ConnorFutureGM Posted December 9, 2012 Report Share Posted December 9, 2012 Unclear on the concept - weekly prize winner Though I will cut you some slack here, Connor - you have never had a proper team model to witness and learn from On the other hand, I've seen very talentless Flames barely missing the playoffs for years running. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carty Posted December 9, 2012 Report Share Posted December 9, 2012 On the other hand, I've seen very talentless Flames barely missing the playoffs for years running. Then again... On the other side, I have seen supposedly talented Oiler teams not only miss the playoffs, but finishing at the bottom of the league in recent times... For years running... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bronco73 Posted December 9, 2012 Report Share Posted December 9, 2012 Then again... On the other side, I have seen supposedly talented Oiler teams not only miss the playoffs, but finishing at the bottom of the league in recent times... For years running... To be fair, they finished at the bottom of the league twice, not four times. And it wasn't until the drafting of Hall, Eberle, RHN that they could be considered a team having some talent. It will take time for them to become good NHL'ers of course. Before that, when your best player is Hemsky who is injured 70% of the time you are nothing even close to resembling a talented team. Talented or not, they were and are my team and I will continue to cheer for them. But it's painfully clear that they still have a ways to go before being a team that can challenge the best teams in the league. Can't deny that they are on their way up though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyerfan52 Posted December 9, 2012 Report Share Posted December 9, 2012 To be fair, they finished at the bottom of the league twice, not four times. And it wasn't until the drafting of Hall, Eberle, RHN that they could be considered a team having some talent. It will take time for them to become good NHL'ers of course. Before that, when your best player is Hemsky who is injured 70% of the time you are nothing even close to resembling a talented team. Talented or not, they were and are my team and I will continue to cheer for them. But it's painfully clear that they still have a ways to go before being a team that can challenge the best teams in the league. Can't deny that they are on their way up though. I remember in 2007-08 Gagner, Nilsson, Cogliano, Penner, Glencross, Pitkanen, Staios, Souray & Roloson among others were highly regarded as having talent. That team would have drafted 12th (Tyler Myers) had that pick not gone to the Ducks as part of the Penner OS. They did get the pick (22nd) used to take Eberle from the Pronger trade so came out of the draft well. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To me the nose dive speaks more of bad management rather then lack of talent. A few years before top notch players had no qualms about signing in Edmonton but suddenly left en masse. Even Captain Canada (Smythe) had his loyalty tested to the degree that a trade was needed. After that UFAs were reluctant to sign there & they appeared on on lists players could veto a traded to. All of that points to management. When Katz bought the team he would have been better of cleaning house & starting with a clean slate to make the Oilers a team players wanted to be a part of. Instead he either bought into the build from the gutter plan or initiated it. It's sad for a storied team like the Oilers (or NYI) to fall to such depths (@ least for those of us that witnessed their dynasty years). ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It is admirable that some of the Edmonton fans that witnessed the glory days stand by them. The younger 1s that never saw a good Oilers team have just bought into the rhetoric to the degree that they project unreasonable expectations on every draft pick. The kids will most likely be dang fine players but fitting them for HHOF jackets & rings before they've won anything is rather extreme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cross16 Posted December 9, 2012 Report Share Posted December 9, 2012 The Barons and the Heat are both microcoisms of their NHL teams. Barons have good top end talent that is young and green, but little depth on both forwrad and defence, lack toughness and have ok at best goaltending. Heat have some top end talent, not enough of it, but solid depth all throughout and very good goaltending. Difference being Heat are very well coched and Flames have not been in recent years.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyerfan52 Posted December 12, 2012 Report Share Posted December 12, 2012 Seems Katz wants to meet with current city council on Wed. to talk about the previous deal. With an upcoming election the next council might not be as open to even his original demands. The articles mention the whole arena issue is likely to become an issue that taxpayers night ask hard questions about. _______________________________________________________ As the immortal JJ said "Get it while you can". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PokernHockey Posted December 12, 2012 Report Share Posted December 12, 2012 Even Captain Canada (Smythe) had his loyalty tested to the degree that a trade was needed. All of that points to management. When Katz bought the team he would have been better of cleaning house & starting with a clean slate to make the Oilers a team players wanted to be a part of. Instead he either bought into the build from the gutter plan or initiated it. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I remember there were a lot of rumours back at the time that they traded Smyth over a 100k difference, or some other pittance. It was a number of years ago now, but that really tells you what sort of issues there must have been if a) Management would rather trade their heart and soul rather then give in 100k and B ) Smyth would hold out to that point rather then sign. Remember as well, the Flames were his publicly stated number 2 choice that summer, he clearly loved Alberta. (I still remember where I was standing when I heard that news, my buddy and I couldn't get over how funny that would have been). It's sad for a storied team like the Oilers (or NYI) to fall to such depths (@ least for those of us that witnessed their dynasty years). ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The really annoying part is for me at least the Rivalry has really fallen off due to how bad the oilers have been (after 13 wins in a row the 14th really doesn't matter much - not meant as a slight, that was truly what ran through my mind), and now that the Oil have talent, The Flames will probably not be anywhere near a contender. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConnorFutureGM Posted December 12, 2012 Report Share Posted December 12, 2012 I remember there were a lot of rumours back at the time that they traded Smyth over a 100k difference, or some other pittance. It was a number of years ago now, but that really tells you what sort of issues there must have been if a) Management would rather trade their heart and soul rather then give in 100k and B ) Smyth would hold out to that point rather then sign. Remember as well, the Flames were his publicly stated number 2 choice that summer, he clearly loved Alberta. (I still remember where I was standing when I heard that news, my buddy and I couldn't get over how funny that would have been). The really annoying part is for me at least the Rivalry has really fallen off due to how bad the oilers have been (after 13 wins in a row the 14th really doesn't matter much - not meant as a slight, that was truly what ran through my mind), and now that the Oil have talent, The Flames will probably not be anywhere near a contender. When the Oilers traded Smyth it was different ownership. That situation would have never happened if it occurred now with Katz as owner. As far as the rivalry, Oilers have been bad but it's not like the Flames have been tearing it up. We need playoff meetings to get the rivalry back and neither team has been has been fulfilling that first step. The Barons and the Heat are both microcoisms of their NHL teams. Barons have good top end talent that is young and green, but little depth on both forwrad and defence, lack toughness and have ok at best goaltending. Heat have some top end talent, not enough of it, but solid depth all throughout and very good goaltending. Difference being Heat are very well coched and Flames have not been in recent years.. An important part of development is having a strong minor league team. Most teams that have money can afford to get the all-star AHL players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C_worthy Posted December 13, 2012 Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 When the Oilers traded Smyth it was different ownership. That situation would have never happened if it occurred now with Katz as owner. The management was the same. You are not really going to claim that the Oilers ownership is that meddling are you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyerfan52 Posted December 13, 2012 Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 An interesting tidbit from WJC selection camp. Nathan MacKinnon's roommate is RNH. 1 of those things that get you going hmm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConnorFutureGM Posted December 13, 2012 Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 The management was the same. You are not really going to claim that the Oilers ownership is that meddling are you? I was not saying they were meddling. EIG ran the Oilers as an organization a lot differently than Katz. The EIG was more budget oriented and did not spend close to what Katz spends on the team. Salary wise the Oilers were close to the cap when the EIG owned the Oilers but they didn't spend nowhere near as much on the farm team, scouting and development. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C_worthy Posted December 13, 2012 Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 I was not saying they were meddling. EIG ran the Oilers as an organization a lot differently than Katz. The EIG was more budget oriented and did not spend close to what Katz spends on the team. Salary wise the Oilers were close to the cap when the EIG owned the Oilers but they didn't spend nowhere near as much on the farm team, scouting and development. Maybe not on the farm, but they spent close to the cap, whereas the Katz Oilers, to date, have not. So your argument doesn't hold water Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConnorFutureGM Posted December 13, 2012 Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 Maybe not on the farm, but they spent close to the cap, whereas the Katz Oilers, to date, have not. So your argument doesn't hold water Not correct. You drawing conclusions without taking in regard of the circumstances. There is little doubt that the Katz will spend to the cap when needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PokernHockey Posted December 13, 2012 Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 When the Oilers traded Smyth it was different ownership. That situation would have never happened if it occurred now with Katz as owner. I was not saying they were meddling. EIG ran the Oilers as an organization a lot differently than Katz. The EIG was more budget oriented and did not spend close to what Katz spends on the team. Salary wise the Oilers were close to the cap when the EIG owned the Oilers but they didn't spend nowhere near as much on the farm team, scouting and development. Not correct. You drawing conclusions without taking in regard of the circumstances. There is little doubt that the Katz will spend to the cap when needed. So if I understand your argument correctly: 1) The Oilers traded Smyth because they wouldn't give him an extra 100k 2) The ownership group is different 3)a. The old ownership group spent close to the cap on established players at the expense of finding/developing players 3)b. The new group spends more on finding and developing cheap talent (who cannot leave) at the expense of rather then on established players (although speculation is that may change) 4) Smyth was an established player 5) The management is ran by the same group that let Smyth walk, so any difference is due to ownership 6) The new ownership group (which spends less on NHL salaries), would have never let Smyth go over... salary... Me thinks someone forgot what he was arguing and couldn't see through the copper covered glasses to remember the discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConnorFutureGM Posted December 13, 2012 Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 So if I understand your argument correctly: 1) The Oilers traded Smyth because they wouldn't give him an extra 100k 2) The ownership group is different 3)a. The old ownership group spent close to the cap on established players at the expense of finding/developing players 3)b. The new group spends more on finding and developing cheap talent (who cannot leave) at the expense of rather then on established players (although speculation is that may change) 4) Smyth was an established player 5) The management is ran by the same group that let Smyth walk, so any difference is due to ownership 6) The new ownership group (which spends less on NHL salaries), would have never let Smyth go over... salary... Me thinks someone forgot what he was arguing and couldn't see through the copper covered glasses to remember the discussion. I probably didn't take the time to describe the difference in the ownerships. EIG - main goal was dollars and cents on a year to year scale with the reason becoming owners was to keep the team in Edmonton. Katz - main goal is dollars and cents on a larger scale and main reason for becoming the owner was because he was a huge fan when he was a kid. Katz has changed the spirit of the organization. He is building more of a family like organization. Oilers have been going out of their way to keep and attain good locker room guys. IMO Smyth also wanted back on the Oilers because of the change in ownership. If EIG still owned the Oilers I have my doubts that Smyth would have wanted to come back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C_worthy Posted December 13, 2012 Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 I probably didn't take the time to describe the difference in the ownerships. EIG - main goal was dollars and cents on a year to year scale with the reason becoming owners was to keep the team in Edmonton. Katz - main goal is dollars and cents on a larger scale and main reason for becoming the owner was because he was a huge fan when he was a kid. Katz has changed the spirit of the organization. He is building more of a family like organization. Oilers have been going out of their way to keep and attain good locker room guys. IMO Smyth also wanted back on the Oilers because of the change in ownership. If EIG still owned the Oilers I have my doubts that Smyth would have wanted to come back. Dude - step away from the kool-aid... holy f**k You might want to pay a bit more attention to 1) the payroll under his watch, and 2) how he has been dealing with the arena issue. You sould like he is your favourite uncle - all I am saying is you might want to take a couple breaths and re-evaluate with a more objective eye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PokernHockey Posted December 13, 2012 Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 I probably didn't take the time to describe the difference in the ownerships. EIG - main goal was dollars and cents on a year to year scale with the reason becoming owners was to keep the team in Edmonton. Katz - main goal is dollars and cents on a larger scale and main reason for becoming the owner was because he was a huge fan when he was a kid. Katz has changed the spirit of the organization. He is building more of a family like organization. Oilers have been going out of their way to keep and attain good locker room guys. IMO Smyth also wanted back on the Oilers because of the change in ownership. If EIG still owned the Oilers I have my doubts that Smyth would have wanted to come back. OK, so after you explained that the difference is... 1) The Oilers traded Smyth because they wouldn't give him an extra 100k 2) The ownership group is different 3)a. The old ownership group spent close to the cap on established players at the expense of finding/developing players 3)b. The new group spends more on finding and developing cheap talent (who cannot leave) at the expense of rather then on established players (although speculation is that may change) 4) Smyth was an established player 5) The management is ran by the same group that let Smyth walk, so any difference is due to ownership 6) The new ownership group (which spends less on NHL salaries), would have never let Smyth go over... salary... would have kept smyth based on group hugs? in no way did you explain how a team that is OK with spending to the cap let a player walk over 100k, whereas a team that has never spent to the cap would not have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConnorFutureGM Posted December 13, 2012 Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 OK, so after you explained that the difference is... in no way did you explain how a team that is OK with spending to the cap let a player walk over 100k, whereas a team that has never spent to the cap would not have. Why do you think Katz/Lowe/Tambellini aren't spending max on the cap? There's a little something in economics called diminishing returns. Check it out, Flames are guilty of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C_worthy Posted December 14, 2012 Report Share Posted December 14, 2012 Why do you think Katz/Lowe/Tambellini aren't spending max on the cap? There's a little something in economics called diminishing returns. Check it out, Flames are guilty of it. Right... so spending less = better team Keep 'em coming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bronco73 Posted December 14, 2012 Report Share Posted December 14, 2012 Seems Katz wants to meet with current city council on Wed. to talk about the previous deal. With an upcoming election the next council might not be as open to even his original demands. The articles mention the whole arena issue is likely to become an issue that taxpayers night ask hard questions about. _______________________________________________________ As the immortal JJ said "Get it while you can". from what I understand, he is willing to remove his request for an additional 6 million per annum for operating expenses. At least they are potentially getting together again, much better news for the arena than what we have seen recently. I remember there were a lot of rumours back at the time that they traded Smyth over a 100k difference, or some other pittance. It was a number of years ago now, but that really tells you what sort of issues there must have been if a) Management would rather trade their heart and soul rather then give in 100k and B ) Smyth would hold out to that point rather then sign. Remember as well, the Flames were his publicly stated number 2 choice that summer, he clearly loved Alberta. (I still remember where I was standing when I heard that news, my buddy and I couldn't get over how funny that would have been). The really annoying part is for me at least the Rivalry has really fallen off due to how bad the oilers have been (after 13 wins in a row the 14th really doesn't matter much - not meant as a slight, that was truly what ran through my mind), and now that the Oil have talent, The Flames will probably not be anywhere near a contender. Smyth wasn't even worth what they were offering him at the time, let alone what he demanded. I can't blame the team for dealing him. The Flames will still be a contender, they still have lots of talent, they have a while to go yet before bottoming out as bad as Edmonton did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bronco73 Posted December 14, 2012 Report Share Posted December 14, 2012 Dude - step away from the kool-aid... holy f**k You might want to pay a bit more attention to 1) the payroll under his watch, and 2) how he has been dealing with the arena issue. You sould like he is your favourite uncle - all I am saying is you might want to take a couple breaths and re-evaluate with a more objective eye. The problem with the Oilers not spending to the cap under Katz is partly due to the fact that they had gotten younger, a lot younger. Entry level players are subject to a maximum salary of under a million dollars (not sure of the exact number, it changes every year). Bringing in the young guys and moving the higher salary ones out means lower payroll. Also, it's pretty tough to spend to the cap when players won't even look at the team as an option. They offered boatloads of cash to countless high end talent, they just didn't want to play here. Katz and management were willing to spend, they just couldn't find anybody to willing to take Katz's money. in no way did you explain how a team that is OK with spending to the cap let a player walk over 100k, whereas a team that has never spent to the cap would not have. If I recall, the Oilers offered Smyth 5, but Smyth wanted 5.5 so it was 500k if my memory is correct. He is full of heart, but at the time 5 was a big number to be throwing around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C_worthy Posted December 14, 2012 Report Share Posted December 14, 2012 The problem with the Oilers not spending to the cap under Katz is partly due to the fact that they had gotten younger, a lot younger. Entry level players are subject to a maximum salary of under a million dollars (not sure of the exact number, it changes every year). Bringing in the young guys and moving the higher salary ones out means lower payroll. Also, it's pretty tough to spend to the cap when players won't even look at the team as an option. They offered boatloads of cash to countless high end talent, they just didn't want to play here. Katz and management were willing to spend, they just couldn't find anybody to willing to take Katz's money. If I recall, the Oilers offered Smyth 5, but Smyth wanted 5.5 so it was 500k if my memory is correct. He is full of heart, but at the time 5 was a big number to be throwing around. Revisionist history. They got younger in order to save money. Katz came in and immediately cut the budget in order to save money to pay for the purchase of the team as well as a new rink. He called it a re-build and Oiler fans swallowed it whole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConnorFutureGM Posted December 14, 2012 Report Share Posted December 14, 2012 Right... so spending less = better team Keep 'em coming Lets see; Yandle or Wideman at 5.25 Pavelski or Hudler at 4 Eberle or Cammalleri at 6 million hmmmmmm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyro Posted December 14, 2012 Report Share Posted December 14, 2012 Lets see; Yandle or Wideman at 5.25 Pavelski or Hudler at 4 Eberle or Cammalleri at 6 million hmmmmmm. Horcoff or Bergeron @ 5 million? "China Doll" Hemsky or Hossa @ 5 million? Just to note Horcoff's salary is half a million more than Bergeron's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bronco73 Posted December 14, 2012 Report Share Posted December 14, 2012 Revisionist history. They got younger in order to save money. Katz came in and immediately cut the budget in order to save money to pay for the purchase of the team as well as a new rink. He called it a re-build and Oiler fans swallowed it whole. come on C_Worthy, that's just conspiracy theory gone wild. They got younger because they lost a ton of games and picked high in the draft for kids that had already developed enough to not need time in the AHL, also they couldn't get vets to go there, and had to bring up young players to fill the lines. Older players were moved out for sure, most of whom were past their due date. Smyth, Smith, Moreau, Staios, etc. had all had their better days already behind them. It had nothing to do with saving money, period. If it was to save money, they wouldn't have offered 10 mill to Hossa, 7 to Vanek offer sheet, 4.5 to Penner offer sheet, trade offer for expensive Heatley, 4 to Jagr, 4.5 to washed up Khabibulin, 7 to disappointing Horcoff, etc. They way overpaid the players they had, and offered tons to try to lure talent there. A team that does that isn't looking to pinch pennies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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