Oilers

[DirtyDeeds]

There is a reason that the Nucks did not want to trade Schneider within the Division, even if the return was better...

 

I have played in goal for a long time, and still do...   My opinion is that Schneider is the better tender when compared to Dubnyk, and it seems a lot of people share that opinion...

 

Hell, the Nucks even chose Schneider over Luongo on a number of occasions, including during the playoffs when all the cards were on the table...

 

I just can`t see them having played Dubnyk over Luongo if that had been an option for them...   and I just can`t see how anyone could...   So if you are really trying to say that you see Dubnyk as being comparable to Schneider, that just does not give the impression that you have any confidence in Luongo...   But as a non-Nuck fan that is not a bad thing either...   We are just glad that it was Schneider that got traded, and not Lou...   Playoff jitters aside, that albatross of a contract is a bonus...  

and there is good reason why the Oilers would put in a big offer on Schneider. They felt he was going to be an upgrade.

 

DL:

There is no way DD is same quality goaltender that Schneider is especially at this stage of their developement. You can speculate all you want DL that DD might have progressed better under a better team but really??? what crystal ball are you using? You can only think it might be so..there is no possible way to prove it and there is no historical evidence to suggest otherwise..

 

Bronco

 

but wins/losses are equally attributed to the team playing in front of him

sry but so is shots, which you have often held up as a guage from the high number DD faced last year. There are few goalie stats that isn't heavily influenced by the team.

 

If Sv %  was a great indicator for performance of a goaltender, then it would likely be the stat used to hand out either the Vesina or the Jennings trophies. It isn't.

Jennings is fewest goals allowed and Vesina is a vote by GM's on who is "adjudged to be the best at this position".

[DirtyDeeds]

Those rankings mean very little.  

 

Dubnyk is on equal plane as Cory Schneider.... and Schneider is lauded as being this future great #1.  Difference?  Teams in front of them. 

Dubnyk has the skillset to be just as good.

 

..........................

ESPN has Fasth at 7th? ahead of Quick? ahead of Andesron?  Scrivens at 15th?  Am I to assume you agree with them?

ESPN has Niemi at 6th while the NHL has him at 17th? Anderson at 7th while NHL has him at 19th?

 Not sure what you are getting at. What does Fasth or Quick have to do with DD?

 

Any fool can try to do show the ratings are skewed by attempting to show they have some others out of place but your thinking is defective.

 

I only showed those rankings to show DD is not anywhere near an elite or great goaltender. The people who do the rankings show pretty much the same thing.

 

You couldn't even bother to bring your own ratings to show you put some thought into it, instead resort to cutting down others who put in an effort. Hell you didn't even bother to find someones rankings that showed anything like you think is the right spot.

 

Funny how you think you are right yet credible places the NHL must be wrong.... Sure they are......

[DL44]

and there is good reason why the Oilers would put in a big offer on Schneider. They felt he was going to be an upgrade.

DL:

There is no way DD is same quality goaltender that Schneider is especially at this stage of their developement. You can speculate all you want DL that DD might have progressed better under a better team but really??? what crystal ball are you using? You can only think it might be so..there is no possible way to prove it and there is no historical evidence to suggest otherwise..

Bronco

sry but so is shots, which you have often held up as a guage from the high number DD faced last year. There are few goalie stats that isn't heavily influenced by the team.

If Sv % was a great indicator for performance of a goaltender, then it would likely be the stat used to hand out either the Vesina or the Jennings trophies. It isn't.

Jennings is fewest goals allowed and Vesina is a vote by GM's on who is "adjudged to be the best at this position".

Flaw in logic... Last yr's vezina winner, the goalie adjudged to be the besT at his position... Was 7th in the league in wins... But 2nd in save percentage.

I.e. one stat is basically considered more accurate as representing of individual strength and skill.

As for Schneider v Dubnyk... All you have to do go back 2 mere yrs and look at exactly how their careers compared statistically... Going back to draft position... It was almost eerie.

In terms of using the rankings to prove something... I was simply showing how pointless that endeavor was since the referenced lists are basically all bs and agenda driven.. Not to mention at least one was outdated by a yr. the examples specifically noted were the examples that explicit and screamed " I'm just summer filler, don't even waste your time reading me".

[bronco73]

and there is good reason why the Oilers would put in a big offer on Schneider. They felt he was going to be an upgrade.

 

Bronco

 

sry but so is shots, which you have often held up as a guage from the high number DD faced last year. There are few goalie stats that isn't heavily influenced by the team.

 

If Sv %  was a great indicator for performance of a goaltender, then it would likely be the stat used to hand out either the Vesina or the Jennings trophies. It isn't.

Jennings is fewest goals allowed and Vesina is a vote by GM's on who is "adjudged to be the best at this position".

I viewed the attempt for Schneider as a bad choice, there were issues with the team that needed far more attention. Schneider would have definitely been an upgrade (how much of an upgrade is debatable), but that isn't the point.  The point is that the team had areas that were in far greater need of fixing than the goaltending.

 

I have never used shots against a goaltender to gauge a goaltenders abilities.  I have used save percentage, the comparison of how many of those shots faced that are actually stopped against those that get behind him.  The reason being, like you said, save percentage has the least bearing on what the team in front of him does, it is the one stat that is the goaltenders uninfluenced own. 

 

The awarding of the Vezina, Jennings, etc are all subjective, handed out by individuals that may be biased and are based quite often more on the performance of the entire team than the individual.  Sorry but I will take the goaltender that stops the greatest percentage of shots he faces any day of the week.  Think of it this way, team 1 is a horrible team with a goalie that has a high save percentage.  Team 2 is a highly skilled team that has a poor save percentage.  Switch the two teams goaltenders for a season... which one will look better at the end of the year?

[DL44]

I viewed the attempt for Schneider as a bad choice, there were issues with the team that needed far more attention. Schneider would have definitely been an upgrade (how much of an upgrade is debatable), but that isn't the point.  The point is that the team had areas that were in far greater need of fixing than the goaltending.

 

I have never used shots against a goaltender to gauge a goaltenders abilities.  I have used save percentage, the comparison of how many of those shots faced that are actually stopped against those that get behind him.  The reason being, like you said, save percentage has the least bearing on what the team in front of him does, it is the one stat that is the goaltenders uninfluenced own. 

 

The awarding of the Vezina, Jennings, etc are all subjective, handed out by individuals that may be biased and are based quite often more on the performance of the entire team than the individual.  Sorry but I will take the goaltender that stops the greatest percentage of shots he faces any day of the week.  Think of it this way, team 1 is a horrible team with a goalie that has a high save percentage.  Team 2 is a highly skilled team that has a poor save percentage.  Switch the two teams goaltenders for a season... which one will look better at the end of the year?

Or... Hasek vs Brodeur/Roy...

I take prime Hasek over any in History...

[DirtyDeeds]

I viewed the attempt for Schneider as a bad choice, there were issues with the team that needed far more attention. Schneider would have definitely been an upgrade (how much of an upgrade is debatable), but that isn't the point.  The point is that the team had areas that were in far greater need of fixing than the goaltending.

 

I have never used shots against a goaltender to gauge a goaltenders abilities.  I have used save percentage, the comparison of how many of those shots faced that are actually stopped against those that get behind him.  The reason being, like you said, save percentage has the least bearing on what the team in front of him does, it is the one stat that is the goaltenders uninfluenced own. 

 

The awarding of the Vezina, Jennings, etc are all subjective, handed out by individuals that may be biased and are based quite often more on the performance of the entire team than the individual.  Sorry but I will take the goaltender that stops the greatest percentage of shots he faces any day of the week.  Think of it this way, team 1 is a horrible team with a goalie that has a high save percentage.  Team 2 is a highly skilled team that has a poor save percentage.  Switch the two teams goaltenders for a season... which one will look better at the end of the year?

Then this below must be that other Bronco73 guy talking about the number of pucks a goaltender faces aloing with his Sv% meaning the goalie wasn't a problem.

 

 

Which I believe to be actually one of the strongest aspects of the team.  When you have a goalie that is in the leagues top 5 for shots against (just checked, he was sixth) yet still has an impressive .920 save percentage you gotta realize that your goaltending is not the problem.  There are several in our forum that want Dubnyk replaced, but the guy is solid.  We have to fix the real reason we get scored on by getting the opponents shot totals down to at least middle of the pack.  This shooting gallery thing is getting rather tiring to watch.

He even uses your avatar icon...

[bronco73]

Then this below must be that other Bronco73 guy talking about the number of pucks a goaltender faces aloing with his Sv% meaning the goalie wasn't a problem.

He even uses your avatar icon...

Yes, and even that statement that you searched out was to illustrate that he has a high save percentage despite his team allowing a very high number of shots against him. I'm not sure why you chose to omit the bulk of that post, but the entire post clearly shows that I was defending Dubnyk at that time for being a good goaltender because of his save percentage. Even that snippet you posted shows that I am accusing the team in front of him of being bad by allowing the shots and the guy in net still looking good because of his sv%

[conundrumed]

I don't see them turning around right away and giving Gagner the same contract they worked so hard to get rid of in Horcoff.

 

In other words, they're probably going to give Gagner what he wants.

 

They've committed an additional $2.3mil in Perron for Paajarvi.

I really don't like that trade, at all, as an Oilers hater.

Perron sent out of Hitchcock hockey to Edmonton of all places, to cut loose.

Of all the players I could think of, please god, not this.one.

I believe Perron was an emerging star winger in the league prior to the massive concussion season lost.

If he is fully recovered and back to normal, I really don't like this trade.

So if Perron turns out to be a hit, which is a very real possibility, he'll be wanting a raise over his $3.8 after next season.

Kinda flying by the seat of their pants aren't they...

 

They'll give Gagner what he wants, but the saga will continue.

[DirtyDeeds]

Yes, and even that statement that you searched out was to illustrate that he has a high save percentage despite his team allowing a very high number of shots against him. I'm not sure why you chose to omit the bulk of that post, but the entire post clearly shows that I was defending Dubnyk at that time for being a good goaltender because of his save percentage. Even that snippet you posted shows that I am accusing the team in front of him of being bad by allowing the shots and the guy in net still looking good because of his sv%

Was there any reason to highlight your whole/ remainder of that post??

 

I didn't take a partial comment or a partial sentance and linked the whole paragraph. I highlighted the whole sentence that pertained to the point I was trying to make. "That you used shots against DD as another indicator that he was a great goaltender".

 

The rest of that post had nothing to do with shots he faced or sv% and only had minor comments on DD.

[bronco73]

Was there any reason to highlight your whole/ remainder of that post??

 

I didn't take a partial comment or a partial sentance and linked the whole paragraph. I highlighted the whole sentence that pertained to the point I was trying to make. "That you used shots against DD as another indicator that he was a great goaltender".

 

The rest of that post had nothing to do with shots he faced or sv% and only had minor comments on DD.

OK, no sense arguing over it My intent in the post was to say that it was the team that bled shots, and Dubnyks good save percentage is what kept them out of drafting first or second overall this year.  My bad for wording it so confusingly. 

 

I aint no english major!

[conundrumed]

Although I realize size and D are part of Edmonton's struggles, what bonafide goaltending can do for you can't be overlooked.

Everyone had a very low opinion of Columbus, but the addition of Bobrovsky made them a team that barely missed the playoffs.

The examples are countless, solid goaltending turns those 2-1, 3-2, 4-3 losses into wins.

You only have to look at your very own Roloson, turning the close games into more wins than losses is all you can hope for. Roloson also faced mega-shots per night.

Dubnyk's comparison has been Khabi and AHL goalies. The Oil, of all places, due to Ranford and Joseph, need to grasp what you want your goaltending to do.

I remember when you traded Joseph to TO. My bro's a rabid case of leafitis, I told him at the time, "well, you're a playoff team now".

He laughed bitterly that I didn't understand how bad they actually are.

Sure enough, playoff team on Joseph's back.

It is those 1 goal records that will decide your fate, and I will be shocked if DD is your guy.

I question a lot of his abilities.

1. He doesn't know his crease well enough for his size (ala Luongo)

2. His glove-speed is suspect

3. He doesn't absorb shots well enough, causing scrambles, and back to #1

4. Too long of team slumps that he can't help them out of

 

#4 is a big one for me. There are goalies that will end it single-handedly. Dubnyk has shown far too often that he can't.

It's all put on the team, and goes from bad to worse.

NHL-calibre goalies don't let that happen, because it deflates a team and all surrounding it.

Sometimes your goalie has to be thee guy, and Dubnyk never exudes that, for me at least.

Even Khabibulin shows he remembers that from time to time.

 

Perhaps I'm wrong about Dubnyk, but making an unsuccessful attempt at Bernier shows the Oilers brass are considering the same thing.

I don't want to run Dubnyk into the dirt, because let's face it, he's been whipped like a dog through the KLowe tragedy years...

Several other teams might have developed him rather than tie him to the whipping post.

What is it going to take?

How many are you going to tie to the whipping post?

Is RNH next, or is it going to be Hall's repetitive injury problems?

How many need to fall into obscurity?

It's a pox on the league, why would anyone choose Edmonton?

Because you get drafted and it's all caution to the wind, go ahead kid, be a superstar?

Straight to the flipping wolves.

 

What's it going to take Oiler fans?

Watching MacTavish and Lowe recite how many cup rings they have was an utter disgrace to all of the NHL.

If I heard Ken Holland or even Scotty Bowman say that, I think it would be disgraceful and in very poor taste.

But of course they wouldn't say that, because they're grateful, thankful and respectful for their accomplishments.

This little act is obscenely arrogant.

What's with Lowe? Is he always like this?

Build "Fire Lowe" signs, the hockey gods hate you for him I'd guess.

My guess: you'll lead the league in lost time injury.

Excuses will never end.

If you're the Prez, and want to flaunt "all but one person in the entire league has more rings than I do", why don't we take you to task.

How many rings do you have not playing on Wayne Gretzky or Mark Messiers team?

Right. Coach, Manager, POHO?

Where is your resume on that?

Managers make plays for RFA's, it happens, Federov was perhaps the first star offered big money, that Detroit matched.

It happens, and when it happens, not much is said. Weber to Philly anyone? Not much is said.

Burke on Lowe wasn't about Penner methinks. No outbusts are on record for an RFA offering.

It was personal.

Lowe is not respected, and this little "if I can add something here" interview shows why.

What are you guys doing up there? You've got all of these young guys force-fed like Gagner and simply expect the frigging 18 year olds figure it out?

Where's Lowe and his Cup rings to say, "hey maybe they need to bulk up a bit" or anything remote to that.

"Hey he's injured, 30 year olds hit frigging harder than 20 year olds". How shocking.

How do you keep this guy alive, he's killing your team, your prospects...how far do you let this one fall?

It's a disgrace to a league that is about player safety and development, not someone's ego taking precedence.

With Kevin Lowe at the helm, I'd say you've disgraced this league enough, from throwing developing teenagers into the fire to having full respite for no matter how bad this team actually is.

It's a disgrace that the rest of us watch, and wonder how you guys stay positive.

God knows MacT has a wealth of managing background, I'd be willing to bet some of his deals were already set up for him.

We'll see from here on in.

[Carty]

Just happened to notice something of interest...   Despite the handful of young guns, the Oilers are the 5th oldest team in the league with an average age of 28.3 years...

[conundrumed]

Although I realize size and D are part of Edmonton's struggles, what bonafide goaltending can do for you can't be overlooked.

Everyone had a very low opinion of Columbus, but the addition of Bobrovsky made them a team that barely missed the playoffs.

The examples are countless, solid goaltending turns those 2-1, 3-2, 4-3 losses into wins.

You only have to look at your very own Roloson, turning the close games into more wins than losses is all you can hope for. Roloson also faced mega-shots per night.

Dubnyk's comparison has been Khabi and AHL goalies. The Oil, of all places, due to Ranford and Joseph, need to grasp what you want your goaltending to do.

I remember when you traded Joseph to TO. My bro's a rabid case of leafitis, I told him at the time, "well, you're a playoff team now".

He laughed bitterly that I didn't understand how bad they actually are.

Sure enough, playoff team on Joseph's back.

It is those 1 goal records that will decide your fate, and I will be shocked if DD is your guy.

I question a lot of his abilities.

1. He doesn't know his crease well enough for his size (ala Luongo)

2. His glove-speed is suspect

3. He doesn't absorb shots well enough, causing scrambles, and back to #1

4. Too long of team slumps that he can't help them out of

 

#4 is a big one for me. There are goalies that will end it single-handedly. Dubnyk has shown far too often that he can't.

It's all put on the team, and goes from bad to worse.

NHL-calibre goalies don't let that happen, because it deflates a team and all surrounding it.

Sometimes your goalie has to be thee guy, and Dubnyk never exudes that, for me at least.

Even Khabibulin shows he remembers that from time to time.

 

Perhaps I'm wrong about Dubnyk, but making an unsuccessful attempt at Bernier shows the Oilers brass are considering the same thing.

I don't want to run Dubnyk into the dirt, because let's face it, he's been whipped like a dog through the KLowe tragedy years...

Several other teams might have developed him rather than tie him to the whipping post.

What is it going to take?

How many are you going to tie to the whipping post?

Is RNH next, or is it going to be Hall's repetitive injury problems?

How many need to fall into obscurity?

It's a pox on the league, why would anyone choose Edmonton?

Because you get drafted and it's all caution to the wind, go ahead kid, be a superstar?

Straight to the flipping wolves.

 

What's it going to take Oiler fans?

Watching MacTavish and Lowe recite how many cup rings they have was an utter disgrace to all of the NHL.

If I heard Ken Holland or even Scotty Bowman say that, I think it would be disgraceful and in very poor taste.

But of course they wouldn't say that, because they're grateful, thankful and respectful for their accomplishments.

This little act is obscenely arrogant.

What's with Lowe? Is he always like this?

Build "Fire Lowe" signs, the hockey gods hate you for him I'd guess.

My guess: you'll lead the league in lost time injury.

Excuses will never end.

If you're the Prez, and want to flaunt "all but one person in the entire league has more rings than I do", why don't we take you to task.

How many rings do you have not playing on Wayne Gretzky or Mark Messiers team?

Right. Coach, Manager, POHO?

Where is your resume on that?

Managers make plays for RFA's, it happens, Federov was perhaps the first star offered big money, that Detroit matched.

It happens, and when it happens, not much is said. Weber to Philly anyone? Not much is said.

Burke on Lowe wasn't about Penner methinks. No outbusts are on record for an RFA offering.

It was personal.

Lowe is not respected, and this little "if I can add something here" interview shows why.

What are you guys doing up there? You've got all of these young guys force-fed like Gagner and simply expect the frigging 18 year olds figure it out?

Where's Lowe and his Cup rings to say, "hey maybe they need to bulk up a bit" or anything remote to that.

"Hey he's injured, 30 year olds hit frigging harder than 20 year olds". How shocking.

How do you keep this guy alive, he's killing your team, your prospects...how far do you let this one fall?

It's a disgrace to a league that is about player safety and development, not someone's ego taking precedence.

With Kevin Lowe at the helm, I'd say you've disgraced this league enough, from throwing developing teenagers into the fire to having full respite for no matter how bad this team actually is.

It's a disgrace that the rest of us watch, and wonder how you guys stay positive.

God knows MacT has a wealth of managing background, I'd be willing to bet some of his deals were already set up for him.

We'll see from here on in.

 

I'm out of Connor-bait...guess he's in jail!

[DirtyDeeds]

Just happened to notice something of interest...   Despite the handful of young guns, the Oilers are the 5th oldest team in the league with an average age of 28.3 years...

Last year I tried to tell people around here the Oilers were getting older and showed them older than Calgary at the time. Some of the supposed experts here told me that doesn't matter because their "core is young"

 

 

yeah right.....

 

How much effort do we have to put forth to warn of the "Young Guns Oiler style" window is closing where they won't be so young as they are portrayed to be.

 

Another year older, passing through middle of the pack for team age and still no glimmer of playoffs.....

 

KLowe: Lets "Flog" that Oiler young gun horse a bit more see if the Oiler Fans will buy it for another year or two...

[Redslinger]

In the 2003/4 season the Flames were one of the oldest teams in the NHL.  However, the core of the team was young.  That included:

 

Iginla, Regehr, Kiprusoff, Donovan, Leopold, Lombardi, Saprykin, Reinprecht, Clark, Kobasew, Warrener, Commodore and Ferrence.

 

Sprinkled in was a smattering of older veterans like:

 

Gelinas, Simon, Conroy, McAmmond, Yelle, Oliwa and Lowry.

 

 

I can buy the argument that the core of the Oilers is young.  I don't think age is the problem with them but rather the fact that they are all smurfs who can't find their own zone with a map.

[s4xon]

I can buy the argument that the core of the Oilers is young.  I don't think age is the problem with them but rather the fact that they are all smurfs who can't find their own zone with a map.

 

aaaaahahahahahaha, it's funny you know, cause they wear blue and white in their uniforms......and......they're small.......and........you know.......it........it was funny...........

 

 

........yeah.

[Carty]

 

 

I can buy the argument that the core of the Oilers is young.  I don't think age is the problem with them but rather the fact that they are all smurfs who can't find their own zone with a map.

 

Maybe the problem is that the core is so young and they are confused and just using the wrong map...

 

[Redslinger]

I don't know what any of that means but I like it...I think.

[Carty]

I don't know what any of that means but I like it...I think.

 

It's similar to the Oilers approach for defending their own zone...   It looks like this...

 

[oillio]

It's similar to the Oilers approach for defending their own zone...   It looks like this...

 

 

we'll see who finishes higher in the standings next year.

[Carty]

we'll see who finishes higher in the standings next year.

 

I doubt that our rebuild will take as long as the "Oil Change" seems to be dragging out...   and hopefully the organization has more class than to turn the entire process into a boring tv series....

[DirtyDeeds]

we'll see who finishes higher in the standings next year.

How many years now have you Oiler Fans been saying that? What exactly is so different this year?

 

Last year the Oilers had a Poor D.

Last year thebig question: "Was DD the real Deal"?

Last year the front 6 were small and easily pushed around.

Last year you got very little help from your 3rd & 4th lines.

Last year your team barely scored 5 vs 5.

 

So where have all the big improvements come from:

 

-You still have question marks on D even if Nurse manages to make the team.

-Your Goalie hasn't proven he is going to be "the real deal" and now it is lets just give him another year? Your new GM said something along the lines of if you have to ask then he isn't...

-add to that MacT has been trying to upgrade that DD spot. You missed out on Schneider and you missed out on Bernier.

-Your top 6 Forwards just got smaller.

-Your 3rd and 4th lines are brutal, among the worst in the league.

-How is that Hemsky trade him for an upgrade coming along???

-What did you do to improve on your extremely poor 5 vs 5 goal scoring? You won't win anything on pretty much PP alone.

- You are running out of cap space and contracts to make any big changes.

 

Already spending 6th overall and only 1.3m cap room.

 

I think you have much more to worry about with your Oilers than whether than coming here trying to Troll us with your "we'll see who finishes higher in the standings next year."

 

Oh and did you mean this coming season or next season/year?? lol

[s4xon]

we'll see who finishes higher in the standings next year.

 

Ooooh.  I've been waiting to see when you'd pop up over here on the Flames boards

 

Who finishes higher in the standings is moot.  At this point in both teams' history it's about the BOA and the playoff race. The playoff race meaning a solidified annual contender, not a one hit wonder type situation. 

The expectation from around the NHL and Flames fans is that the Oilers SHOULD be finishing higher in the standings this season and most likely next.  If they don't, then:

1. They would be taking prospects away from the Flames future by drafting ahead of the Flames
2. The Oilers fanbase would riot.
3. The Oilers would continue to be the laughing stock of the NHL, something I am actually getting tired of.  It's Vancouver's turn, and Gillis has been doing a great job of it in the last year and a half.

[DL44]

Carty, on 09 Aug 2013 - 11:45, said:

I doubt that our rebuild will take as long as the "Oil Change" seems to be dragging out... and hopefully the organization has more class than to turn the entire process into a boring tv series....

Haven't they already renewed that for next season?

[Carty]

Haven't they already renewed that for next season?

 

Heck, I heard that they have already renewed it until 2019...