Joel Armia Draft Him

[Flames_123]

The reports on this kid are phenomenal.. Every indication says he is gonna be a great NHL player! and he will most likely fall to the flames... Anyone got thoughts on him?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCwzWWWiKIU

[cross16]

I think he's definetly part of the conversation for the Flames. I'll be honest the centers in this class have been getting most of my focus because I'd really like to see an offensive center drafted.

Armia seems to be moving up the boards though so not sure if he'll be an option. There are some prospects that are getting injured, namely Ryan Strome, so I think there is some potentiall that if the Flames do wind up in the mid teens, some top 10 ranked propsects could be there.

[JA_Boomer]

The reports on this kid are phenomenal.. Every indication says he is gonna be a great NHL player! and he will most likely fall to the flames... Anyone got thoughts on him?

I agree, would be a good pick. Let's keep the Finnish Flames going haha. My buddy was bored yesterday and crunched some numbers. International draft picks on Canadian teams are statistically more likely to have better NHL careers and play more games for the team that drafted them, then Canadian born players drafted by Canadian franchises. His theory is that too much pressure is put on Canadian kids playing in Canadian markets.

Here are the numbers:

From 1990 to 2006 Canadian teams drafted 46 Canadians and 44 international players in the first round of the draft.

48% of the Canadians played over 300 games in the NHL

57% of the international played over 300 games in the NHL

20% of the Canadians played over 300 games with the team that drafted them

36% of the internationals played over 300 games with the team that drafted them

24% of Canadians played less than 50 games in the NHL

21% of internationals played less than 50 games in the NHL

56% of the Canadians played less than 50 games for the team that drafted them

41% of the internationals played less than 50 games for the team that drafted them

Pretty clear results, I was surprised.

[Flames_123]

i could really see him and Backs doing magical things together... Both young and creative... Just what Calgary really needs i really like this kid a lot and he is rising quick, but lets hope he gets to us!!

[backlund116089]

I've heard he could be the next Teemu Selanne and he is very good on the powerplay.

[Pablo_Escobar]

Kids def got some talent. Looks fast, great puck control, patient and an accurate shot.

On a side note: Whats with the guy with the shiny gold helmet?

[C_worthy]

I agree, would be a good pick. Let's keep the Finnish Flames going haha. My buddy was bored yesterday and crunched some numbers. International draft picks on Canadian teams are statistically more likely to have better NHL careers and play more games for the team that drafted them, then Canadian born players drafted by Canadian franchises. His theory is that too much pressure is put on Canadian kids playing in Canadian markets.

Here are the numbers:

From 1990 to 2006 Canadian teams drafted 46 Canadians and 44 international players in the first round of the draft.

48% of the Canadians played over 300 games in the NHL

57% of the international played over 300 games in the NHL

20% of the Canadians played over 300 games with the team that drafted them

36% of the internationals played over 300 games with the team that drafted them

24% of Canadians played less than 50 games in the NHL

21% of internationals played less than 50 games in the NHL

56% of the Canadians played less than 50 games for the team that drafted them

41% of the internationals played less than 50 games for the team that drafted them

Pretty clear results, I was surprised.

Way too small of a sample size to make the conclusions you are implying.

Track the next 100 and the results could look quite different. For example, with the first item, if 2 more Canadians and 2 less international players played 300 games, the percentages would be equal.

Get to 1,000 players sampled and the results will begin to be worth analyzing.

[JA_Boomer]

Way too small of a sample size to make the conclusions you are implying.

Track the next 100 and the results could look quite different. For example, with the first item, if 2 more Canadians and 2 less international players played 300 games, the percentages would be equal.

Get to 1,000 players sampled and the results will begin to be worth analyzing.

I dissagree, the sample size is as big as it can be right now. 1990-2006 takes into account the times where main stream media has had the most impact on young players and hockey fans, and of course you can't judge 2006+ drafts because the prospects haven't had time to develop. You can also only include 1'st round picks because they are the ones who have the pressure placed on them.

I don't think this proves anything, but like I said, I was surprised by the results, and they are conclusive in that every catagory supports the same conclusion. Your never going to get 1000 samples (not for a long time), so don't rip the credability, just take it for what it is, interesting.

[Baalzamon]

Kids def got some talent. Looks fast, great puck control, patient and an accurate shot.

On a side note: Whats with the guy with the shiny gold helmet?

that would be the captain. Europe is a little different than North America.

Joel Armia has been on my list from the beginning (how can you not be intrigued by a player in his first year of nhl draft eligibility playing in an elite league?) and I would be totally stoked if the flames drafted him. Impressed too. This guy could do some damage in Abbotsford in a couple years (and hopefully Calgary too). His WJC was a little disappointing, but he played fine. the whole line was bad, really.

in parallel to Cross's post, I have also been paying attention to centers. Victor Rask was the one I was looking at mostly early on, though he's fallen from grace a little (i hear he has a pretty lousy shot). Ryan Strome will most likely go top 5, might slip to top 10 depending on what the "top" teams want to draft. Daniel Catenacci has drawn a lot of interest from me recently. Very good on faceoffs, very fast. Mika Zibanejad has been rocketing up the charts since christmas.

still, I think Armia fits best, personally. He would represent a complete change in the flames' philosophy of ALWAYS going with the safe pick (okay, nearly always)

[Crzydrvr]

Joel Armia has been on my list from the beginning (how can you not be intrigued by a player in his first year of nhl draft eligibility playing in an elite league?) and I would be totally stoked if the flames drafted him. Impressed too. This guy could do some damage in Abbotsford in a couple years (and hopefully Calgary too). His WJC was a little disappointing, but he played fine. the whole line was bad, really.

still, I think Armia fits best, personally. He would represent a complete change in the flames' philosophy of ALWAYS going with the safe pick (okay, nearly always)

As much as Joel is a top-six-or-bust forward, he does have quite a gritty side to him as well, and i wouldn't put it past him to reinvent himself as a 3rd line energy forward if it turns out he can't become a go-to guy up front.

[snap_crackle_pop]

personally , i think armia has the most potential of any non lottery pick player (top 5), but i do think if we're picking in the 13 - 18 range he's going to be gone . therefore , im looking more at centers Daniel Catenacci and Mark McNeill . Both I think will provide good offence and decent defense in the bigs in about 3 years

[Milo1]

that would be the captain. Europe is a little different than North America.

Actually that golden helmet means he has the most points in his team... At least in Finland it's so

[Baalzamon]

Actually that golden helmet means he has the most points in his team... At least in Finland it's so

I stand corrected.

[successfulblackman]

Great sight on the ice always knows where the puck is and looks like he is usually in the right place at the right time. But he is a defence last guy and can be unrelieable on the ice. MY draft topic shows guys like Mark-McNeill and Mark Scheifele These to guys are some of the best two way centers in the draft the calgary can get.

[Baalzamon]

Great sight on the ice always knows where the puck is and looks like he is usually in the right place at the right time. But he is a defence last guy and can be unrelieable on the ice. MY draft topic shows guys like Mark-McNeill and Mark Scheifele These to guys are some of the best two way centers in the draft the calgary can get.

the more I look at McNeill the less I like the idea of the Flames drafting him.

my problem with McNeill is I don't see the upside there. Right now he's producing because very few players are as big as he is. But what happens when he goes to the AHL, where pretty much every dman is his size or bigger? Yes, he's only 18 and he'll grow, but I don't see him growing much, as he's already filled out his frame (I personally haven't grown significantly taller since I was 16). He has below average offensive skill, and when he'll be unable to dominate physically his offensive production will drop dramatically. I see him as an excellent 3rd line center in the NHL in the future. That's it. No more than that.

Of the two, Scheifele's definitely the way to go.

[successfulblackman]

the more I look at McNeill the less I like the idea of the Flames drafting him.

my problem with McNeill is I don't see the upside there. Right now he's producing because very few players are as big as he is. But what happens when he goes to the AHL, where pretty much every dman is his size or bigger? Yes, he's only 18 and he'll grow, but I don't see him growing much, as he's already filled out his frame (I personally haven't grown significantly taller since I was 16). He has below average offensive skill, and when he'll be unable to dominate physically his offensive production will drop dramatically. I see him as an excellent 3rd line center in the NHL in the future. That's it. No more than that.

Of the two, Scheifele's definitely the way to go.

read this!http://www.mynhldraft.com/2011/NHL-Draft-Profiles/Mark-McNeill

He is a very smart player with soft hand and you forgot about one thing. he is only 18 he will continue to gain strength and develop his game can see him becoming a 1st line centre in 3-4 years but a 3rd line centre next season.

[Baalzamon]

read this!http://www.mynhldraft.com/2011/NHL-Draft-Profiles/Mark-McNeill

He is a very smart player with soft hand and you forgot about one thing. he is only 18 he will continue to gain strength and develop his game can see him becoming a 1st line centre in 3-4 years but a 3rd line centre next season.

as a matter of fact, I've read that profile. It sounds like the description for a top 5 prospect in the best draft crop in history. There is no way McNeill has the offensive skill to back up that flowery praise. If you're basing your opinion of McNeill on that essay, I have to say that you'll be sorely disappointed when he tops out as Malhotra 2.0. That isn't a bad thing, but he doesn't have the upside to be a #1 center.

and read what I wrote. I'm not forgetting the fact that "he is only 18 he will continue to gain strength". I said that explicitly in my post. However, not every player grows 3 inches after his draft year, and unless McNeill somehow manages to do that he won't be able to add the necessary muscle for him to dominate at the higher levels without severely sacrificing his mobility. I'm sorry, I just don't see what the fuss is about.

[cross16]

McNeill is listed using in the 6'2 200-205 range. Expecting him to put on more size/strength is a little unrealistic. he can put on more, but keep in mind McNeill isn't a great skater right now at 205 so putting on 15 pounds is not exactly going to make him fleet of foot. I understand he was one of the fastest, if not thee fastest, at the propsect camp but top speed is not the issue his acceleration and change of direction that need work.

If you also do a little more research on Mcneill you'll find he is far mroe polizaring than that article suggest. I've read reports on Mcneil that have him as a winger in the NHL not a center, a settiment I happen to share. Most think his upside is as a good 2nd line center and not a number 1. Is that bad? no not at all. But I happen to agree that Schiefelle represent more upsdie than Mcneill.I'm not opposed to Mcneill, but i expect he'll transition tot he wing in the pros and be a borderline top line winger.

[successfulblackman]

McNeill is listed using in the 6'2 200-205 range. Expecting him to put on more size/strength is a little unrealistic. he can put on more, but keep in mind McNeill isn't a great skater right now at 205 so putting on 15 pounds is not exactly going to make him fleet of foot. I understand he was one of the fastest, if not thee fastest, at the propsect camp but top speed is not the issue his acceleration and change of direction that need work.

If you also do a little more research on Mcneill you'll find he is far mroe polizaring than that article suggest. I've read reports on Mcneil that have him as a winger in the NHL not a center, a settiment I happen to share. Most think his upside is as a good 2nd line center and not a number 1. Is that bad? no not at all. But I happen to agree that Schiefelle represent more upsdie than Mcneill.I'm not opposed to Mcneill, but i expect he'll transition tot he wing in the pros and be a borderline top line winger.

Ya I remember reading the same thing about his development into a winger , but I still think that after a long summer in a NHL weight room he will gain more speed and strength. If you read about this great kid even more you will find out that he is one of the best play makers in the draft, for his hockey intellect is one comparable to Ryan-Nuget-hopins

[successfulblackman]

as a matter of fact, I've read that profile. It sounds like the description for a top 5 prospect in the best draft crop in history. There is no way McNeill has the offensive skill to back up that flowery praise. If you're basing your opinion of McNeill on that essay, I have to say that you'll be sorely disappointed when he tops out as Malhotra 2.0. That isn't a bad thing, but he doesn't have the upside to be a #1 center.

and read what I wrote. I'm not forgetting the fact that "he is only 18 he will continue to gain strength". I said that explicitly in my post. However, not every player grows 3 inches after his draft year, and unless McNeill somehow manages to do that he won't be able to add the necessary muscle for him to dominate at the higher levels without severely sacrificing his mobility. I'm sorry, I just don't see what the fuss is about.

I have being reading lots of reports on prospects not just one darn web page! I read different sources and I can tell you that a lot of the NHL scouts thought the same as you in November about this kid, and they were all surprised about how well he is developing. I have yet to read a bad report on this kid. I am not saying that this kid is a savour for this team, but I am saying that he will be the best prospect that we will have in our player development system. I can see him becoming another Ryan Getzlaf, a kid they all like you of McNeil thought that he will true into a winger and will not be able to develop more into a great centre. Look at him Now!!!!!!!!!!!! never put down a centre with size, speed, good hands, and intelligence they always become dependable players.

[cross16]

Ya I remember reading the same thing about his development into a winger , but I still think that after a long summer in a NHL weight room he will gain more speed and strength. If you read about this great kid even more you will find out that he is one of the best play makers in the draft, for his hockey intellect is one comparable to Ryan-Nuget-hopins

Hockey intellect or hockey sense does not equal great playmaker. I have yet to read and aritcle that lists Mcneill as a great playmaker let alone one of the better ones in the draft. RNH, Strome, Huberdeau, and Schiefelle (all off the top of my head) are all regarded as better playmakers than McNeill. yes, his hockey sense if very good and at a very high level but that does not necessarily make him a great playmaker.

I've read a ton of Mcneill as I have most of the first round prospects and watched them as well. I do like McNeill and think he will transition well to the pro game. I don't see Getzlaf in him though I see Craig Conroy or make a Bobby ryan style winger. Thats a very valuable prospect to have but I just think he would have to work so much on his skating to become a Getzlaf style player. Getzlaf never had an acceleartion problem, or first two step problem in junior the way McNeill does. To me, McNeill reminds me alot more of Ryan kelser than Getzlaf. I'm not sure he has the skating ability that Kesler does, but I definetly don't beleive he has the high end offence like Getzlaf does.

I think McNeill is a very solid prospect, but I would prefer guys like Joel Armia or Mark Schiefelle who i beleive have better offensive upside at the pro level. I think with Mcneill a lot of scoutns are becomming enarmoured with his size which is hard not to do. But what I wonder is like baalzamon mentioned what happens when Mcneill no longer has a size advantage? I've read some scouting reports that don't beleive McNeill has mroe than 2nd line upsdie and then i've read some that think his offence is bound to get better at the next level. but if he plays such a pro style game right now, how is he going to transfer that into the pros and still increase his offence? Thats the question I have with McNeill. Again, i like him but he is not my favorite prospect in the draft nor that guy i woudl target. that for me remains Mark Schiefelle.

[successfulblackman]

Hockey intellect or hockey sense does not equal great playmaker. I have yet to read and aritcle that lists Mcneill as a great playmaker let alone one of the better ones in the draft. RNH, Strome, Huberdeau, and Schiefelle (all off the top of my head) are all regarded as better playmakers than McNeill. yes, his hockey sense if very good and at a very high level but that does not necessarily make him a great playmaker.

I've read a ton of Mcneill as I have most of the first round prospects and watched them as well. I do like McNeill and think he will transition well to the pro game. I don't see Getzlaf in him though I see Craig Conroy or make a Bobby ryan style winger. Thats a very valuable prospect to have but I just think he would have to work so much on his skating to become a Getzlaf style player. Getzlaf never had an acceleartion problem, or first two step problem in junior the way McNeill does. To me, McNeill reminds me alot more of Ryan kelser than Getzlaf. I'm not sure he has the skating ability that Kesler does, but I definetly don't beleive he has the high end offence like Getzlaf does.

I think McNeill is a very solid prospect, but I would prefer guys like Joel Armia or Mark Schiefelle who i beleive have better offensive upside at the pro level. I think with Mcneill a lot of scoutns are becomming enarmoured with his size which is hard not to do. But what I wonder is like baalzamon mentioned what happens when Mcneill no longer has a size advantage? I've read some scouting reports that don't beleive McNeill has mroe than 2nd line upsdie and then i've read some that think his offence is bound to get better at the next level. but if he plays such a pro style game right now, how is he going to transfer that into the pros and still increase his offence? Thats the question I have with McNeill. Again, i like him but he is not my favorite prospect in the draft nor that guy i woudl target. that for me remains Mark Schiefelle.

Wayne Gretzky was a great player because he had a high level of hockey sense. How can you say that you read a lot about this kid, when you never heard of him being a great play maker. I am not saying he is the best centre in the draft, but he is top five centre men in the draft. To be a great play maker you need great hockey senses, soft hands,good skating capabilities, hard to move in front of the net, and to be able to win face offs. A bonus to this would be strength, hard to lock against the boards and the ability to drive to the net without getting knocked down. Ask yourself this, how can you be a great play maker when you don't have great hockey sense a great example of this is olli jokinen, great speed and athleticism, but for every goal he socres 0.5 goals are scored because because of his stupidity.Mark Schiefelle is a great centre he has like you said better acceleration then McNeill, but he lacks the great hockey intelligence McNeil has. Not to mention he has less points then McNeil, and he started high in the mock drafts but then start to fall unlike McNeil who has been climbing ever since he entered the draft. Joel Armia has a great shot, but he gets caught up ice and lacks a good two way game. And by the way you should check out the 2011 NHL Scouting Combine Recap McNeil had great results in hand eye coordination another great skill a nhl play maker needs, all categories of arm strength and leg strength. http://oilers.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=564812

[Baalzamon]

I am not saying he is the best centre in the draft, but he is top five centre men in the draft.

Ryan Nugent-Hopkins, Jonathan Huberdeau, Sean Couturier, Ryan Strome, Mika Zibanejad, Vladislav Namestnikov, Mark Scheifele are the top 7 centers. I don't see McNeill's name in there anywhere, do you? (IMO. CSS says McNeill ranks #6, but that's still out of the top 5)

To be a great play maker you need great hockey senses, soft hands,good skating capabilities, hard to move in front of the net, and to be able to win face offs.

since when does ability to stand in the crease have anything at all to do with playmaking? You've said several times that McNeill has great hands, but that simply isn't true. Not all hockey sense players have great playmaking skills either. Does the name Robyn Regehr ring a bell? How about Manny Malhotra?

Not to mention he has less points then McNeil, and he started high in the mock drafts but then start to fall unlike McNeil who has been climbing ever since he entered the draft.

McNeill played for a playoff team in the WHL (and was quite ineffective in the playoffs). Scheifele played for THE WORST TEAM in the OHL. Moreover, Scheifele hasn't grown into his frame yet (what is he, 6'3", 177?) while McNeill has almost completely filled his out. After the U-18's, you have to admit that Scheifele is a better player.

and besides, they've BOTH gone up since the mid-term rankings, not just McNeill

[littlereddevil]

Wayne Gretzky was a great player because he had a high level of hockey sense. How can you say that you read a lot about this kid, when you never heard of him being a great play maker. I am not saying he is the best centre in the draft, but he is top five centre men in the draft. To be a great play maker you need great hockey senses, soft hands,good skating capabilities, hard to move in front of the net, and to be able to win face offs. A bonus to this would be strength, hard to lock against the boards and the ability to drive to the net without getting knocked down. Ask yourself this, how can you be a great play maker when you don't have great hockey sense a great example of this is olli jokinen, great speed and athleticism, but for every goal he socres 0.5 goals are scored because because of his stupidity.Mark Schiefelle is a great centre he has like you said better acceleration then McNeill, but he lacks the great hockey intelligence McNeil has. Not to mention he has less points then McNeil, and he started high in the mock drafts but then start to fall unlike McNeil who has been climbing ever since he entered the draft. Joel Armia has a great shot, but he gets caught up ice and lacks a good two way game. And by the way you should check out the 2011 NHL Scouting Combine Recap McNeil had great results in hand eye coordination another great skill a nhl play maker needs, all categories of arm strength and leg strength. http://oilers.nhl.co...s.htm?id=564812

If McNeill is going to be a viable pickup, he HAS GOT to improve his skating. From what I've read from numerous scouting reports his skating is very marginal, will take a lot of work for him to get to a pro level if he is ever able to evolve into a Getzlaf-type mold.

For me Scheifele is the more viable option, not only because he is a strong skater, but he still hasn't filled out his frame yet, and once he does, he will be just as dominant physically as McNeill, with WAY more offensive upside. Scheifele impressed me at the U-18s, he was arguably Canada's best forward, and he still put up great numbers this season in the OHL playing for the worst team in the league.

Scheifele is probably 2 years away from the NHL, McNeill is more long term in regards to his development. We need quality impact players that will be able to step into the lineup within a couple of years. McNeill I see taking at least 3 years just due to his under-par skating.

Time for the Flames to avoid players that are weak skaters. We've drafted far too many players whose skating is not up to par. Nemisz and Pelech are prime examples.

[cross16]

Wayne Gretzky was a great player because he had a high level of hockey sense. How can you say that you read a lot about this kid, when you never heard of him being a great play maker. I am not saying he is the best centre in the draft, but he is top five centre men in the draft. To be a great play maker you need great hockey senses, soft hands,good skating capabilities, hard to move in front of the net, and to be able to win face offs. A bonus to this would be strength, hard to lock against the boards and the ability to drive to the net without getting knocked down. Ask yourself this, how can you be a great play maker when you don't have great hockey sense a great example of this is olli jokinen, great speed and athleticism, but for every goal he socres 0.5 goals are scored because because of his stupidity.Mark Schiefelle is a great centre he has like you said better acceleration then McNeill, but he lacks the great hockey intelligence McNeil has. Not to mention he has less points then McNeil, and he started high in the mock drafts but then start to fall unlike McNeil who has been climbing ever since he entered the draft. Joel Armia has a great shot, but he gets caught up ice and lacks a good two way game. And by the way you should check out the 2011 NHL Scouting Combine Recap McNeil had great results in hand eye coordination another great skill a nhl play maker needs, all categories of arm strength and leg strength. http://oilers.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=564812

I really have no idea what you are saying anymore. no where did i mention half the stuff you are talking about.

to make this easier, how about you produce me a scouting report where they say he is a great playmaker or one of the best in the draft. The first thing that is always aid about McNeill is his size, strength and a pro style game. not very often is "great playmker" listed in McNeill's scouting report.

how much have you read about Schiefelle?

Scheifele is a big-time talent with the ability to make his linemates better as a great playmaker and player who can buy time in the offensive zone.

My link

Scheifele is a playmaker but contains a good scoring touch.

My link

Lastly, Joe Thornton is thrown out requenly as a comparison to Scheifelle. Whats Joe thornton's biggest asset?

IMO, if Schiefelle had played in the OHL last year he'd be a slam dunk top 10 pick. The only reason he is not in the top 10 is because there is questions about his risk. Is he a one year wonder on a team that made him look better than he is? Let's also keep in mind, McNeill and Schiefelle were both on the under 18 team and Schiefelle was the better player of the two.