phoenix66
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Posts posted by phoenix66
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Gotta feel for Ramo this game, hasnt played in almost two weeks and gets put in against the best team in the league right now.
Hard to blame him on any of the goals so far, his defense is letting him down and Calgary is just taking too many penalties.
I would hate to see him getting judged unfairly based on this game.
No kidding..how the heck was Butler a 0 on this game? He was a turnover machine.
That being said, last night was exactly what I was worried about. Put the guy in cold against one of the best teams and hang him out to dry.
He had some unbelievable saves, could have easily been 10-3, but he had a couple softies im sure hed like back.when your team claws back to within a goal, hes gotta slam the door..and its hard to do that without any rhythm. Kipper probably couldnt have saved us last night
I hope they come right back to him next game. Let him grab hold of this job or prove he needs some ahl time and give berra the reins for a bit
Ortios play in Alaska just proves that jmac needs to go..berra/ramo push each other here..Ortio gets the reins in abbotsford..brossoit in Alaska.
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Mac was a safe guard. Putting in two guys with almost no NHL experience is a very risky move imo not just for the results of the flames but for the development of a goalie. Having Mac lets you reduce the pressure on Ramo and Berra to perform right away and allows someone like Berra to adjust to the NA game.
Agreed. When we signed him, we had no clue how those 2 would look in camp, Ortio was a bubble player who didnt really show up until prospects camp, and nobody expected brossoit to be this ahead of the curve at this stage. I think he should be rewarded by getting moved to a contending team who needs an able backup.
The next few games, assuming ramo gets a hard look will help them decide what to do with Jmac. If ramo is at least adequate, then the ramo/berra show should begin.. if he drops the ball big time then its his turn for an abbotsford conditioning stint and mcdonald stays as backup
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I'll even say this: If Ramo gets blown away today, we can't really use that to evaluate him.
Part of the problem with having so many goalies in your system, is it's not long before they all start playing badly, and it becomes very difficult to separate the goalies who are truely bad from the goalies that just haven't seen any games.
And from there, it is easy to make poor decisions. I've seen the Flames do this before, with far less goalies in the system.
I'm not a Ramo fan, but I don't think we can draw too many conclusions from tonight.
Couldnt agree more. Lets see what he can do with a string of his own. Best thing hartley could do is tell him hes starting the next one no matter what.take the pressure off.
Heard an interesting discussion on 960 the other day. Dont be too surprised if by xmas its ramo and berra, with jmac either traded, playing in abbotsford or lost on waivers. Its apparent berra is being fast tracked for a call up and hes taking full advantage of it. When he us called up it wont be to sit on the pine.
The best thing for both is to duke it out on the big club, and when that happens I won't complain who earns the starts.
Moving jmac also would allow ortio and Brossoit to both get starts in abbotsford
Lets find out now when theres no fan expectations.
I wonder if the oilers would snag joey off waivers..that would worry me a bit.
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Mac in net again...https://twitter.com/Fan960Steinberg/status/390170564666478593
**sigh** im not gonna rant about not playing ramo again..I get that you dont want to break up the string..but..having not won in anaheim since 2004..if I were hartley I would have thought it was the perfect time..but then again, theyre not supposed to be winning right now at all, so maybe its karma time and the team pulls off the win!..7-6 of course..lol
Hard to believe in the era of kipper..the last goalie to win there was Roman Turek..who got out shot 20-4 in the first period and got us to 1st intermission only down 1-0
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Only 3 goaltenders have ever won the cup as starter(hasek/khabibulin/niemi) and to my recollection I think only 5 gave ever played for it (add kipper and rask) and in every case the european was the better goalie.
Im not saying north americans suck..just that their style is no longer apt to carry that team. The better team will usually always win, my point was in regards to elevation of a team. On that entire list, I would not say any of them had the goaltender as the story of the series,except for Quick. and the one time a euro faced a north american, the euro outplayed him.
Theres a reason euro goalies are banned from the chl now, its because its recognized our goalies are not being developed. We dont create elite goaltenders anymore.
Even the olympics, our goalies used to strike fear..yes luongo won the gold, but it was in spite of him not because of him
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My bad..for giguere I was referencing the 02/03 ducks run where they lost.
When they won in 07, yes he was very good, ill add him to the list of consistents, but that was an amazing team from front to back. As much as I detest the guy, the pronger factor was in play there
An interesting twist today; Ortio assigned to Alaska and Brossoit recalled to the Heat. I guess its the only way Ortio will get consistent starts. Brossoit could actually play a game soon. Practices and the occasional start might show what he has to offer.
Ortio, on the other hand, needs to play. Whether that is the Heat, the Aces, or the Flames, he needs to play on NA ice again to get his game on track. I hope this isn't a bad thing for him, as he did show some promise in the pre-season.
I did see that. I believe youll see that switch a few times this year to ensure they both get plenty of games. Great move in my opinion
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Umm, Stanley Cup champion goalies since the lockout:
2013 Crawford - Canada
2012 Quick - USA
2011 Thomas - USA
2010 Niemi - Finland
2009 Fleury - Canada
2008 Osgood - Canada
2007 Giguere - Canada
2006 Ward - Canada
I think your point is moot.
I said consistently..none of these goalies have been dominant outside of maybe one good playoff run, and a couple were a major result of the team in front of them.
2013 Crawford - Canada it was said many times during the playoffs that he was an average goaltender on a great team. As the stanley cup goaltender they invited him to olympic camp but if he makes it at all, it will be as #3.
2012 Quick - USA he played amazing that year, but last year wasnt as much so, the book is out on him,shoot it high through traffic. His success was due mostly by spreading kipper-like across the ice
2011 Thomas - USA -I already discounted thomas as being a european experienced style goalie
2010 Niemi - Finland- again, not a dominant goalie, won because of the team in front of him. Hasnt taken san Jose anywhere, but if I was picking just one, a better goaltender than Crawford
2009 Fleury - Canada an extremely good goalie, but highly inconsistent.not the major reason they won the cup, but definitely the major reason they havent been back.
2008 Osgood - Canada again, a very average goaltender. Detroit (aside from the hasek years when you may as well have handed them the cup in training camp) went the opposite of most teams and built from the front, back..went with very average goaltending behind an incredible forward line and defense. If you need proof of this, look at his time in st louis. Couldn't stop a beach ball..went back to detroit, suddenly he was good again?
2007 Giguere - Canada one good playoff run. Missed the playoffs the following year, when they got back in, against calgary..was benched in favor of bryzgalov when they were down and facing elimination
2006 Ward - Canada, granted, the only good thing about this team for a number of years, but not even in the discussion for team Canada?
When I say consistent, I mean the ones who instantly make their teams better just by being on the ice. The ones where they win games their teams have no right winning..Eg : kipper, lundqvist, Bobrovsky, varlamov, hasek, nabakov,khabibulin (pre edmonton), bryzgalov (pre philly)
Right now, about the only one who seems to do that whos not european is craig Anderson
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This will likely stir things up, but id be leery of banking our hopes and future on any north American trained goalie.admittedly I havent watched him play, and he possibly could be that good, north America has slipped badly in developing goaltenders. Ever since every little kid wanted to be Patrick Roy and learned the butterfly, europe has become the source for goalies. Outside of Ryan miller, no north american has consistently carried a team. Before you argue tim thomas, hes a freak..who did his learning playing in europe.
UntIl we get back to goalies using reflexes and being athletic as opposed to just using position and butterfly.theyre going to keep getting owned in the nhl
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We've watched Kipper let in 100's of these goals, and never spoken of it. Even before he dropped off. The same can be said of Ramo in his NHL game. And, his first pre-game in Calgary was, in fact, a horror-show. An absolute horror show. Did he get better? Yes. Did he get brilliant? No. Did he scare the coaches? I think so. We're talking about a guy with multiple youtube videos of lettings goals in from one end of the rink to the other. And he showed us why, as soon as he got here.
Jmac also made some nice saves.
He's 3-0-1, his save percentage is the same as last year, and his save percentage is the same as Ramo's. He hardly got any playing time in the preseason. Struggling with the puck along the boards is common among goalies that haven't played much with their defense/wingers.
I'm not saying he's our saviour. I'm just saying that we're experiencing a small miracle as a team right now, and the grass is very likely not greener on the other side. Should we play Ramo? yes. Should we "develop" him if he sucks? no. Ramo Has been given a chance, and he failed to take advantage of his first one. Jmac is already proven after many years, and the coaches made the right decision in terms of getting wins, by going with him.
Ramo Will get more chances. but not 50 chances. I think, at his age, 10 chances would be fair. If he pulls it together, he may have an NHL career ahead of him. Not personally betting on it.
Ok so I feel a little better since I read this.. http://flames.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=685949 but I still say ramo is being iced.
Ill concede and withdraw my 10-0 comment, I want the flames to win, so instead ill be hoping for 7-6 victories instead:)
Gotta know though, why do you have such a hate on for this guy?
You say you dont agree hes an nhl caliber goaltender..but there is no sample size to make that determination?
He was average on a bad tampa team 4 years ago, that proves nothing as he has developed since then. Kipper was brutal in san jose and look how that turned out?
Youve seen youtube videos where he whiffs on ice length shots,.. theres 8nes where Patrick Roy does the same thing..so I guess he wasnt nhl caliber? Every goalie has a blooper reel
A bad preseason game means about as much as a good one, and in this case probably less as it was his first nhl game in years. New team, new opponints..etc..if he had stunk out all his games then id be worried..every article and every sports news show I saw said he stood on his head in the rangers game
He played great against Washington and got us a point. But, if youre goung to use the argument that he was less than average in that game and got himself benched, then jmac was worse against vancouver, so ramo should have gone right back in
Like I say, just curious why he can do nothing right?
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Ok, first off let's back off the whole emotional, and premonition based, oh my god the sky is and / or will be falling. Also looking at the aspects of goaltending, we the fans see games, the coaching staff sees games and practices. How can we as fans judge coaching decisions which take practices into account as well as games?
Is JMac our goalie of the future? no. Is Ramo our goalie of the future? Maybe but that is doubtful. At 27 years of age he will be lucky to see a decade in the NHL. With Berra a year younger and very similar in skill and style to Ramo knocking on the door, and Broissoit, Ortio and Gilles 22 or younger making cases for being the future goalies of the franchise, Ramo will have to be exceptional to stay with the Flames for half of his potential career in the NHL.
We lost out on goalies because we did not play them in the NHL? Please name them here and which team they currently play for. Irving is in Europe now. Lalande? Keetley? Spratt? McElhinney (Career Backup / call up at best). Please show me where we ruined a goalie because we did not play them. Irving LOST his spot on the Heat let alone the Flames. He is really the only one we can really say that we MIGHT have ruined by not playing.
If goalies do not develop in the AHL then why do so many goalies come out of the AHL? Do you expect them to develop in juniors and then jump right into the NHL? If so, and making them play in the NHL, then Berra, Brossoit and Ortio are all being ruined and will never play in the NHL.
While 5 games is a small sample to use in talking about and ranking NHL stats, that is what we are all doing on both sides of this argument. Ramo has not played much and we don't know for sure why not, but the coaching staff obviously has their reasons. JMac has started most of the games in the first 5 but that does not mean he will be the main starter all season. Perhaps Ramo just needs a couple more weeks of practices to be more comfortable with the angles of the smaller ice surface and then he will be the starter. You cannot call him the Flames starting goalie until he actually does have that position. As of right now, he obviously hasn't earned it.
This arguing back and forth about goalies who should or should not be in when the Flames have earned at least a point in each of their first 5 games is ridiculous. The coaches are hired to win games and do what they can to try and get the team to play it's best. Does that mean throw a goalie into the deep end and see if he swims? No, it means play the people who you think will win you the game. Sorry if you disagree, but that is professional hockey.
Ok...lots og great points in here. Im at the point im going to assume the coaches have a plan, that there is something we dont see or have been told why ramo has been glued to the bench..but the big thing worrying me now, is we have a 5 game death valley road trip starting and youve already started jmac 4 straight games, I dont see a happy ending with him going 9 (I hope I am and want to be wrong) so to not have let ramo have a couple of the easy ones made no sense.
I misworded myself, goalies do develop in the AHL, but to expect them to turn a stellar AHL career into an nhl one takes transition..and you dont get it playing once every 10 games...or 4 a year like kippers backups used to get..or less than 10 per year
Confidence in a goalie is huge..some never get it back, and getting a one game pressure test and then sitting ruins it. If they are stellar in the minors, and lousy in the nhl, 90% of the time its a confidence issue
To answer a question, goalies we have likely ruined because they never got a fair shot at the nhl level:leland irving, henrik karlsson,mcilhenny
Goalies who became stars elsewhere after being disposed of by us:
Giguere, Roloson, Sabourin(star might be pushing it..but he definitely played well)
Ones we just ruined, period...Trevor Kidd. But thats a whole other story
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So, now what...are condelences in order? Another solid win, with steady goaltending.
I know this wasn't the 10-0 loss you were hoping for phoenix, but at least he let in a couple?
trying to look on the bright side...
He let in 2 bad ones..hopefully hartley sees that jmac is overworked and gives ramo the full road trip.
You call 2 in 21 steady..but 4 in 39 makes ramo a bad goalie whos an overpaid mistake that needs to be benched...interesting
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Oh I do..I think its great we are getting out of the gate fast, and I tjink its funny we are making the oilers look silly. Im not wishing them bad, I'm just saying I have no interest in getting back to the middle of the pack but still miss the playoffs days.
Jmac is not our goalie of the future.ill be surprised if hes here next year..hell be 35 next season.at some point you need to develop one..you dont do that in the ahl..you do it by playing nhl games, and you do it by playing a string of games. Jmac is the best backup we have had in years, but he doesnt have the upside..I am wishing the team well, but if you ride a backup too long..2 things happen, first he burns out and eventually tanks a game (4th straight start tonight and hes let in 2 softies)..then 2nd you put your starter back in cold and he will likely lose that game
By the start of next season, we have an improved lineup, but once again no nhl experienced starter..isnt it better for the flames to develop that starter now?
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I've somewhat given up on the season before it started, and I'm paying way more attention to the players in this year's draft than I am the Flame's current standings.
FYI: Sam Reinhart is shaping up to be an incredible superstar, early on in this season. Think: Playing better than Baertschi did in Junior, but a year younger. Very, very few human comparables in this world (if he keeps it up).
Yet, I don't actually Want the Flames to lose any one particular game, even though I actually have a good reason to.
I'm just amazed that people would post for a 10-0 pasting because they didn't get to see their favourite goalie play.
Amazing.
p.s....why would he be your favourite goalie? Because of some interview with Feaster? I see no other reason. Regardless, I don't care if he's the 2nd coming of Patrick Roy, I've no idea why anyone here would wish for the Flames to lose 10-0 unless they get to see their favourite goalie.
Never said he was my favorite goalie..even tho he has the creds, I would be making the same argument if this were Berra, ortio, or Brossoit. We arw supposed to be developing our players..mac is a backup, pure and simple..we got in this mess because we sat goalies on the bench instead of playing them. Even if I agreed that he had a bad outing in washington (I dont) it was ONE GAME. He won the #1 job, play him..he has a bad game? Play him again. Im an ex goalie and I can tell you the best way to ruin a goalie is glue him to the bench knowing if he doesnt pitch a shut out his next chance out hes right back on the bench..
Just as you develop monahan and Sven is to keep putting them out there.
Win or lose, riding jmac this hard is the worst thing we can do.. just go get bryzgalov if youre not gonna develop somebody
Ps..why do you hate the guy?a handful of games on a bad team 4 years ago?he was the best goalie in the 2nd best league in the world, he deserves the chance to at least play himself out of the job..and.2.5 mill per season is a pretty reasonable salary for a starter
Pps..and the reason I think mac needs to get lit up is its the only way hartley may stop riding the guy, its not doing this team any favors
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He didn't have a good preseason. He was downright awful in the Edmonton game. He had an ok game against the Rangers. And he wasn't great against Washington, he was decent yet allowed two softies. Ramo hasn't been better than JMac. I could understand someone arguing they have been similar, but Ramo has not been better.
Hartley doesn't make roster decisions, he makes line up decisions. Roster decisions rest with Feaster (until Burke takes that away too). I'm sure Hartley has a lot of influence, but Feaster has the power to cover his butt.
It's not a salary cap issue, it's a oh crap I paid an ok at best goalie $5.5M.
Ill agree with you on the oilers game, but he practically stole the eangers game..hence why he was 2nd star.
And gee..first start in the nhl after 4 years, I think he can be forgiven for a couple softies considering he still darn near stole it.
If that really is true, then if I were feaster and burke, id trade macdonald..force hartley to actually play his #1 goalie...ever see the movie moneyball? Thats how a gm gets his coach to play the guy
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Macdonald starting.....sigh...this is getting ridiculous
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Ramo is on the big team because Feaster needs to look good for signing him to an absurd contract. Hartley doesn't get to play Berra because Feaster won't swap him in for Ramo.
It's not about Hartley's favourites or who should be in the NHL. It's about a stupid contract that Feaster signed. Again.
Look at Viktor Faskth, a great comparable for Ramo. He got $1M for 1 year. That's what you get when trying to show you can play the big man's game. Then, after he was fantastic last year, he got $2.9 x 2. Feaster was so determined to show that one of his "best outside the NHL" players was great that he signed Ramo to the big deal before he proved a damn thing in the league. He got the Faskth deal without playing like Faskth.
Now we're stuck with a goalie that's not very good on a $5.5M deal that Feaster needs to protect in order to make himself look good.
And you wonder why Burke is here? Hmm...
Couple issues here..first, how do we say he's not good? He Hasnt played!! He gad a great preseason, was the biggest reason the Washington game even went to a shootout..he definitely has not played himself to the bench, so to say hes not very good is an unknown, but his small sample size says otherwise
2nd..it was hartley that makes the roster decisions,, could just as easily have sent ramo down and kept berra if he really liked him better. They said he needed lots of playing time, but its now apparent he knew hed be sitting on the bench because theyd be playing jmac 98% of the time
We have lots of cap room so salary plays no part in this decision
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We are on the verge of setting a team season starting record and you are complaining about the goaltender who has played us through most of that record?
Sigh go figure....
I agree with the results, and I do agree with what you said, but..lets be honest..I hope im wrong, but eventually the wheels will fall off..teams will stop taking us lightly and we will settle into our eventual position of being bottom 3. This season is about development.jmac isn't kipper..he cant play 70+ games.Ramo needs to play regularly. He played a very strong game against washington, there is no reason he should be sitting on the bench, we are about to go on a pretty tough road trip, do we think jmac is playig the string? Or does ramo go in cold and next thing we know he blows one and hes sitting for 2 weeks again.. its a bad move, streak or not. If anything jersey is playinf like garbage right now, its the best time to give ramo his next start
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Do we know who gets the start tonight? Please tell me its not jmac,..if it is, I hate to say it but I hope we get pasted 10-0. Ramo needs to play and he needs a string of games.
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It does make absolutely no sense..I can only think hes being dangled as as trade bait. I don't buy the "sheltering him from his old team" stance as he was their property in rights only..
If this is a rebuild, then you bite the bullet and give your supposed #1 a streak bof games and let him play himself in or out. He played quite well in game 1, ... im really shaking my head at this.
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I actually agree with this, at least partially.
Reto was good, but not great, in his AHL home opener. I do suspect he may actually be the better goalie between himself and Ramo, although I agree that Ramo outplayed him, at least slightly, in the preseason.
IMHO, you are also correct that JMac is the perfect backup. Any contender would be glad to have him as a backup.
But, for us, he may have to do as a starter. From what I've seen so far, he is the better goaltender of both Ramo and Berra.
Ultimately, what matters is which two goalies are up here. I would personally expect Berra to be coming up shortly unless Ramo suddenly turns into the goalie many on here want him to be. I know I'm getting ahead of myself and we need to give Ramo a fair chance. But I completely agree with you that a very likely outcome is that Berra comes back up.
In that event, would Ramo go back down, or bolt for Russia? I'm not sure if, technically, he can go back to the KHL this year. But I think he could bolt for Russia all the same.
And, that would put an actual prospect back in the Heat's starting position.
Actually, youre going to disagree with this but I would not be surprised to see ramo and berra as the 1-2 by season end.if he plays solid like we know he will, some contender will pay to have him as insurance, and by next season im sure theyd like those 2 both up, and potentially trade ine for a great return to promote Brossoit or ortio up as backup the following season.
The entire team is growing and rebuilding, that includes the goaltending. If we wanted a pure vet who was going to steal games we woykd have pitched hard for Thomas or Bryz
I think Ramo did better but not by alot. We still dont have a number 1 goalie.
Totally agree. Main point im trying to make is jmac is the backup, as much as they say he was in the mix, he will play maybe 30 games this year behind one or both of Berra and Ramo. Hes just simply not a #1, carry the load guy..
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Now there's one more
Lol,, you make it look like I said Joey had the better game. He looked good, but ramo had flashes of brilliance. I think once he has a 10 game segment to review and the nerves have gone away, we will know better.
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Too many posts to try and quote, so ill just summarize. It's way too early to suggest a goaltending controversy between the 2. Ramo had a great preseason and played against a legitimate contender on opening night, and although there was a couple im sure hed like to have back he was a big reason there even was a shootout. Taylor looked good against colombus, another likely non playoff team, but he didnt steal this one, it was a team win.
Jmac reminds me of jamie,, the perfect backup goalie. You can play him with confidence and he will get you wins or at best not cost you the game.i suspect he could play as high as 30 games this year. But he's not a starter. Ive said a few times before that there are those who use kipper as the bar, we need to remember we have been spoiled in that regard.
So long as ramo continues to evolve, make big saves and doesnt consistently lose us games, hes proving himself the starter in my eyes. If he falters, youll see Berra up here quicker than you'll see jmac as the #1
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On the topic of Berra..has anybody else noticed he has the Abbotsford Heat emblazoned on his mask almost since the beginning? Seems kind of odd for a guy whos trying to stay with the big club..unless people have told him from the beginning hes likely to go down to get lots of playing time in to learn the nhl style...
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Ramo
lol? what happened?
I do think we need to also temper our expectations. There are many who will not be happy unless we get the 2nd coming of kipper. The bar was set extremely high with him stealing games we had no righr winning but he also covered up a lot of our shortcomings...good teams win cips with very average goaltending (chicago twice, pittsburgh, detroit, etc) if any of these guys who becomes #1 gives us at least nhl qualuty starts..with a sv% at or over .900 then we have our guy. Mike Vernon used to be counted on for at least one bone head goal per game.
We need to develop the rest of the team to limut the actual chances those teams get
Goaltending
in Flames Talk
Posted
I do agree, there were goals last night I think jmac would have had and he deserves credit for points we have gotten. The mistakes on defense lat night were just magnified with ramo there.
My main point all along has just been if you are in a position to develop players then develop them. Jmac should be playing 1 in 5 games. If youre going to sit ramo or berra or whoever on the bench in favor of a guy whos short term, then you may as well just go sign bryzgalov and let berra and ramo fight it out in the ahl this year.
There are going to be more games like last night this year. The secret is out of the bag, the flames are going to work you hard and make you earn your 2 points. Riding jmac will probably raise us to a mid pack finish, get us a pick in the teens, but then where are we at the end of the year? Going into next year with a green goalie.