The Flames In Three Years

[ConnorFutureGM]

We need to rebuild

Foundation. That is what a rebuild is about. It is about establishing a foundation that you can build a Stanley Cup winning team on.

The foundation of a NHL team is that four our five players that define the identity of the club. They are the untouchable players that you build your franchise around.

Where would Vancouver be without Daniel Sedin, Henrick Sedin, Luongo, and Kesler? Where would Chicago be without Toews, Kane, Keith, and Seabrook? Where would Pittsburgh be without Crosby, Malkin, Staal, and Fleury? Even a team like Nashville has Weber, Suter, and Rinne.

The Flames don’t have a solid foundation. The Flames foundation used to be Iginla, Kipper, Phaneuf, and Regher. Recently Giordano has elevated himself onto the list. An argument could be made that this didn’t present a cohesive core with a consistent identify. Something that was demonstrated by a lack of a team identify since the 05/06 season.

But regardless on what you think of the teams previous foundation there is no arguing that it is now diminished. Iginla is 35 and Kipper is 36. The window of opportunity with those players is frightfully small. Phaneuf and Regher were both traded without replacing their spot as part of the Flames core. Some will argue that Bouwmeester achieves this, but he is a flawed player that plays an important supporting role but isn’t someone to build a team around.

Feaster’s premise to build on the existing foundation is a faulty one. We don’t have a foundation worth building on. It needs to be rebuilt. I don’t care if it is by stockpiling draft picks and building through the draft or by trading players like Kipper and Iggy to bring back the right players. But Feaster has to do something.

Feaster’s insistence that he won’t trade a player for prospects and draft picks, that any move has to help the team win today, and that he won’t trade core players is going to force us head first to rock bottom. We are going to find ourselves down there without a starting point and we are going to be stuck down there for a long while.

You sir, are a man who knows what he is talking about.

What players do the Flames have currently that will be part of the core 4 or more years from now?

[hurtin_albertan]

You sir, are a man who knows what he is talking about.

What players do the Flames have currently that will be part of the core 4 or more years from now?

Irving in goal; Giordano, Brodie, Bouwmeester on the blue line; Backlund, Baertschi, Horak, Nemisz up front.

[calgaryboy12]

You sir, are a man who knows what he is talking about.

What players do the Flames have currently that will be part of the core 4 or more years from now?

I'm gonna say Karlson or Irving, Horak, Backlund, Giordano, Baertschi, and whoever else we end up drafting or trading for or sign.

Karlson- Has been proving himself.

Irving- Doing great in minors.

Horak- Rookie that's producing points.

Giordano- Probably will be assigned captain when Iginla unfortunatly retires.

Baertschi- Doing amazing in the WHL

Backlund- Many say he will have a breakout year.

[bosn111]

I am done trying to open your eyes Connor. Boston is too close to the cap that they can't keep all of their current players and add more pieces to make them better. I have listed why both Boychuk and Krejci could be available and how my suggested return improves Boston's chances without hurting them. Stajan and Moss might not make Ottawa a competitive team right away, but it makes them better and gives them extra pieces to build around without giving up significant draft picks. If you chose to ignore that, then that is your prerogative.

As for what pieces does Calgary have that could / would be core pieces in 4 years?

I will do better than just list the players I will even put them in slots (without any trades)

Baertschi / Backlund / ??

Tanguay / Horak / Iginla

Ferland / Reinhart / Nemisz

Bancks / Bouma / ??

Giordano / ??

Bouwmeester / ??

Brodie / ??

Wotherspoon and Ramage will likely be slotted in somewhere.

Irving / Karlsson

Not really many pieces missing which you could potentially build around in 4 years. Yes I would re-sign Iggy and shift him and Tangs to second line by this time.

The bigger question is 5 years from now what will the team look like? Tanguay will no longer be signed and I'm sure Iginla will be re-signed until then so in 5 years you lose 2 big names.

Baertschi / Backlund / ??

Ferland / Horak / Holland

?? / Reinhart / Nemisz

Bancks / Bouma / ??

I am not even adding draft picks here.

While these players (other than Backlund and Horak being NHL capable) are not guaranteed, they are showing the potential to fit these roles. Whether that comes to fruition or not is the same as any other team assembling youngsters and hoping they succeed.

When talking about a changing core in 4 years, you need to realize that any core players any team has right now could easily be gone in 4 years whether due to trades, contract issues, new prospects playing better etc. I doubt any team in the league who has had a core for more than 2 years will have the same core 4 years from now.

Calgary does not have to blow up the current team in order to look at changing the core 4 or 5 years from now. The only reason you blow up the team now is to intentionally tank in order to draft higher. Anytime you are drafting or trading players, you are hoping that you can create a foundation out of them and build around them in the future. That is what sports is all about. THERE ARE NO GUARANTEES that blowing up the team will produce different results.

This discussion only continues to discuss the same issues that we have all over. We do not have a replacement on right wing for Iginla on the top line. We lack right handed D men (other than Ramage, Henry and Babchuk under the age of 30 who might actually be able to play). If Backlund, Horak or Reinhart can play #1 centre then we will likely have very solid centremen in 4 years. RIght now I would say that in our system we have 3 #2 centremen (Horak, Backlund, Reinhart), Bouma might be in that group as well but is definitely a 3rd line possibility. I am not counting Byron, Granlund, Wahl or Gaudreau who could all make the NHL. The issue is that we don't have a projected #1 centre in the system or a higher level #4 centre (Could argue Bouma, Wahl or Cameron) while the player who best fits 4th line centre is Patterson but for all intents and purposes he doesn't seem to be progressing enough to make the NHL.

The Flames are in a situation right now where they have the players and talent (when they use it) to be a competitive team for playoff positions at least and can slowly bring up a couple of prospects at a time to fill outgoing positions and continue to remain competitive.

If you expect the Flames to push for a cup this year, then yes they need to move some pieces right now. Blowing it up and starting with skilled players who may not be a foundation (I think Heatley is very talented but I don't think I would want him as a foundational piece) is less appealing to me than having Iginla, Kiprusoff, Giordano, Bouwmeester, Jokinen, Glencross, Horak, Backlund, Karlsson and Stempniak (for his ability to help rookies) with other players mixed in. This may not be a cup winning lineup without significant support pieces but it is a solid foundation.

Vancouver's foundation of the Sedin's and others came by involving them in the team while the previous foundation was still in place so that when they took over, they would be solid. Bertuzzi, Morrison, Naslund as the top line, Linden in the leadership role. They played behind the BMN line for 5 years before taking over. Linden was the leadership for their first 7 years. Kesler first came on the scene in 03-04 and didn't really make an impact on the team until 07-08 (his 4th season) when he got his first 20 goal season. He was tied for 4th on the team with a whopping 37 points. Luongo, Kessler, the Sedins and others have been with the team since 06-07 (The year Luongo joined) and it took them until their 4th season as a core to reach the Stanley Cup Final. Through that 06-07 campaign and 07-08, Linden, Naslund and Morrison were still considered part of the core as they had been the previous 7 years. It was the 08-09 season, when Naslund, Linden and Morrison left, that the current core of Henrik, Daniel, Kessler and Luongo took over the core roles as a whole. That is how Vancouver built their current core, by bringing them up behind another solid foundation without just blowing up the entire team, then adding pieces as other pieces left until the foundation is where it currently sits. Funny how they did it without a blowup. If they get Baertschi on the team next year, he can play 3 or 4 years behind Tanguay, Backlund and Horak are currently under development behind the current core. Most of Vancouver's pieces last year were signed as FA's or traded for. The top drafted and developed players were obviously Henrik, Daniel, Kesler, Raymond and Edler.

Looks to me like Calgary is following an already proven path. Toronto has been working on this same path over the past few years under Burke and oddly enough it seems to be working.

Be patient. Watch how the system flows and moves. Calgary is only a few draft pieces short of accomplishing the same thing. It took the Sedin's over 10 years to reach the cup final. Backlund, Horak and Baertschi are just starting out. Lot's of time to develop a new foundation without first breaking the current one.

[kehatch]

As for what pieces does Calgary have that could / would be core pieces in 4 years?

I will do better than just list the players I will even put them in slots (without any trades)

Baertschi / Backlund / ??

Tanguay / Horak / Iginla

Ferland / Reinhart / Nemisz

Bancks / Bouma / ??

Giordano / ??

Bouwmeester / ??

Brodie / ??

Wotherspoon and Ramage will likely be slotted in somewhere.

Irving / Karlsson

Barring a tremendous amount of luck on Calgary's part that isn't a winning hockey team.

While these players (other than Backlund and Horak being NHL capable) are not guaranteed, they are showing the potential to fit these roles. Whether that comes to fruition or not is the same as any other team assembling youngsters and hoping they succeed.

No it isn't. You have four experienced NHLers on your roster combined with a bunch of low drafed players that you are expecting to develop into solid guys on a playoff competitive team. And outside of Giordano none of them are projected to be superstars or core players to develop a club around. You are being naively optimistic.

talking about a changing core in 4 years, you need to realize that any core players any team has right now could easily be gone in 4 years whether due to trades, contract issues, new prospects playing better etc. I doubt any team in the league who has had a core for more than 2 years will have the same core 4 years from now.

Clubs are signing their core players to long term contracts regularly. Besides, if you expect that the Flames can survive with what they have for another four years then your again being naively optimistic.

Calgary does not have to blow up the current team in order to look at changing the core 4 or 5 years from now. The only reason you blow up the team now is to intentionally tank in order to draft higher. Anytime you are drafting or trading players, you are hoping that you can create a foundation out of them and build around them in the future. That is what sports is all about. THERE ARE NO GUARANTEES that blowing up the team will produce different results.

The Flames have missed the playoffs for two seasons. Despite last seasons dreadful start they are actually a point below last seasons pace. That is with a tremendously favorable schedule. The Flames haven't looked good, even in their wins. Change the core in 4-years or 5 years? The Flames are in trouble now and are not going to rectify the situation with a couple of mid first round picks.

This discussion only continues to discuss the same issues that we have all over. We do not have a replacement on right wing for Iginla on the top line. We lack right handed D men (other than Ramage, Henry and Babchuk under the age of 30 who might actually be able to play). If Backlund, Horak or Reinhart can play #1 centre then we will likely have very solid centremen in 4 years. RIght now I would say that in our system we have 3 #2 centremen (Horak, Backlund, Reinhart), Bouma might be in that group as well but is definitely a 3rd line possibility. I am not counting Byron, Granlund, Wahl or Gaudreau who could all make the NHL. The issue is that we don't have a projected #1 centre in the system or a higher level #4 centre (Could argue Bouma, Wahl or Cameron) while the player who best fits 4th line centre is Patterson but for all intents and purposes he doesn't seem to be progressing enough to make the NHL.

The Flames are in a situation right now where they have the players and talent (when they use it) to be a competitive team for playoff positions at least and can slowly bring up a couple of prospects at a time to fill outgoing positions and continue to remain competitive.

The Flames don't have a playoff contending team and are a far ways off from a couple of prospects from being truly competitive.

If you expect the Flames to push for a cup this year, then yes they need to move some pieces right now. Blowing it up and starting with skilled players who may not be a foundation (I think Heatley is very talented but I don't think I would want him as a foundational piece) is less appealing to me than having Iginla, Kiprusoff, Giordano, Bouwmeester, Jokinen, Glencross, Horak, Backlund, Karlsson and Stempniak (for his ability to help rookies) with other players mixed in. This may not be a cup winning lineup without significant support pieces but it is a solid foundation.

I already said my peice on those players. Outside of Giordano none of them are players to build a team around. They are support players that supplement a decent core. And I don't expect them to win a Stanley Cup this season. But if we are going to loose I would rather stop wasting time and assets and start focusing on putting together a team for tomorrow.

Vancouver's foundation of the Sedin's and others came by involving them in the team while the previous foundation was still in place so that when they took over, they would be solid. Bertuzzi, Morrison, Naslund as the top line, Linden in the leadership role. They played behind the BMN line for 5 years before taking over. Linden was the leadership for their first 7 years. Kesler first came on the scene in 03-04 and didn't really make an impact on the team until 07-08 (his 4th season) when he got his first 20 goal season. He was tied for 4th on the team with a whopping 37 points. Luongo, Kessler, the Sedins and others have been with the team since 06-07 (The year Luongo joined) and it took them until their 4th season as a core to reach the Stanley Cup Final. Through that 06-07 campaign and 07-08, Linden, Naslund and Morrison were still considered part of the core as they had been the previous 7 years. It was the 08-09 season, when Naslund, Linden and Morrison left, that the current core of Henrik, Daniel, Kessler and Luongo took over the core roles as a whole. That is how Vancouver built their current core, by bringing them up behind another solid foundation without just blowing up the entire team, then adding pieces as other pieces left until the foundation is where it currently sits. Funny how they did it without a blowup. If they get Baertschi on the team next year, he can play 3 or 4 years behind Tanguay, Backlund and Horak are currently under development behind the current core. Most of Vancouver's pieces last year were signed as FA's or traded for. The top drafted and developed players were obviously Henrik, Daniel, Kesler, Raymond and Edler.

If you have young players and 2 and 3 overall draft picks you can afford to keep your prior core. If you don't you can't. The Flames don't.

Looks to me like Calgary is following an already proven path. Toronto has been working on this same path over the past few years under Burke and oddly enough it seems to be working.

Toronto's "path" took longer, was infinitely more frustrating, and is far from proving to be working. It is an example of what we don't want to do.

Be patient. Watch how the system flows and moves. Calgary is only a few draft pieces short of accomplishing the same thing. It took the Sedin's over 10 years to reach the cup final. Backlund, Horak and Baertschi are just starting out. Lot's of time to develop a new foundation without first breaking the current one.

This is your problem. Backlund is not Sedin. Horak is not Sedin. You are overvaluing the Flames prospects to such a degree that your objectivity on the Flames current state is non existent.

[Flyerfan52]

If you have young players and 2 and 3 overall draft picks you can afford to keep your prior core. If you don't you can't. The Flames don't.

Remember what it took to get that #2, Vancouver already had the #3 but to add the other 1/2 of the twins Burke did a lot of fancy footwork & traded McCabe (@ the time an up & comer [part of the return for Linden]), a 1st & 2-3rds).

The Sedins were determined to stay together to such a degree that their agent was coming up with options that would keep them out of the NHL for a year or 2. He'd have missed out on money in that term but was smart enough to realize he'd gain in the long run as the pair is better then either of the parts.

[bronco73]

Remember what it took to get that #2, Vancouver already had the #3 but to add the other 1/2 of the twins Burke did a lot of fancy footwork & traded McCabe (@ the time an up & comer [part of the return for Linden]), a 1st & 2-3rds).

The Sedins were determined to stay together to such a degree that their agent was coming up with options that would keep them out of the NHL for a year or 2. He'd have missed out on money in that term but was smart enough to realize he'd gain in the long run as the pair is better then either of the parts.

^ This. There was no way that the twins were going to be separated, even if it meant playing in a different league.

[bosn111]

Kehatch, I never said they WERE the Sedin's, but the point I made there was that even the Sedin's took 7 years of play in the NHL before the team was built around THEM. It is rare for a team to blow up their core and have immediate impact because of it. Typically the core becomes a foundation over time, and works best if they are developed slowly behind a previously set foundation.

I never said that Holland, Ferland, Nemisz, Bancks or Bouma would be part of the foundation, but merely that they are pieces in play who have the potential to be significant parts in an NHL club. I also qualified my whole post at the beginning by saying that I wasn't adding any trade or draft players to my list because I was directly answering the question of "who do we have right now that could be components in 4 years." I never said that WOULD be the team, but that it COULD be the team. Oddly enough I don't have a top line RW listed in my post or any of the right side D listed so that should make you think that obviously there are pieces which need to be considered. Also strange that you bash my list at year 4 which only has 3 prospects over the entire line-up in the top 6 forwards, none in the top 4 D and Irving as the starting goalie which MOST people seem to think he will be and which the team right now expects him to be. Any other prospects I have listed in the bottom 6 at year 4 which is where I believe they should be. In year 5 I moved Ferland and Holland to the 2nd line simply because in this post I didn't feel like going through more trades that people choose to not consider anyways.

Everyone seems to be slagging on Backlund not being able to be a first line centre without giving him a shot. I see Backlund as a more naturally talented Morrison. Oddly enough as I posted earlier, Morrison was the #1 Centre in Vancouver for years with Bertuzzi and Naslund including 3 straight 20+ goal and 60+ point seasons. If Backlund can put up 25+ goal and 70+ point seasons then I have no problem calling him a #1 centre.

I look at Giordano and Bouwmeester as top 2 left side D men who you can build a D core around. The ONLY knock on Bouwmeester is his play to salary ratio. In 4 years his contract will be renegotiated and will be a fair bit lower based on his output. Still a top 4 d man but not a star. Horak is proving to be a solid lock at 2/3 centre, Backlund could be the #1 and Baertschi on the top wing. Therefore the main pieces in the core 4 years from now which are already here would be

Baertschi

Backlund

Horak

Giordano

Bouwmeester

Irving.

This happens as the transition year while Iginla and Tanguay are still there who, along with Bouwmeester and Giordano, have formed the old core to that point.

1LW

1C

2C

1LD

2LD

G

To complete the core you need to add

1RW

1RD

2RD

This gives you a 9 man core to build around. How you get the other players is drafting, UFA signings or trades. I said outright that we are missing those players to form the core and that if Backlund really is only a very good #2C then we would still need a #1.

I am not blind to the current state. I think the team could and should be a playoff team but they have mental issues which keep them from succeeding. Unlike other people willing to judge the team after the first 4 games and start calling for immediate changes because of the losing, I have taken a more systematic approach and think of timing and development. You took offence to me about hoping for potential while all kinds of people call for Turris to be grabbed because he will be our #1 centre.

Unlike many people, I believe that developing a solid team where the core actually works takes time. I have suggested trades which people seem to not like for whatever reason. My trades address the needs of this team and others. Makes all teams in the trades better. I am not saying that changes don't need to be made obviously but I don't see a way in which many people could see the Flames competing for the Stanley cup this year. Kehatch you especially since it seems in your mind that we don't even have the pieces to move in order to get the pieces we need to create a cup competing team.

You call me blindly naive because I think that in 4 years, without making big sweeping changes we can stay competitive throughout and come out with a solid change while your wish to blow up the team will only result in a super team 4 years from now. Connor is in the same boat as you. The whole point is, it has been argued ad nauseum, that DRAFTING AND PROSPECTS ARE NEVER GUARANTEES. To rebuild like the Oilers is not a guarantee. We tried that in the 90's with the "young guns". Didn't work then. Hasn't really worked for the Islanders. Sure the Oilers are looking good at the moment but when was the last time THEY made the playoffs? There is no guarantee that they will keep going strong. There is more than 1 option out there and while you both seem to believe that a full blow up / rebuild situation is necessary (though almost impossible with all of the NMC / NTC contracts) many fans like myself are not willing to have a fire sale and sit at the bottom of the league for 3 years or more.

I do believe in moving players who don't fit the system (Stajan, Hagman, Bourque, Babchuk, Morrison and even Bouwmeester). Calgary is not a run and gun team and these players work best in those systems not the solid defence while jumping on opportunities. This is Calgary's biggest issue as they have these players who do not work in the mold Sutter wants them to play (and they end up the the dog house) but at the same time Calgary does not have the right mix to be a run and gun team. On D Bouwmeester, Babchuk and Brodie would be the only ones (definitely not Sarich, Hannan, Butler, Smith, Giordano), Or the forwards Tanguay, Iginla, Stajan, Hagman, Bourque would handle this well, maybe even Glencross and Jokinen but the supporting cast just isn't there and most of these forwards don't backcheck hard enough to be successful in the run and gun.

The Flames need to choose whether or not they will stay with the Sutter model and bring in the RIGHT players for this system or change the system and update the players with the correct mold for that system. A full blow up is not needed, they just need to decide what they are actually doing.

[kehatch]

@Bosn111

Baertschi

Backlund

Horak

Giordano

Bouwmeester

Irving

That isn't a solid core.

Look at any team in the NHL that is a top contender. List there core players and put it against the list. If you are honest and objective you have to admit that list doesn't compete.

Is it possible that Backund or Baertschi progresses to the point that they can be considered part of a teams foundation? Sure. But it is foolhardy to expect that. Is it possible Irving gets there? Sure. But at this point he has even shown he will be a competent starter in the NHL. I am not sure why fans are so infatuated with Horak. The fact that he has made the NHL is great for him. But there is nothing in his play that identifies him as a future core player. Hopefully he does turn into Datsyuk. But I am not holding my breath.

Optimism is great. Go with it. But Jay Feaster doesn't have the luxury of foolhardy optimism. He needs to be practical and play the odds.

As for your bolded / all capped repeated statement that building through the draft isn't a guarantee. Of course it isn't. But it is commonly the most effective option. At least for teams not constrained by a low budget. And for the Flames, a team with few assets and one of the oldest rosters in the league, it may be the only practical choice remaining.

[calgaryboy12]

Is the "injection of youth" a sign of a rebuild?

[yukonwolf]

Is the "injection of youth" a sign of a rebuild?

No, its a sign that says we have injuries. Byron was brought up because BMo is on the IR and Brodie for Babchuk who is also on IR.

[bosn111]

Yukon, Byron coming up has nothing to do with Morrison going on the IR. Backlund being ready to play washes out the whole Morrison on IR issue. Morrison out, Backlund in = wash. Babchuk out, Brodie in makes sense that is directly correlated. Hagman (LW) on waivers and Byron (Left hand shot) is the transition there for Byron, not Morrison. It looks more like a money move to me, and maybe trying to inject energy by using a player who fits the Sutter system better than Hagman does.

Showcasing talent? trying to have Hagman gone for nothing? don't know. We will see over the next week or so.

[ConnorFutureGM]

To ConnorFutureGM

Ok, apparently you are one of those individuals who underrates Flames, overrates other players and does not take into team needs versus what teams have. Nor do you account for the end of contracts. You also do not account for the potential trading partners and what other teams had to offer.

1 player alone does not necessarily make the team great. Ottawa needs more than 1 player. The point of the Ottawa trade is that IT STARTS THE IMPROVEMENT. Ottawa DOES NOT have a #2 centre, a role which Stajan (signed for 2 more years at low actual dollars compared to cap hit) would actually fill nicely. The reason Stajan doesn't fit in Calgary is that he is not a #1 centre, Jokinen is a better #2 centre and Calgary has Backlund and Horak who can play 3rd line as well or better than Stajan. I have said before that the only reason to trade Stajan is that he doesn't have a place on THIS team based on depth. Stajan and Moss definitely improve Ottawa immediately and all they really give up is a 4th line centre and a couple of draft picks in 2 separate years (a 2nd and then likely a 4th or 5th depending on how the conditional pick is set up). If someone offers you 2 proven 2nd line caliber players for a 4th liner, a 2nd round pick and a 4th round pick that you turn them down?

If Boston makes the trade, they still have Bergeron and Seguin as their 1-2 down the centre. Krejci becomes a spare part. Krejci will be looking for a raise after the season (becoming RFA) and with his numbers he is looking, I would guess, in the 5 million range. Basically that gives you a consideration of why I picked him. I would be fine with Bergeron instead, but Boston has him locked up for another 2 years after this season for $5 million per season. Bourque is cheaper than Bergeron on right wing and provides that sniper on the right. As I put in my lineup for Boston with this trade, I left Savard right out, they would have a second line of Lucic (fairly all around), Bergeron (A great passer with solid scoring as well) and Bourque (A sniper). Who does Boston have that is better than Hagman to play 3rd line wing? Paille has never scored over 20 goals or 40 points (he also only played 43 games last season), neither have Pouliot or Thorton. Hagman has scored 20+ goals 3 times, 40+ points twice and is a UFA after the season so they have a choice to re-sign him.

Right now Boston has Krejci, Bergeron, Seguin, Lucic, Horton, Marchand as their top 6, Kelly, Peverly, Campbell, Thorton, Paille, Pouliot and Caron to round out their bottom 6. Hagman is better than the Majority of their current bottom 6, Bourque is much better than any of their bottom 6 and provides a solid spot in the top 6. Move 1 top 6 player you have extra of in that position and a top 4 D man (the hand doesn't affect Boston based on their make up while it does affect Calgary, they still have Corvo, McQuaid and Kampfer who are right handed shots considering McQuaid at 25 in 67 games last year had 3 goals, 12 assists and a +30 in the regular season 4 assists and a plus 8 in 23 playoff games last season) for another top 6 in a position you are short on while adding a talented wing (could be top 6) to your bottom 6, a solid D prospect who is projected as a 4/5 D man and 2 draft picks looks pretty good to me and I am sure most people would agree.

Remember that Krejci and Boychuk are both looking for a raise after the season. The conditional pick would be based specifically on the resigning of the players. Bourque is signed long term. If both Krejci and Boychuk re-sign then you make it a 2nd rounder. If you want to put that into draft pick terms then I would say you would be trading a 1st (Krejci, was actually drafted 2nd round) and a 2nd (Boychuk) for a 2nd (Bourque), a 2nd (conditional), a 3rd (Hagman) and a 3rd. Or a 1st for a 2nd and 2 3rd's + a straight across.

Both trades address issues on all 3 of the teams and looks at what assets each team has, not just Calgary. If it makes you more happy, make the Ottawa trade first and use that 2nd round pick instead of the third if thats what you are worried about. It really makes no difference to me.

it seems you were quite off the mark om Hagman's value. Definitely not a 3rd.

[bosn111]

Clearing waivers does not always mean a complete lack of interest. Sometimes it has to do with contract numbers and salary. Taking on 3 mil salary without dumping any can be difficult. I will admit that a 3rd may be high. We will wait and see what happens if Hagman goes on re-entry waivers.

[kehatch]

Clearing waivers does not always mean a complete lack of interest. Sometimes it has to do with contract numbers and salary. Taking on 3 mil salary without dumping any can be difficult. I will admit that a 3rd may be high. We will wait and see what happens if Hagman goes on re-entry waivers.

I am sure Feaster attempted to trade him before putting him and his 3 million on waivers. Your not getting a pick back. You might get another unattractive contract back. That is about it.