressed with the salary demands of their current roster. Ultimately, to win a cup, you have to have an organization that players want to play for. Players only stay with the Oilers if they're paid to do so. And that's the problem. I do believe Eberle and Hall will be viewed as worth their contracts, and dubnyk is a great goaltender. Not superstar but he's far from inconsequential. You don't have a .920 save percentage behind a D as devoid as Edmonton had if you don't have talent. The Oilers took great strides in addressing their D deficiencies with the addition of ference, belov, and grebeshkov. There was a big commitment to better the D and they IMO now have some pretty good depth, especially with puck movers. I think the biggest holes now are size, and centre. I do think this year they finally have a roster that will be competitive enough to challenge for a playoff spot. All players stay because they are paid, none of them do it for free. There have been issues for sure with Edmonton having a horrible inability to attract talent, but there are plenty of signs that that mark is being erased, there's no reason to believe that they won't be able to attract and retain talent in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bronco73 Posted July 29, 2013 Report Share Posted July 29, 2013 That is sort of our point. We may not know what it will rise to but we have a good indication where it won't be, that being high enough to fit in all players on the aOiler Roster with big upcoming demands. You are welcome to sit there and bury your head in the sand and continue with the "We trust MacT" to work it out mantra. BUT...... Oilers are already bumping against the cap limit: 24 roster players and only 1.3mil space. For sure, I agree they are really close to the cap this year, but that stands to reason with the considerable drop with the new cba. It will be going up next year, and three names will be off the books; hemsky, smyth, jones (likely brown too). That's 10 mill right there, if he sky re-signs it will be at a lower dollar amount, and brown will not need to be replaced as they have lots of d already on the books. I believe this year will be the toughest, and things will smooth out from there. There should be enough room to sign yak and get that needed big centre going forward. edit to add: I also don't think MacTavish is finished with the trades either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyDeeds Posted July 29, 2013 Report Share Posted July 29, 2013 I do believe Eberle and Hall will be viewed as worth their contracts, and dubnyk is a great goaltender. Not superstar but he's far from inconsequential. You don't have a .920 save percentage behind a D as devoid as Edmonton had if you don't have talent. The Oilers took great strides in addressing their D deficiencies with the addition of ference, belov, and grebeshkov. There was a big commitment to better the D and they IMO now have some pretty good depth, especially with puck movers. I think the biggest holes now are size, and centre. I do think this year they finally have a roster that will be competitive enough to challenge for a playoff spot. Good example of burying your head in the sand. Lots of shots and a .920 sv % doesn't always mean a great goaltender. Poor team defense means lots of shots. The one stat that means anything if you ask goalies is "Wins" something DD has only managed .500 in his best season. He has never had a winning season in the NHL ever. But don't take my opinion as gospel lets look at some others and their ratings: In no particular order... ESPN rankings: 20th and dropped from previous year. Granted this ranking is 1 year old. NHL's own rankings: He didn't make the top 10 list here: http://thehockeywriters.com/top-10-goalies-in-the-nhl-today/ Even the bleacher report rates him 28th: 25th here: I was able to find 1 credible website who has him above 15, but the guy who does these ratings is hated around here for being biased and inaccurate. We had a whole thread about the inaccuracies from Scott Cullen: Oilers got rid of your solid backup who argueable has played as good or better. Failed to upgrade your goaltender tandom although I heard you tried to at least. Maybe you will bring your head out of the sand long enough to actually watch him play this year instead of shuffling data on paper to make him appear what you hope he will be. Your own GM when asked if he was your main starter said if you have to ask the question you have the answer...... All sorts of people are asking the questions........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DL44 Posted July 29, 2013 Report Share Posted July 29, 2013 Those rankings mean very little. Dubnyk is on equal plane as Cory Schneider.... and Schneider is lauded as being this future great #1. Difference? Teams in front of them. Dubnyk has the skillset to be just as good. Wins? It a team stat when it comes to goalies... there's a pretty good standard understanding of this fact. think you are one not watching him play... i mean you are sourcing online ranking lists??? These are subjective lists that are designed to be controversial to stir large groups of fanbases to garner hits. ESPN has Fasth at 7th? ahead of Quick? ahead of Andesron? Scrivens at 15th? Am I to assume you agree with them? ESPN has Niemi at 6th while the NHL has him at 17th? Anderson at 7th while NHL has him at 19th? They have the Vezina winner at 38th! Should Oilers fans start pimping that they have goalie ranked higher than a Vezina worthy goalie? The next one you listed has Bryz at 14th with Luongo at 18th, Crawford at 22 and Anderson at 26th... (now i guess we wait for your Bryz is UFA goalie of the Year! thread) Your bleacher report has Kipper and Brodeur ranked at 5th and 6th.... you think that sounds about right? heh even if you argue they are putting weight on career achievements, they follow up with Brian Elliot at 7th... awesome. Its more than accurate to say that sourcing lists is poor way to construct an argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bronco73 Posted July 29, 2013 Report Share Posted July 29, 2013 Good example of burying your head in the sand. Lots of shots and a .920 sv % doesn't always mean a great goaltender. Poor team defense means lots of shots. The one stat that means anything if you ask goalies is "Wins" something DD has only managed .500 in his best season. He has never had a winning season in the NHL ever. But don't take my opinion as gospel lets look at some others and their ratings: In no particular order... 20th and dropped from previous year. Granted this ranking is 1 year old. He didn't make the top 10 list here Oilers got rid of your solid backup who argueable has played as good or better. Failed to upgrade your goaltender tandom although I heard you tried to at least. Maybe you will bring your head out of the sand long enough to actually watch him play this year instead of shuffling data on paper to make him appear what you hope he will be. Your own GM when asked if he was your main starter said if you have to ask the question you have the answer...... All sorts of people are asking the questions........... Thanks DD, but I don't recall ever saying he was a top ten goaltender, ever. I said he's a great one but no superstar IIRC. wins are the most important factor yes, but wins/losses are equally attributed to the team playing in front of him as we'll as the goaltender. IMO the most important thing to look at to determine a goalies ability is save percentage. How many shots he stops vs. how many he lets in, any other stat is skewed more by things that may not be directly attributable to his play. For instance, you could have a team that only allows two shots per game, but a goalie with a .500 save percentage. The team would win a ton of games by only allowing one goal per game, but the goaltender is atrocious. Would you consider him a top ten goaltender then just because he has lots of wins? I assure you my head is not in the sand, and I agree with you that khabibulin had as good or better of a season than Dubnyk last year, but both goaltenders had an improved season, and khabibulin is too old, he will not be in the NHL for very much longer. It made more sense to say goodbye to him and get a backup with a smaller cap hit. And I understand that others in the organization have questioned whether he is a legit starter, they have their opinions and I have mine. I will tell you this though, IF Edmonton has addressed it's issues at D (and I believe they have made great strides towards that this year) the questions of whether he is a legit starter will no longer be asked. It remains to be seen of course, but for the first time in a long time I feel confident that the team will show considerable improvement on the ice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carty Posted July 29, 2013 Report Share Posted July 29, 2013 Dubnyk is on equal plane as Cory Schneider.... and Schneider is lauded as being this future great #1. Difference? Teams in front of them. Dubnyk has the skillset to be just as good. So are you saying that Alain Vigneault would have started Dubnyk instead of Luongo on the number of occasions when he went with Schneider instead of Luongo, if Dubnyk had been with the Nucks at the time in place of Schneider? Because if you are, that doesn't say much in the way towards a vote of confidence for Luongo either... Even Oiler brass has said in recent times that goaltending was one of the areas the wanted to add strength... and I am not the only one that thinks that Schneider is the better tender... This is only one out of a number of articles on the subject, but it is worth a read... http://blogs.edmontonjournal.com/2013/06/29/rumour-edmonton-oilers-pursuing-canucks-goaltender-cory-schneider/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DL44 Posted July 29, 2013 Report Share Posted July 29, 2013 Its the Canuck organization's belief that Schneider was the better long term solution for them that led to this whole fiasco. The mid blowing aspect of the whole saga was how Schneider had mystically reached this stature based on back up starts... he had what... 68 career starts coming into the season playing behind a Jennings Trophy winning team defense. His displacement of Luongo was not based on on-ice merit. It was based on a projection. If Dubnyk was able to be mentored along and spotted duty behind the same caliber of team... I'm pretty damn confident he would of matched Schneider's success and numbers. If that success and achievement was enough to push the idea of Schneider over Luongo, it likely would be enough to do the same for Dubnyk. That speaks more to the ridiculousness of the canucks management than of ill of Luongo. All you have to ask yourself is - what has Cory Schneider really achieved on the ice. I get the potential aspect... what's the actual tangible aspect? Non-existent. A really high save percentage one year he played 30ish games? SOLD! Schneider is promising. Dubnyk is promising. He's young. He just needs a team defense in front of him. He'll grow as his team solidifies in front of him. I think the best thing they can do is bring in a quality character veteran backup to help get him to his next level.. scratch that... that's second best thing they could next to pumping another quality defensive forward upfront and dman on the backend. Labarbera is a good pickup. Edit: The Oilers going after Schneider was as laughable to me as the Leafs going after Bernier... needless lateral moves that would of cost/wasted assets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carty Posted July 29, 2013 Report Share Posted July 29, 2013 There is a reason that the Nucks did not want to trade Schneider within the Division, even if the return was better... I have played in goal for a long time, and still do... My opinion is that Schneider is the better tender when compared to Dubnyk, and it seems a lot of people share that opinion... Hell, the Nucks even chose Schneider over Luongo on a number of occasions, including during the playoffs when all the cards were on the table... I just can`t see them having played Dubnyk over Luongo if that had been an option for them... and I just can`t see how anyone could... So if you are really trying to say that you see Dubnyk as being comparable to Schneider, that just does not give the impression that you have any confidence in Luongo... But as a non-Nuck fan that is not a bad thing either... We are just glad that it was Schneider that got traded, and not Lou... Playoff jitters aside, that albatross of a contract is a bonus... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DL44 Posted July 29, 2013 Report Share Posted July 29, 2013 There is a reason that the Nucks did not want to trade Schneider within the Division, even if the return was better... I have played in goal for a long time, and still do... My opinion is that Schneider is the better tender when compared to Dubnyk, and it seems a lot of people share that opinion... Hell, the Nucks even chose Schneider over Luongo on a number of occasions, including during the playoffs when all the cards were on the table... I just can`t see them having played Dubnyk over Luongo if that had been an option for them... and I just can`t see how anyone could... So if you are really trying to say that you see Dubnyk as being comparable to Schneider, that just does not give the impression that you have any confidence in Luongo... But as a non-Nuck fan that is not a bad thing either... We are just glad that it was Schneider that got traded, and not Lou... Playoff jitters aside, that albatross of a contract is a bonus... You missed my point. I said if he obtained the same results, then its only logical the same decision would of been made by coaches and management.. even if the goalie's name was Irving. But finally.. Canuck fan and non-canuck fan can agree on something - Glad Schneider got traded instead of Luongo. For the record...Schneider has proven to be the far more jittery playoff performer to this point of his career... Anxiety induced cramp job in the Chicago series (an ongoing battle he'll likely have for the duration of his career), to 1 win and 2 loses last yr, to getting yanked, zero wins and choking the series winner as brutally as one possibly could this yr... People love the 'what could be' over the 'what is'... Back on point since this thread is being hijacked away from Dubnyk and the Oilers... comes down to the team in front of him... until that's rectified, we won't see the acheivement of his true ceiling... I happen to think it would be in line with what everyone 'thinks' is Schneider's... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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