Flames & Losing For Higher Draft Order.

[robrob1974]

Well I still think we draft 8th overall.

[conundrumed]

C'mon, what an idiotic comment.  First off, the ONLY way for the Flames to lose 10 straight is if the players give up, and yes, if they did, it would impact them and the team for years to come.

 

Secondly, with the lottery, even if you finish last you have a poor chance of getting #1 overall.  And even if you did, Matthews hardly looks any more an impact forward that probably 8-10 guys that are going to be picked in the upcoming draft.

ccc, this isn't an elitist board.

If you don't agree, I'm sure you're mature enough to compile your argument without the rhetoric of the mentally handicapped.

Iqqaz has a total of 3 posts, and I'm sure they decided to do so because of being a fervent Flames fan, and is very welcomed.

I'm certain no one here mocked you so hard when you joined.

But I'm sure we could, if this is your character, which I'm sure it is not.

Matthews has no more impact than Nylander?

C'mon man. This roster can't have an enduring losing streak? That's some funny elbowing.

[cccsberg]

ccc, this isn't an elitist board.

If you don't agree, I'm sure you're mature enough to compile your argument without the rhetoric of the mentally handicapped.

Iqqaz has a total of 3 posts, and I'm sure they decided to do so because of being a fervent Flames fan, and is very welcomed.

I'm certain no one here mocked you so hard when you joined.

But I'm sure we could, if this is your character, which I'm sure it is not.

Matthews has no more impact than Nylander?

C'mon man. This roster can't have an enduring losing streak? That's some funny elbowing.

My apologies to lqqaz, never noticed you were just new.  I overreacted to what sounded like a "why don't we just tank, because that's definitely the way to improve" post that we've seen far too often.  

 

lqqaz, welcome aboard, sorry for the rough ride....

 

As for impact, we all know draft rankings are only that, the consensus before the draft.  Nobody really knows how the players will turn out.  Also, Matthews has had a few red flags for my liking, like suspect game when the chips are all on the table, like the WJC and Swiss league playoffs.  We'll see how he turns out.  And yes, I expect that if the Flames win the lottery, and unless they can pull off a ridiculous haul plus still get one of the Finns, we would end up with him.  

[checkerman]

I agree no pro players would ever not play hard. they are playing for there contracts and their locker room pride. you don't want to let your line down anytime. you draft where you draft and trust your scouting staff.

[robrob1974]

I guess it leads them into next year then. Hope the team play can transfer because it's ridiculous that they play better when they're down and out and come out without that pride early in the season. I Hope it's a learning experience and they can grow and make the playoffs continually. But if the same ol' song and dance happens next year...

We can't use key injuries as an excuse either, unless you're the Canadiens.

[cccsberg]

I guess it leads them into next year then. Hope the team play can transfer because it's ridiculous that they play better when they're down and out and come out without that pride early in the season. I Hope it's a learning experience and they can grow and make the playoffs continually. But if the same ol' song and dance happens next year...

We can't use key injuries as an excuse either, unless you're the Canadiens.

Three things that really sunk their start this year:

 

1/ Brodie injury & Hamilton new/getting adjusted

 

2/ 3-headed goalie monster and uncertainties there, leading to loss of confidence of all

 

3/ with last year's playoff success and player additions the expectations were to the moon.  Way too much for this young team, especially when other things came up and instantly, massive pressure to succeed.

[robrob1974]

The team should have been ready from day 1 regardless of whether Brodie was in or not. I understand, Giordano was coming off his injury as well, but the rest of the team has no excuse. 

 

Injuries aren't supposed to be an excuse either, every team has them. 

 

Hartley should have ran with one goalie instead of bouncing around hoping one would catch fire, so I get you on that one. But the rest of the team had no excuse for their play for the first 20 games, plus all of the sub .500 hockey that was played up until recently. 

 Don't worry. The Flames won't have a losing culture for 10 games. Because 10 games of a losing culture is definitely more impactful than getting a franchise forward for 20 years...

 

 I am a little more on your side. All of the other teams are tanking and getting the better players. I hope our scouts do a good enough job and get us someone good. 

 

For me, it's a lot different now because the pressure is off, they can be loose as they've got nothing to lose, but a contract to gain. It scares me to think it could keep us in mediocrity like it did in the past when we had Iggy and all of those other losing teams prior to him.

I think we're going to win 6 more games with possibly an OT loss or two in there as well... 

[The_People1]

At the end of the day, missing the playoffs is failing to develop a winning culture.

 

That locker room right now, whether we are 30th or 24th, it can't be proud of itself.  Plus, 25% of the roster won't/shouldn't be back next season.  New faces, new beginnings, and new culture.

[kehatch]

At the end of the day, missing the playoffs is failing to develop a winning culture.

That locker room right now, whether we are 30th or 24th, it can't be proud of itself. Plus, 25% of the roster won't/shouldn't be back next season. New faces, new beginnings, and new culture.

You can't see the difference between how the Flames are playing vs how the late season Oilers historically were? You can't see the benefit of refusing to give up on our young core?

[CheersMan]

At the end of the day, missing the playoffs is failing to develop a winning culture.

 

That locker room right now, whether we are 30th or 24th, it can't be proud of itself.  Plus, 25% of the roster won't/shouldn't be back next season.  New faces, new beginnings, and new culture.

 

 

You can't see the difference between how the Flames are playing vs how the late season Oilers historically were? You can't see the benefit of refusing to give up on our young core?

 

I think Peeps needs to clarify who is 25% (6 players) are.

[The_People1]

You can't see the difference between how the Flames are playing vs how the late season Oilers historically were? You can't see the benefit of refusing to give up on our young core?

 

Since I am proposing we follow in the foot steps of the Florida Panthers and Tampa Bay Lightning, don't waste time comparing the Flames to the Oilers. 

[kehatch]

Since I am proposing we follow in the foot steps of the Florida Panthers and Tampa Bay Lightning, don't waste time comparing the Flames to the Oilers. 

 

You are deflecting rather then answering the questions.  A team working hard is a good thing.  A young core that really wants to win is a good thing. Spend more time looking at the results vs reality instead of the results vs your pre-conceived idea on how the rebuild should have went.

 

And before you give me a predictable "but there aren't results" post look at the effort level, Brodie's progress to being a top D in the league, Monahan leading the charts since 2011 for goal scoring, Gaudreau being one of the top players in the league in his sophomore season, etc.  Those are results.  In terms of a rebuild they are much more tangible and impact full results then the number of wins or the number on our draft pick.  

 

The rebuild is going well.  Very well.  Stop inventing things to complain about to enforce your idea of the way a rebuild should be.  

[The_People1]

You are deflecting rather then answering the questions.  A team working hard is a good thing.  A young core that really wants to win is a good thing. Spend more time looking at the results vs reality instead of the results vs your pre-conceived idea on how the rebuild should have went.

 

And before you give me a predictable "but there aren't results" post look at the effort level, Brodie's progress to being a top D in the league, Monahan leading the charts since 2011 for goal scoring, Gaudreau being one of the top players in the league in his sophomore season, etc.  Those are results.  In terms of a rebuild they are much more tangible and impact full results then the number of wins or the number on our draft pick.  

 

The rebuild is going well.  Very well.  Stop inventing things to complain about to enforce your idea of the way a rebuild should be.  

 

It's not deflecting.  You continually want me to say we should follow the Oilers path but I have never said that and have never advocated that.  Since I never said "let's be the Oilers" there's no reason for me to respond to your assertions about my comments.

[kehatch]

It's not deflecting.  You continually want me to say we should follow the Oilers path but I have never said that and have never advocated that.  Since I never said "let's be the Oilers" there's no reason for me to respond to your assertions about my comments.

 

You want the team to be losing and have dismissed the value in their late season effort.  You can insert whatever team name you want into that, but the question of "You can't see the benefit of refusing to give up on our young core" remains valid.  

 

There are many ways to build a team. The Flames may not have followed your template but they are progressing this rebuild very well.  

[cross16]

Since I am proposing we follow in the foot steps of the Florida Panthers and Tampa Bay Lightning, don't waste time comparing the Flames to the Oilers. 

 

So then in your mind Peeps what should the Flames do? Play Jonus HIller the rest of the way? play Bolig top lines minutes? They traded one of their top scorers and top dmen at the deadline and got only 1 NHL player in return. 

 

The "problem" if you want to call it that is based on talent the Flames do not have a bottom 3 team. I think people have been getting ahead of themselves thinking the Flames were going to be a bottom 3 team. I've said it before but with solid goaltending this is a playoff contender so now that you are seeing them get solid goaltending they are playing closer to the level that they are and should have been all year long. Its a young team so stuff like cracking under expectations, or not finding consistancy isn't all that surprsing.

 

I get everyone wants a top 3 pick but what exaclty are the Flames do to. The only way to get there would to be playing Hiller basically every game and amending the lines so that Johny/Mony don't play as much. If you believe they should do that fine, but I don't and think its ridculous to do so and teams that have had bottom 3 picks didn't do it either. Most of the time, teams that pick in the botttom 3 are that bad, Flames are not. 

[The_People1]

You want the team to be losing and have dismissed the value in their late season effort.  You can insert whatever team name you want into that, but the question of "You can't see the benefit of refusing to give up on our young core" remains valid.  

 

There are many ways to build a team. The Flames may not have followed your template but they are progressing this rebuild very well.  

 

If losing begats losing, then teams that lose will always lose.  We would not have teams like the Florida Panthers and Tampa Bay Lightning this season.  So, rather than just say losing begats losing, let's take an objective and fair look at what's the fundamental difference between the Oilers vs Panthers/Lightning.  For that matter, the Avalanche.

 

You will find that,

1. Draft #1 overall alone does not work.  This is what the Oilers are doing and this is also what I do not advocate.  (side note: I remember hearing on radio that Jeff Petry was the only NHLer the Oilers have produced beyond the 1st round in 8 years.  Horrible draft record.)

2. Draft #1 overall, in combination with drafting well in all other rounds, developing players, have young talent in all positions/situations, including bottom pairing D and bottom 6 forwards.  That overpowers losing culture.

 

Until you acknowledge what I'm actually saying in this thread, there's no reason continuing the conversation.  Of course I see value in winning down the stretch for our young core.  Insinuating that I don't is just insulting.  I have been proposing a non-weighted lottery the entire thread for all teams that miss the playoffs because I see value in winning down the stretch.  I don't think it's fair to penalize teams that win down the stretch when the playoffs are out of reach.   But, without a non-weighted lottery, it's comes down to a choice between winning down the stretch and drafting a high potential core player (ie. Pulujarvi).  THAT's the point of discussion.  I am choosing to draft higher as I see the benefit of a high potential core piece to be more beneficial than winning down the stretch.

 

It's not, "there's no benefit to winning" but rather, "there's more benefit to drafting higher compared to winning down the stretch".

[kehatch]

A draft is a mechanism to get great players. Outside of that draft position is arbitrary. It's a meaningless bullet note.

Your so caught up on trying to get a number one pick your ignoring the great players that we acquired via other mechanisms. A number 1 pick is not a requisite to a Stanley Cup.

The point your missing is that we are winning because of the work ethic and accomplishments of those young players that were acquired by other mechanisms. Winning is a good thing for that reason and it will beget more winning. So whining about it because none of them happen to be a number 1 pick is silly.

[The_People1]

A draft is a mechanism to get great players. Outside of that draft position is arbitrary. It's a meaningless bullet note.

Your so caught up on trying to get a number one pick your ignoring the great players that we acquired via other mechanisms. A number 1 pick is not a requisite to a Stanley Cup.

The point your missing is that we are winning because of the work ethic and accomplishments of those young players that were acquired by other mechanisms. Winning is a good thing for that reason and it will beget more winning. So whining about it because none of them happen to be a number 1 pick is silly.

 

How does getting a number one pick ignore the great players that we acquired via other mechanism?  Are you suggesting that I want the Flames to get a #1 pick and ignore getting great players via other mechanisms?  ...a position that I do not take?

 

How come we missed the playoffs after making the playoffs last season?  Because winning begets winning?

[ABC923]

I don't like the idea of tanking a season away, nor do I expect the team to throw games or try not to win.  That would be a travesty.  Be that as it may though, the draft is one of many ways we can get better (which I think is what Peeps is saying).  Of course, given that this is a thread about draft position, that is getting more emphasis than other ways.  The fact is if we were to draft top three this year, we would be a better team next year.  If we draft outside the top 5, we probably are not getting a player for next year, and if we are drafting outside the top ten (entirely likely imo) the odds are even lower.  Drafting high can speed up a rebuild (see Monohan), so there isn't anything wrong with wanting a high draft pick.

 

Do I want the flames to lose on purpose? No.  Do I want them to throw a whole season away like the leafs or last year's sabres? No.  Will I be disappointed if we draft in the top 3? Heck no, that would be a nice consolation to a disappointing year.

[robrob1974]

If losing begats losing, then teams that lose will always lose. We would not have teams like the Florida Panthers and Tampa Bay Lightning this season. So, rather than just say losing begats losing, let's take an objective and fair look at what's the fundamental difference between the Oilers vs Panthers/Lightning. For that matter, the Avalanche.

You will find that,

1. Draft #1 overall alone does not work. This is what the Oilers are doing and this is also what I do not advocate. (side note: I remember hearing on radio that Jeff Petry was the only NHLer the Oilers have produced beyond the 1st round in 8 years. Horrible draft record.)

2. Draft #1 overall, in combination with drafting well in all other rounds, developing players, have young talent in all positions/situations, including bottom pairing D and bottom 6 forwards. That overpowers losing culture.

Until you acknowledge what I'm actually saying in this thread, there's no reason continuing the conversation. Of course I see value in winning down the stretch for our young core. Insinuating that I don't is just insulting. I have been proposing a non-weighted lottery the entire thread for all teams that miss the playoffs because I see value in winning down the stretch. I don't think it's fair to penalize teams that win down the stretch when the playoffs are out of reach. But, without a non-weighted lottery, it's comes down to a choice between winning down the stretch and drafting a high potential core player (ie. Pulujarvi). THAT's the point of discussion. I am choosing to draft higher as I see the benefit of a high potential core piece to be more beneficial than winning down the stretch.

It's not, "there's no benefit to winning" but rather, "there's more benefit to drafting higher compared to winning down the stretch".

The Kings, the Blackhawks and the team's you mentioned all had to lose before winning. I don't think losing out correlates to a team continually being crap.

The oilers had a revolving door of coaches. Even when they had improvement the year that one coach got, they fired him the next for Eakins.

Also, should their best young prospects have started as early as they did. Their offense was NHL ready, but not their bodies. A guy like Yakupov could've used a year or two in the AHL if they really wanted to develop him.

It is frustrating because this team was so crappy for most of the year. We hoped and wanted them to win and make the playoffs. They continually started games slow and behind. It is frustrating now because we could've had a better pick. Other teams are tanking, and that's boosting our wins as well.

Even teams like Pitsburgh and others aren't getting up for us, so these wins don't feel real. When games matter and we are in a hunt, is when I will agree.

When players are upping their games when they don't matter, that is easy. When it matters, that is when a true measure of whether winning matters.

[robrob1974]

A draft is a mechanism to get great players. Outside of that draft position is arbitrary. It's a meaningless bullet note.

Your so caught up on trying to get a number one pick your ignoring the great players that we acquired via other mechanisms. A number 1 pick is not a requisite to a Stanley Cup.

The point your missing is that we are winning because of the work ethic and accomplishments of those young players that were acquired by other mechanisms. Winning is a good thing for that reason and it will beget more winning. So whining about it because none of them happen to be a number 1 pick is silly.

I don't see Peeps dismissing other players and other acquiring mechanisms. He was hoping for wins all year until the season was apparently lost. The fact they played like crap all year until recently is baffling for us. We hoped they'd make it, but nothing about this year looked promising other than a few players continually improving.

Now that we saw how close we were to a good pick, we decide to play good hockey? It's just odd and sucks because these games don't matter. Pressure is off.

[kehatch]

How does getting a number one pick ignore the great players that we acquired via other mechanism? Are you suggesting that I want the Flames to get a #1 pick and ignore getting great players via other mechanisms? ...a position that I do not take?

How come we missed the playoffs after making the playoffs last season? Because winning begets winning?

No I am not suggesting that. But your stuck on the notion we need to tank to get a number one pick and it's the ONLY way we are going to be successful. It has been an ongoing topic for years.

Outside of a lottery win the Flames aren't getting a number 1 pick anytime soon. Not in this generation of players. Complaining that our young team is doing too well to suck that badly is the ring way to look at it. The better our young players do the happier I am. The harder they work the happier I am. Because I am more interested in how that young core is developing then I am if getting a number one pick.

[robrob1974]

My only issue is, we are so low in the standings, playoff teams aren't trying against us.

Do you think all of the recent teams came with their best efforts? i don't think so.

I wanted to see this when it mattered, when they were fighting for the playoffs.

[kehatch]

My only issue is, we are so low in the standings, playoff teams aren't trying against us.

Do you think all of the recent teams came with their best efforts? i don't think so.

I wanted to see this when it mattered, when they were fighting for the playoffs.

They played like this for the bulk of the season. The results improved when goaltending improved. With the exception of Ortio or the new call ups I can't think of a single player that just started to play well.

[DirtyDeeds]

The purpose of pro sports is to win games, not get a high draft pick.