ConnorFutureGM Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 I can also promise you that the Flames aren't interested in your "tradeable" players. BTW, who are these players that you think we want so badly? Flames are hurting for a right winger and a play making centre to play with Iginla. I'll let you connect the dots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crzydrvr Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 It's funny because even the players the Oilers deem as tradeable would be heavily coveted by the Flames. It shows what a difference there is in the talent levels of the 2 teams. It's funny because the same can be said of the Oilers. Take your pick: Sarich, Babchuk or Hannan? Your point is moot. Different teams have different needs. At least the guys we want could actually make a difference for us since we're actually in a playoff race. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyerfan52 Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 Sam Gagner is now worth 1 of Weber/Suter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConnorFutureGM Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 It's funny because the same can be said of the Oilers. Take your pick: Sarich, Babchuk or Hannan? Your point is moot. Different teams have different needs. At least the guys we want could actually make a difference for us since we're actually in a playoff race. Oilers don't need those defencemen? Oilers are in the hunto for a top 3 defenceman. We have Sutton who is on the trading block who has more value than any of those defencemen you listed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crzydrvr Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 Oilers don't need those defencemen? Oilers are in the hunto for a top 3 defenceman. We have Sutton who is on the trading block who has more value than any of those defencemen you listed. Luckily those things grow on trees. I'd argue that they'd be on the same level, even higher in the case of Hannan and Babchuk because a) has more mobility while still being an aggressive shutdown defenseman while b)has more offensive upside and mobility. Which is saying quite a lot because Babs isn't that mobile in the first place. Honestly, let's just assume that the Oilers are trying to improve their defense in general. Baby steps. One does not simply go from an AHL defense to a Whitney-Smid-Gilbert-(generic top 3 defenseman) overnight. It's really a shame, because if you had either another actual point-producing/puckmoving or physical shutdown defenseman, the Oil would at least have a serviceable defense. Too bad those aren't exactly being bandied about nowadays. Unless you consider Bryan Allen or Johnny Oduya the answer to that train of thought. "Flames don't need Gagner? The Flames are in the hunt for a top line center. We have Stajan on the trading block who has more value than that guy you stated." Like I said, different teams have different needs. Maybe before you start about the talent levels of a team you should check on the standings first. It's my pet peeve when talent isn't doing its work properly, that's why I've been miffed at the Flames for the past 6 years or so. And for the first 3 of those, we still made the playoffs. If I were an Oilers fan I'd be traumatized by the lack of win being put up by such a talented team. The goalies are actually doing their jobs and you STILL find a way to lose, it's like you're our brothers-in-arms or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastardsonofmacinnis Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 This is what you originally said: It's funny because even the players the Oilers deem as tradeable would be heavily coveted by the Flames. It shows what a difference there is in the talent levels of the 2 teams. Most Flames fans are looking beyond who we can get to play with Iginla. Besides that, what you said was "tradeable" players. Do you think you have players you would trade to the Flames to play with Iginla? The only valuable centre you have in my mind is RNH. The only right winger we would see as better than what we have is maybe Eberle. Are you saying they're "tradeable"? All I'm saying is that any players you want to get rid of on your bottom of the table team, I'm pretty sure the Flames can do without. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConnorFutureGM Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 Luckily those things grow on trees. I'd argue that they'd be on the same level, even higher in the case of Hannan and Babchuk because a) has more mobility while still being an aggressive shutdown defenseman while b)has more offensive upside and mobility. Which is saying quite a lot because Babs isn't that mobile in the first place. "Flames don't need Gagner? The Flames are in the hunt for a top line center. We have Stajan on the trading block who has more value than that guy you stated." Babchuk has been a healthy scratch. Hannan is similar but doesn't have the size of Sutton. Not sure if you're joking but Stajan has negative trade value. This is what you originally said: Most Flames fans are looking beyond who we can get to play with Iginla. Besides that, what you said was "tradeable" players. Do you think you have players you would trade to the Flames to play with Iginla? The only valuable centre you have in my mind is RNH. The only right winger we would see as better than what we have is maybe Eberle. Are you saying they're "tradeable"? All I'm saying is that any players you want to get rid of on your bottom of the table team, I'm pretty sure the Flames can do without. Gagner is a young play making centre. Feaster has been trying to retool the Flames with young NHL players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crzydrvr Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 Babchuk has been a healthy scratch. Hannan is similar but doesn't have the size of Sutton. Not sure if you're joking but Stajan has negative trade value. Babs has been a healthy scratch because he doesn't fit Butter's mold for a defenseman. Hannan is just as aggressive and hardhitting as Sutton with more skating ability, Sutton's size doesn't give him an edge here. Stajan has negative trade value because he plays on the fourth line. It's a bit of the chicken or the egg scenario, he isn't playing well enough to get icetime but he isn't getting the icetime he needs to play well. A faceoff ace with good defensive capabilities (or at least better than thou) and some measure of playmaking skill would be worth a lot more to some teams making a playoff push than a one-dimensional small forward who puts up 40-50 points a season in an offensive system. What do you think Gagner will put up in Butter's system? I was kidding on the Stajan thing as a whole, but you can't discount him just because you have supposedly the type of players Feaster is after. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjgallow Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 So I clock in here once in a while...quick question: Are we still on the "Flames should be like the Oilers" thing, or is that finally over? Oh and Trade suggestions: Both teams would have to cringe. Sam Gagner is already overvalued....we can't pry him. We would have to look further out. I would suggest: Jo-Bo for Edmonton's first round pick. With stuffings on either side to even it out. Probably on our end. Possiblly a future pick, for instance. Edmonton could use one of our goalies too, but they don't know it. It won't happen, though, because: 1. Edmonton would start winning if they had anything resembling defence. Edmonton is fundamentally against winning, so this would require a major shift in management's thinking. 2. Calgary would have to acquire draft picks. Calgary Hates acquiring draft picks, and typically gives them out as fast as possible. 3. Pesky NTC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C_worthy Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 It won't happen, though, because: 1. Edmonton would start winning if they had anything resembling defence. Edmonton is fundamentally against winning, so this would require a major shift in management's thinking. 2. Calgary would have to acquire draft picks. Calgary Hates acquiring draft picks, and typically gives them out as fast as possible. sad but true! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConnorFutureGM Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 So I clock in here once in a while...quick question: Are we still on the "Flames should be like the Oilers" thing, or is that finally over? Oh and Trade suggestions: Both teams would have to cringe. Sam Gagner is already overvalued....we can't pry him. We would have to look further out. I would suggest: Jo-Bo for Edmonton's first round pick. With stuffings on either side to even it out. Probably on our end. Possiblly a future pick, for instance. Edmonton could use one of our goalies too, but they don't know it. It won't happen, though, because: 1. Edmonton would start winning if they had anything resembling defence. Edmonton is fundamentally against winning, so this would require a major shift in management's thinking. 2. Calgary would have to acquire draft picks. Calgary Hates acquiring draft picks, and typically gives them out as fast as possible. 3. Pesky NTC All jokes aside, IMO Bouwmeester is not worth a lottery pick. You would be hard pressed to find a team in the lottery to think he has that value. Bouwmeester has the Flames in a real tight place. He plays a major role on the team so losing would make a major hole. Bouwmeester has a big contract with a NTC. Not many teams have the cap space to trade for Bouwmeester and the few that do might not be to Bouwmeester's liking. Add on top of all that is his market value. He can make huge contributions to a team but he doesn't have the marquee value where a team is going to give up a huge amount to get him leaving a lot bigger hole on the Flames than the return. With all that I don't see the Flames trade Bouwmeester unless he requests a trade (which would lower his value more). I guess if the Flames decide to rebuild they might also trade him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flame111 Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 Trading Jbo is a ridiculous suggestion. Gio is not playing like he was last year, the Flames without Jbo on the blue line now make me shudder. The guy is one of the most valuable players on the Flames right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C_worthy Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 All jokes aside, IMO Bouwmeester is not worth a lottery pick. This is not directed just at you Connor, as a lot of people would agree with you. But it shows just how much fans over-value draft picks and under-value actual contributing NHLers. Here is a list of all the defensemen drafted in the top 10 over the last 10 drafts: 2011 Larsson 4 Hamilton 9 Brodin 10 2010 Gudbranson 3 McIlrath 10 2009 Hedman 2 Ekman-Larson 6 Cowan 9 2008 Doughty 2 Bogosian 3 Petrangelo 4 Schenn 5 2007 Hickey 4 Alzner 5 Wllerby 10 2006 E Johnson 1 2005 J Johnson 3 Lee 9 Bourbon 10 2004 Barker 3 Smid 9 Valabik 10 2003 Suter 7 Coburn 8 Phaneuf 9 2002 Bouwmeester 2 Pitkinen 3 Whitney 4 There are only a few guys that you can say are better than JBo (Doughty and Suter for certain, then differing opinions on a few others). And of course there are a few young guys who have the potential to be better, but it is just that - potential. And remember, ALL of these players had potential, that's why they were drafted top 10. JBo is just the kind of player the Oilers will likely be trying to draft in June. The chances of them doing better than JBo is less than 25%. And the chances of getting an impact NHL defenseman are maybe 50%, depending how generous you want to be with this list as to what an impact defenseman is. Then factor in that the Oilers have a bunch of talented young forwards and now need to find a way to solidify them into a team. Drafting an 18 year old means that in all likelihood, they wouldn't get that for at least 3 years. Whereas with a player like JBo, they have an anchor to build around immediately. So to suggest that the Oilers wouldn't / shouldn't trade their lottery pick for JBo or a quality player like JBo, is frankly ridiculous. Now, whether the Flames would / should trade JBo for a lottery pick is a different matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjgallow Posted February 5, 2012 Report Share Posted February 5, 2012 Trading Jbo is a ridiculous suggestion. Gio is not playing like he was last year, the Flames without Jbo on the blue line now make me shudder. The guy is one of the most valuable players on the Flames right now. You're right...you're right. This would definitely affect our aspirations of winning the cup this year... But...would you trade Jo-Bo for two top-10 draft picks? In what's possibly the best draft this decade? Because, that's what we would end up with if we let him go. And, for the money he costs us, we could replace him in the offseason and pick up where we left off. He's crucial to us, but he's not exactly a bargain, contract-wise. Anyway, I was just kidding around. J-Bo might waive his no-trade for us, but not to head North. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conundrumed Posted February 5, 2012 Report Share Posted February 5, 2012 Jokes aside, Sam Gagner is having an EPIC moment. Now 2 goals and one assist in a 3-1 lead after 1 v Detroit. The last 11 of his teams goals, 6g/5a. EPIC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyerfan52 Posted February 5, 2012 Report Share Posted February 5, 2012 Jokes aside, Sam Gagner is having an EPIC moment. Now 2 goals and one assist in a 3-1 lead after 1 v Detroit. The last 11 of his teams goals, 6g/5a. EPIC. I think Gagner has gone to the crossroads. *A lot of you won't understand that statement* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyromancer Posted February 5, 2012 Report Share Posted February 5, 2012 Whatever you say Bob...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConnorFutureGM Posted February 5, 2012 Report Share Posted February 5, 2012 This is not directed just at you Connor, as a lot of people would agree with you. But it shows just how much fans over-value draft picks and under-value actual contributing NHLers. Here is a list of all the defensemen drafted in the top 10 over the last 10 drafts: 2011 Larsson 4 Hamilton 9 Brodin 10 2010 Gudbranson 3 McIlrath 10 2009 Hedman 2 Ekman-Larson 6 Cowan 9 2008 Doughty 2 Bogosian 3 Petrangelo 4 Schenn 5 2007 Hickey 4 Alzner 5 Wllerby 10 2006 E Johnson 1 2005 J Johnson 3 Lee 9 Bourbon 10 2004 Barker 3 Smid 9 Valabik 10 2003 Suter 7 Coburn 8 Phaneuf 9 2002 Bouwmeester 2 Pitkinen 3 Whitney 4 There are only a few guys that you can say are better than JBo (Doughty and Suter for certain, then differing opinions on a few others). And of course there are a few young guys who have the potential to be better, but it is just that - potential. And remember, ALL of these players had potential, that's why they were drafted top 10. JBo is just the kind of player the Oilers will likely be trying to draft in June. The chances of them doing better than JBo is less than 25%. And the chances of getting an impact NHL defenseman are maybe 50%, depending how generous you want to be with this list as to what an impact defenseman is. Then factor in that the Oilers have a bunch of talented young forwards and now need to find a way to solidify them into a team. Drafting an 18 year old means that in all likelihood, they wouldn't get that for at least 3 years. Whereas with a player like JBo, they have an anchor to build around immediately. So to suggest that the Oilers wouldn't / shouldn't trade their lottery pick for JBo or a quality player like JBo, is frankly ridiculous. Now, whether the Flames would / should trade JBo for a lottery pick is a different matter. To arguement was Bouwmeester's worth as a lottery pick so you would need to look at just lottery picks and then you would have to include forwards. Then a comparison of the impact of a lottery pick compared to Bouwmeester, the price and the length of time a team retains the rights of the drafted player compared to Bouwmeester. Add to that team needs even on the defence change team to team. Yes Oilers need to add a top pairing defenceman. You can believe it or not if you want but when Whitney is on top of his game he is a first pairing defenceman. Ever since he came back before the all star break and after the Oilers last played the Flames the Oilers have been on a role. Oilers defence is players played their suited minutes: Whitney- Smid-Gilbert Barker/Sutton-Petry/Potter EXTRA:Peckham The Oilers perfect fit would be a top pairing, right hand defenceman like Weber (who couldn't use Weber). Bouwmeester would help but I believe he's a left defenceman so he or another one of the Oilers defence would be pushed out of their natural position. The Oilers would also be over paying for a defenceman that could be hard to move if the Oilers would need cap space to re-sign the young kids. Not a great fit overall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastardsonofmacinnis Posted February 5, 2012 Report Share Posted February 5, 2012 I think Gagner has gone to the crossroads. *A lot of you won't understand that statement* Let's just say the guy downstairs has one more for his collection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C_worthy Posted February 5, 2012 Report Share Posted February 5, 2012 The Oilers perfect fit would be a top pairing, right hand defenceman like Weber (who couldn't use Weber). Bouwmeester would help but I believe he's a left defenceman so he or another one of the Oilers defence would be pushed out of their natural position. The Oilers would also be over paying for a defenceman that could be hard to move if the Oilers would need cap space to re-sign the young kids. Not a great fit overall. Actually, that's where JBo isn't a bad fit - his contract would end and he could be re-signed at a better price at exactly the time that the current kids are going to become more expensive. Anyway, it's all mute as a major trade between the two teams is highly unlikely to say the least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConnorFutureGM Posted February 5, 2012 Report Share Posted February 5, 2012 Actually, that's where JBo isn't a bad fit - his contract would end and he could be re-signed at a better price at exactly the time that the current kids are going to become more expensive. Anyway, it's all mute as a major trade between the two teams is highly unlikely to say the least. The first batch (Hall, Eberle and Paajarvi) will be up for new contracts when Bouwmeester has 1 year left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C_worthy Posted February 5, 2012 Report Share Posted February 5, 2012 The first batch (Hall, Eberle and Paajarvi) will be up for new contracts when Bouwmeester has 1 year left. yes but it won't be a problem at that point (Paajarvi won't cost much ), it'll become a problem when RNH hits as well, with this year's lottery pick coming a year after that. And this just illustrates how the Oilers are wasting their young, talented players' ELC contracts. They should be trying to win now, but instead they wait for the draft and the future. These ELCs will be long gone and the players will be expensive (or gone) before the defense and the goaltending are solved. An example of my point is Chicago - they went for, and got, a cup before it became too expensive to keep the supporting cast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConnorFutureGM Posted February 5, 2012 Report Share Posted February 5, 2012 yes but it won't be a problem at that point (Paajarvi won't cost much ), it'll become a problem when RNH hits as well, with this year's lottery pick coming a year after that. And this just illustrates how the Oilers are wasting their young, talented players' ELC contracts. They should be trying to win now, but instead they wait for the draft and the future. These ELCs will be long gone and the players will be expensive (or gone) before the defense and the goaltending are solved. An example of my point is Chicago - they went for, and got, a cup before it became too expensive to keep the supporting cast. I think the ELC Stanley Cup boat has already set sail. The Oilers will have to sign them to not overly priced contracts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyerfan52 Posted February 5, 2012 Report Share Posted February 5, 2012 I think the ELC Stanley Cup boat has already set sail. The Oilers will have to sign them to not overly priced contracts. How many offer sheets could the Oilers match? Especially if they want to shore up the D & G positions. Eberle is sure to be targeted & Hall will receive near as many. If a contending team offers big $s (& shows they are willing to sacrifice the needed picks because they want him) do you really think he'll say "Nah, I'll stick around for less & hope to win someday"? If the Oilers match in both cases they have less cap to sign RNH the next year & the #1 from this year the following. KLowe didn't do them any favors when he threw out OS & the other GMs will show no mercy. They all know Lowe is the 1 holding Tambellini's strings. If they intend to win with these picks they need to be big time buyers on July 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConnorFutureGM Posted February 6, 2012 Report Share Posted February 6, 2012 How many offer sheets could the Oilers match? Especially if they want to shore up the D & G positions. Eberle is sure to be targeted & Hall will receive near as many. If a contending team offers big $s (& shows they are willing to sacrifice the needed picks because they want him) do you really think he'll say "Nah, I'll stick around for less & hope to win someday"? If the Oilers match in both cases they have less cap to sign RNH the next year & the #1 from this year the following. KLowe didn't do them any favors when he threw out OS & the other GMs will show no mercy. They all know Lowe is the 1 holding Tambellini's strings. If they intend to win with these picks they need to be big time buyers on July 1. You presume that teams are going to offer them contracts which may or may not happen but you also presume that the Oilers will let them go to RFA status which is doubtful. We'll see what happens come July 1st. If one thing thing that Oilers brass has proved over the years it's their ability to plan long ahead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.