PokernHockey Posted October 13, 2012 Report Share Posted October 13, 2012 What did I say at the beginning? I said it was close. I didn't say they were exactly even. If someone states that the Flames' defence is far and above the Oilers' it makes me question their integrity of being unbiased. The Oilers defence isn't strong and neither is the Flames'. Flames strength lies within the depth on the wings and in net. The Oilers have a decent amount of scoring upfront but Dubnyk has yet to prove himself as a starter. IMO both teams will make moves after the CBA is finalized so we aren't even dealing with finished products yet. You honestly didn't get that I was mocking your "unbiased comparison"? (Again, leaving everyone where you did) We have a better #2 who is the NHL Ironman. Your #2 has averaged half a season for the past 4 years. By the way, Whitney after 51 games was on pace for about the same number of goals and points as Jay. but yet he is great offensive force whereas Jay has regressed since coming to a far more defensive system? You also have only 5 d who you claim to be a top 6 d. even you admit we fill it out. Add to the fact that half the season you are substituting your best defenseman with a part time NHLer. You claim J. Schultz, who has NEVER played a game in the NHL is a #4. Yet you say as justification - "He will likely have a limited 5 on 5 role but a lot of time on the powerplay as he is an offensive defenceman." Most people agree he went to Edmonton to get a shot at the top four... but it wasn't because he is (proven) to be that good, its because the Edmonton top 4 is that bad. You know what most people call that... a #6d powerplay specialist. #4s play 5 on 5. they are by definition on the second D line. or do you think the top 3 are the only ones who play regular minutes? a byproduct of sucking so long is the oilers have a lot of potential, and could become a force. However, today, there D is one of the worst squads in the league. The flames no longer have one of the strongest D squads in the game, but at worst we are a middle of the pack team for our D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConnorFutureGM Posted October 13, 2012 Report Share Posted October 13, 2012 You honestly didn't get that I was mocking your "unbiased comparison"? (Again, leaving everyone where you did) We have a better #2 who is the NHL Ironman. Your #2 has averaged half a season for the past 4 years. By the way, Whitney after 51 games was on pace for about the same number of goals and points as Jay. but yet he is great offensive force whereas Jay has regressed since coming to a far more defensive system? You also have only 5 d who you claim to be a top 6 d. even you admit we fill it out. Add to the fact that half the season you are substituting your best defenseman with a part time NHLer. You claim J. Schultz, who has NEVER played a game in the NHL is a #4. Yet you say as justification - "He will likely have a limited 5 on 5 role but a lot of time on the powerplay as he is an offensive defenceman." Most people agree he went to Edmonton to get a shot at the top four... but it wasn't because he is (proven) to be that good, its because the Edmonton top 4 is that bad. You know what most people call that... a #6d powerplay specialist. #4s play 5 on 5. they are by definition on the second D line. or do you think the top 3 are the only ones who play regular minutes? a byproduct of sucking so long is the oilers have a lot of potential, and could become a force. However, today, there D is one of the worst squads in the league. The flames no longer have one of the strongest D squads in the game, but at worst we are a middle of the pack team for our D. Whitney was bad last season. If he comes back and plays at the same level he did last year, he's not close to a #2 defenceman. I'm comparing a healthy Whitney to Bouwmeester. In 2010-11 he had 27 points in the Oilers first 35 games. What's even more surprising is he only had 7 of those points in the PP. He was on pace for 47 even strength points that year. Karlsson had 50 even strength points this season. The next closest defenceman was Bieksa at 34. All I'm saying is if he comes back 100% healthy he's force. If he plays like he did last season, he's the Oilers missing 4th defenceman on my list. People in Calgary give Bouwmeester way too much credit while people outside Calgary don't give him enough. Bouwmeester is sound defensively and can neutralize almost any NHL forward but how has his game evolved over the years? He's the type of player that what you see is what you get. He gets paid to be a leader but he hasn't lead any of his teams to the playoffs ever. He would be a great compliment defenceman unfortunately he's the Flames go to defenceman and gets paid like one. Who's defence is better? A team with four #1 defenceman and four AHL level defencemen or a team with eight #4 defencemen? Some will say the former and some the latter. You assume too much. If opportunity to play on a not deep defence was his main motivator he could have stayed in Anaheim or signed in Calgary. What scouting reports say about Schultz is he's a top offensive defenceman who can skate and has reach. He has a developing defensive game. He is projected to be a better defenceman than Gardiner. Schultz is already getting points at the AHL level. My projection for Schultz is 40 points. It all varies on how you want to classify defencemen. To me a top 4 defenceman is one who makes an impact on a team. Wideman will make an impact on the Flames but his main strength is on the PP. Oilers defence isn't good but Flames ain't that much better. Teams that have worse defence than the Flames (shorter list than teams that have better defence than Flames) Colorado, Dallas, NYI. I'll even put Edmonton. Flames are in bottom 5. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- sig bet: I bet you whenever the season starts and finishes, that Yakupov + J. Schultz get more points than Bartschi + Wideman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjgallow Posted October 13, 2012 Report Share Posted October 13, 2012 What's that stat line supposed to indicate? Kings defence had 118 points last season, are the Flames' defensive core better than theirs? When Edmonton gets anywhere near there, then we can have that conversation, and you will lose that conversation. But in the meantime, no. No, we're not comparing Edmonton's defense to Calgary. At all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConnorFutureGM Posted October 13, 2012 Report Share Posted October 13, 2012 When Edmonton gets anywhere near there, then we can have that conversation, and you will lose that conversation. But in the meantime, no. No, we're not comparing Edmonton's defense to Calgary. At all. OK, you brought this out of me. Bouwmeester One of the most overrated Flames by Flames fans. Bouwmeester is one of the highest paid defencemen in the league and has yet to come close to living up to his contract. He has yet to hit 30 points as a Flame. This guy also has no heart, he is a robot playing hockey. At least Data from TNG wanted to better himself as an android but Bouwmeester thinks he fine the way he is. He doesn't lead the Flames or any team that he's ever been on into the playoffs. The only way he will ever be a winner is on the backs of better players. To bad for him and Flames fans he is one of the best players on the team. Bouwmeester is already well into his prime so this could very well be Bouwmeester at his top end. Wideman This was a horrible signing by the Flames and a group of hockey analysts concur with me here. This guy is paid like a top defenceman. He reached the second highest point total of his career at 46 at the age of 29. He has nowhere to go but down with his offence. His offence is headed for a dive through the coming years but his salary won't be; he has a caphit of 5.25 million over the next 5 years. What else does he contribute to a team? Not much. Wideman had favorable competition and zone starts but still managed a negative corsi. Giordano He's decent. Again, another player in his prime. Butler Another overrated Flame. A lot of Flames fans put high hopes on him because he was part of the Regehr and a 2nd trade for taking on Kotalik. Butler is the high point of that trade since Byron can't stick with an NHL team. He doesn't have offence and can't defend too well either and he's not physical. Watch as Jake McCabe becomes the best player from that trade. Sarich A declining stay at home defenceman well past his prime. Brodie The shining star at the end of the long dark tunnel of being a Flames' fan? We'll see how he progresses. Smith A crappier version of Potter. Babchuk Another defenceman who doesn't give a crap. He's big and can't skate. Also like most Flames, he has the Calgary special of having a NTC/NMC while being in his prime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjgallow Posted October 13, 2012 Report Share Posted October 13, 2012 OK, you brought this out of me. .... not the faintest idea of where you're going with this...but there were a Lot of words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PokernHockey Posted October 13, 2012 Report Share Posted October 13, 2012 not the faintest idea of where you're going with this...but there were a Lot of words. He was providing more unbiased opinion. I bet you whenever the season starts and finishes, that Yakupov + J. Schultz get more points than Bartschi + Wideman Conner, do you think that it is telling that in your "sig bet" during a discussion about D you use 1 d and 1 forward from each team? I will happy bet you that Calgary's D combine for more points then Edmontons D this year, although that is not the only determining factor in what makes D good or bad. Heck, based on your 'offensive powerhouse team,' Your D should get waaaaayyyyy more points then the flames. Lets look at that for a second. jjgallows pointed out that... Flames defensemen: 25 goals, 125 points Edmonton's defensemen: 21 goals, 105 points. So we already know the flames D chipped in more goals and points. Assists however make up a lot of those points for both teams. Its easier to get assists the more points your team scores. Last year, the flames scored 199 goals. Not offensive powerhouse numbers, I think everyone will agree. The mighty Oilers offense managed 207. Lets look at the goals by D as a percentage of total goals: Flames:12.56% Oilers:.10.14% So the flames D was a bigger contributor to the flames offense on goals. Lets look at how many points the D got on each goal the team scored: Flames: .6281 Oilers: .5072 Wow. The Flames D averaged about 24% more points on each goal then the Oilers D. and contributed more goals themselves. Now I expect that the Oilers will get more goals this year as the 1sts and Eberle get older. Once Again, I will happy bet you that Calgary's D combine for more points then Edmontons D this year No, lets make it less biased towards which team is more offensively focused since this is a discussion about team D. I will happy bet you that Calgary's D gets more Goals, or if you prefer, I will happy bet you that Calgary's D gets more points per goal the team scores. Or do you need your first overall (forward) picks involved in a bet to think the oilers D has a chance has a chance at scoring more then the flames D? In your posts you keep talking about the amazing potential your players all have. How all of our good D are in their prime and won't improve. Potential is important when looking into the future for building a team. However, when comparing who is better this year, it doesn't mean squat. What matters is who is better now. Currently, the Oilers look better 5 years down the road then the Flames, I doubt anyone disagrees with that. A lot can change in 5 years though from drafting, to trades and signing/failing to resign players, to players failing to meet their potential or exceeding what anyone expects. 5 years from now Coda Gordon may end up being the best player in the draft. Improbable to all but impossible, but it has happened before with late picks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PokernHockey Posted October 13, 2012 Report Share Posted October 13, 2012 What scouting reports say about Schultz is he's a top offensive defenceman who can skate and has reach. He has a developing defensive game. He is projected to be a better defenceman than Gardiner. Schultz is already getting points at the AHL level. My projection for Schultz is 40 points. I agree Schultz has a ton of potential, and could/should develop into a top 2 defenceman. heck, I hoped he would come to Calgary to help stock our prospect pool. However, can you name me the last college player who in his first year in the NHL was a force (only 19 D put up 40 points last year)? I can't think of any D who did that. Most take a year or 2 to acclimatize to the game. There is just as good of a chance that his game never translates also. Far more college stars have been nhl busts/roll players then have gone on to be NHL stars. I don't expect Schultz not to pan out. In fact, I am willing to bet only Anaheim fans truly want him to fail. But to assume that he will be a top 20 scoring D in his first year is a stretch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsp393 Posted October 13, 2012 Report Share Posted October 13, 2012 OK, you brought this out of me. Bouwmeester One of the most overrated Flames by Flames fans. Bouwmeester is one of the highest paid defencemen in the league and has yet to come close to living up to his contract. He has yet to hit 30 points as a Flame. This guy also has no heart, he is a robot playing hockey. At least Data from TNG wanted to better himself as an android but Bouwmeester thinks he fine the way he is. He doesn't lead the Flames or any team that he's ever been on into the playoffs. The only way he will ever be a winner is on the backs of better players. To bad for him and Flames fans he is one of the best players on the team. Bouwmeester is already well into his prime so this could very well be Bouwmeester at his top end. Wideman This was a horrible signing by the Flames and a group of hockey analysts concur with me here. This guy is paid like a top defenceman. He reached the second highest point total of his career at 46 at the age of 29. He has nowhere to go but down with his offence. His offence is headed for a dive through the coming years but his salary won't be; he has a caphit of 5.25 million over the next 5 years. What else does he contribute to a team? Not much. Wideman had favorable competition and zone starts but still managed a negative corsi. Giordano He's decent. Again, another player in his prime. Butler Another overrated Flame. A lot of Flames fans put high hopes on him because he was part of the Regehr and a 2nd trade for taking on Kotalik. Butler is the high point of that trade since Byron can't stick with an NHL team. He doesn't have offence and can't defend too well either and he's not physical. Watch as Jake McCabe becomes the best player from that trade. Sarich A declining stay at home defenceman well past his prime. Brodie The shining star at the end of the long dark tunnel of being a Flames' fan? We'll see how he progresses. Smith A crappier version of Potter. Babchuk Another defenceman who doesn't give a crap. He's big and can't skate. Also like most Flames, he has the Calgary special of having a NTC/NMC while being in his prime. Bouwmeester. Overpaid but not by much. The guys a shutdown dman who plays much better defensively then we ever expected. Everyones so down because his offence dropped off but they don't realize that he is playing much better defensively then we would have ever expected. Top players don't have to be strictly offence, top players play a two way game which bouw does. If you ever watched the flames not just guessed based on the 6 games a year against the oil you would see that bouw never ever ever pinches. Sutter obviously went out of his way to eliminate that part of bouws game because in florida he played an extreme offensive game in the offensive zone from what I had seen. Watch for bouws offence to make a return when the season starts, but even if it doesn't hes still an easy 6 million dollar player signed from free agency. Wideman is overpaid no doubt, but considering he was atleast a top ten most sought after free agent theres no question why hes overpaid. Hemskys paid 5 mill to be a ppg player for half a year so esentially making the same as ov and we overpaid??? Widemans a solid addition to the first pp and capable to play in most situation and play substantial minutes. According to stats someone posted on here a while back widemans a solid shot blocker and still throws the body often enough. Butler isn't overated he is just forced to be what he isn't because of our previous lack of depth, watch for the wideman signing to fix that as likely wideman goes up to play with bouw and butler goes with gio. The guys only about 26 so he still has some room to improve, hopefully with be a good 3/4 shutdown dman. Sarich is a more then capable 4/5 dman who still has gas in the take. hes not someone to build on but still a solid player that im sure the oil wouldn't mind having. Smith. Potters a joke, don't get too high on your oilers. Babchuck is a big mistake, no denying that. You mentioned on most players that there in there prime like its a bad thing. The flames having players in there prime is the difference between us doing as poorly as the oilers. Players in there prime are the absolute best players you can have that why its call the "prime". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConnorFutureGM Posted October 13, 2012 Report Share Posted October 13, 2012 Conner, do you think that it is telling that in your "sig bet" during a discussion about D you use 1 d and 1 forward from each team? The sig bet was on new, comparable players for each team that almost for sure will be with the team whe the season starts. I will happy bet you that Calgary's D combine for more points then Edmontons D this year, although that is not the only determining factor in what makes D good or bad. Heck, based on your 'offensive powerhouse team,' Your D should get waaaaayyyyy more points then the flames. Betting on points on a team's defensive core doesn't show what team's defensive core is better. I also think there is a good chance that both the Flames and Oilers defence will be different when the season starts. Lets look at that for a second. jjgallows pointed out that... Flames defensemen: 25 goals, 125 points Edmonton's defensemen: 21 goals, 105 points. So we already know the flames D chipped in more goals and points. Assists however make up a lot of those points for both teams. Its easier to get assists the more points your team scores. Last year, the flames scored 199 goals. Not offensive powerhouse numbers, I think everyone will agree. The mighty Oilers offense managed 207. Lets look at the goals by D as a percentage of total goals: Flames:12.56% Oilers:.10.14% So the flames D was a bigger contributor to the flames offense on goals. Lets look at how many points the D got on each goal the team scored: Flames: .6281 Oilers: .5072 Wow. The Flames D averaged about 24% more points on each goal then the Oilers D. and contributed more goals themselves. Now I expect that the Oilers will get more goals this year as the 1sts and Eberle get older. Once Again, I will happy bet you that Calgary's D combine for more points then Edmontons D this year No, lets make it less biased towards which team is more offensively focused since this is a discussion about team D. I will happy bet you that Calgary's D gets more Goals, or if you prefer, I will happy bet you that Calgary's D gets more points per goal the team scores. What does offence from a team's defensive core prove? The Kings defence had less offence than the Flames, does that mean the Flames have a better defence than them? If comparing two offensive defencemen then fine because that is their strength. Or do you need your first overall (forward) picks involved in a bet to think the oilers D has a chance has a chance at scoring more then the flames D? It Bartschi mania start up in cowtown? Bartschi has a year on Yakupov and their styles are not unalike. In your posts you keep talking about the amazing potential your players all have. How all of our good D are in their prime and won't improve. Potential is important when looking into the future for building a team. However, when comparing who is better this year, it doesn't mean squat. What matters is who is better now. It does matter because if they are in their prime, they are far less likely to reach another level of play. Currently, the Oilers look better 5 years down the road then the Flames, I doubt anyone disagrees with that. A lot can change in 5 years though from drafting, to trades and signing/failing to resign players, to players failing to meet their potential or exceeding what anyone expects. 5 years from now Coda Gordon may end up being the best player in the draft. Improbable to all but impossible, but it has happened before with late picks. I imagine the Flames will look quite a bit different in a year or two. A Flames team minus Iginla and Kiprusoff is a completely different team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyerfan52 Posted October 13, 2012 Report Share Posted October 13, 2012 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- sig bet: I bet you whenever the season starts and finishes, that Yakupov + J. Schultz get more points than Bartschi + Wideman You need a sig before you can bet it. ______________________________________ BTW, players in their prime are the 1s being counted on to do well in the current season by most teams. Depending on the player those prime years can go on for some time. Others slip slightly but remain mainstays (Lidstrom, Selanne). With newer players that haven't hit their projected top end there is a difference in when it's expected. Forwards are generally seen to hit their prime before defense due to the difference in responsibilities. That's why you often see top end prospects included in deals for players that are in their prime by teams that want/expect to win in the now rather then in a few years. (See LA deals last season.) You probably don't like Lyle Richardson's take on the Oilers on THN. He mentions the hole in goal, lack of experience on the defense & a general lack of size/toughness throughout the team. He's reiterating what all hockey fans that don't see the world through copper & blue glasses know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConnorFutureGM Posted October 14, 2012 Report Share Posted October 14, 2012 You probably don't like Lyle Richardson's take on the Oilers on THN. He mentions the hole in goal, lack of experience on the defense & a general lack of size/toughness throughout the team. He's reiterating what all hockey fans that don't see the world through copper & blue glasses know. He mentions Dubnyk has yet to establish himself as a #1 goaltender. It's up to Dubnyk to prove he can be a starter this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyerfan52 Posted October 14, 2012 Report Share Posted October 14, 2012 He mentions Dubnyk has yet to establish himself as a #1 goaltender. It's up to Dubnyk to prove he can be a starter this season. If he had a defense in front of him he looks to be good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConnorFutureGM Posted October 14, 2012 Report Share Posted October 14, 2012 If he had a defense in front of him he looks to be good. Dubnyk was not bad last season. It's the team defence that is lacking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ifiwaschucknorris Posted October 14, 2012 Report Share Posted October 14, 2012 I actually like Connorfuturegm's posts. He rarely loses his temper and he has mostly well reasoned (though admittedly biased but who of us isn't) arguments. That being said I believe in your initial analysis there are a few decided flaws in your reasoning. I had a very similar discussion last year on these boards. I compared similar type defencemen but I don't think that defines how good a team's defence really is. I think a better way would be seeing comparing the levels of defencemen. #1 defencemen Flames - 0 Oilers - 0 #2 defencemen Flames - Bouwmeester - Bouwmeester's offence has really dropped off while in Calgary but he plays against tough competition. Presumably, he'd be a great compliment to a #1 defenceman. Bouwmeester is in his prime which means his potential is maxed. Oilers - Whitney - Whitney's play has also fallen off but more due to injury. At his best he can put up points with any defenceman in the league but readjustment after injuries has not come easy. Whitney is in his prime which means his potential is maxed. Edge - Flames due to Whitney's injury history. I actually kind of agree with this one. Although if jbouw rediscovers his offence under Hartley it will be hands down flames. #3 defencemen Flames - Giordano - A well rounded defenceman. He is more offensive than defensive but neither is a weakness but he doesn't tear it up either. Giordano is in his prime which means his potential is maxed. - Wideman - Is a pure offensive defenceman. He has been a 40+ point defenceman on three seperate occasions and is a great powerplay defenceman. What he has in offence he lacks in defence. He might be closer to a #4 defenceman because he is more of a specialist and he is in his prime so his potential is maxed. Oilers - Smid - A defensive defenceman who plays a physical brand of hockey, Smid is the Oilers go to guy against the opposition's best forwards. Smid also is a good skater so he can keep up with the best offensive players in the leauge. His offence has be improving. Smid is close to his potential but he might be able to improve his offensive play within the next couple years of entering the prime age for a defenceman. - Petry - He had a breakout year last season paired with Smid. He played against the oppositions' best forwards and sill faired well. He has good size and speed and is also growing a physical aspect to his game. Petry has potential be #2 defenceman. Edge - Tie. We are likely looking at each teams go to pairing. The problem I have with this is that you are trying to bring in potential into a discussion about who currently has the best d core. I think you would be very hard pressed to find any gm in the league(including Edmonton) that wouldn't rather have Giordano and Wideman for the next few years than Smid and Petry. #4 defencemen Flames - 0 Oilers - N. Schultz - A defenceman similar to Bouwmeester with less skill. What he lacks in skill he makes up for in heart. A non-physical shutdown defenceman who doesn't contribute much to offence. He is in his prime so his potential is maxed. - J. Schultz - He will likely have a limited 5 on 5 role but a lot of time on the powerplay as he is an offensive defenceman. He has the potential to have an all around game and be a #2 defenceman once he fills out his body. edge - Oilers as Flames don't have #4 defencemen. I believe this is where Butler should be slotted. He played as a number 2 Dman last year and was admittedly outclassed but should do better in a 4/5 pairing. Also I notice you placed Brodie as number 6. He is our Justin Schultz but where Schultz is still all potential, Brodie has navigated the difficulties of the first year of his NHL career and did it well. Will Schultz be better than Brodie? If he reaches potential in a few years probably. But this year probably not. Still, N. Schultz is still better than Butler I think so if J. Schultz can fulfill his promise this year we have an oilers edge. If not then its a tie. #5 defenceman Flames - Butler - Played a shutdown role with Bouwmeester last season and at times did not fair well. He has the tools to we a well rounded defenceman but he might not have the IQ to put it together. He has potential to be a #3 defenceman. Oilers - 0 edge - Flames as Oilers don't have #5 defencemen. Number 5 is Sarich. He is still a solid Dman. #6 defenceman Flames - Sarich - A physical shutdown defenceman. Post prime so on decline of his potential. - Brodie - An offensive defenceman with upside to be a 2nd pairing defenceman. Oilers - 0 edge - Flames as Oilers don't have #5 defencemen. I would actually give this one a tie as I don't think we have a 6 guy either. #7/extra defencemen Flames - Smith - An all-around depth defenceman in his prime. - Babchuk - An PP defenceman in his prime. Oilers - Potter - An all around depth defenceman in his prime. - Sutton - A big, physical defenceman past his prime. - Peckham - A big, physical defenceman with good physical skills but lacking in hockey IQ. Has potential to be a #4 defenceman if he can put it all together. edge - Oilers as they have more #7 defencemen and more that aren't a liability 5 on 5. You are arguing potential again. I can't disagree that you have more number 7 guys but that is the oilers main problem. Most of the dmen in oil country are playing one or two positions higher than they should except Whitney. If they had one more number one or two guy they would be way better off. But they don't so I would have to give the decided edge to the flames. In three years who knows but for now it's the Flames. Opinions will obviously vary on the defence but the defence is definitely close when comparing the two teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stranger Posted October 14, 2012 Report Share Posted October 14, 2012 Some good points Norris but youve got to throw in salary and length of the contracts if you compare players.We wont consider age just because.. Smid 2.25 mill 1yr remaining Petry 1.75 mill 2 yrs =4.00 mill Gio 4.00 4 yrs remaining Wideman 5.25 5 yrs = 9.25 mill Yipes.Widemans contract is without a doubt the Flames for the duration.Ive never seen the guy play but getting benched last year in the playoffs isnt a good sign.Feaster and company saddled the Flames horse with this guy for 5 long years.We are talking 2018 here.Lets see how it pans out,but according to lots of Washington fans, Kipper will be even busier with this turn over machine in the Flames line up.Petry will strut his stuff for the Oilers and Team USA for years to come.Count on it.His old man was a star on the diamond,hes making his name in hockey.Smid will be a beast next year.Hes one of the leaques top shot blocking dman that,hits,scraps,and is finding some offence to his game.Remember,both these young guys are another year older,stronger,wiser this year.Oilers win this comparison hands down.And for less than half the price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjgallow Posted October 14, 2012 Report Share Posted October 14, 2012 I actually like Connorfuturegm's posts. He rarely loses his temper and he has mostly well reasoned (though admittedly biased but who of us isn't) arguments. That being said I believe in your initial analysis there are a few decided flaws in your reasoning. Yeah, Connor makes some good points. This just isn't one of them. I haven't seen anything to give me reason that comparing Calgary's defense with Edmonton's is even worth the time to discuss. It's nothing personal. I just mostly visit this thread to poke fun at Edmonton. I'd like to discus the fact that I think our prospect pool is strengthening, to the point that it's becoming near what Edmonton has, yet we didn't have to finish last multiple years in a row to do it. And our current team is way better, all around. So if we're better now, and our future is bright, gotta wonder why Edmonton chose to lose so much. Doesn't seem to be panning out for them, especially with many of their top players and prospects hitting free agency soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConnorFutureGM Posted October 15, 2012 Report Share Posted October 15, 2012 I actually like Connorfuturegm's posts. He rarely loses his temper and he has mostly well reasoned (though admittedly biased but who of us isn't) arguments. That being said I believe in your initial analysis there are a few decided flaws in your reasoning. Nice to have someone to someone not automatically jumping to the "disagree with me because I'm pro Oiler" wagon. I actually kind of agree with this one. Although if jbouw rediscovers his offence under Hartley it will be hands down flames. With Bouwmeester it's frustrating because he has the skill and the brains, not so much the desire. Bouwmeester had quite a bit of PP minutes in Florida and he hasn't had as much in Calgary. Defencemen rely on PP minutes to get their points. With Wideman joining the Flames, I'd imagine Bouwmeester's PP time to go down before going up. The problem I have with this is that you are trying to bring in potential into a discussion about who currently has the best d core. I think you would be very hard pressed to find any gm in the league(including Edmonton) that wouldn't rather have Giordano and Wideman for the next few years than Smid and Petry. I brought up potential just to point out the fact players already in their prime or past it are unlikely to have a career season much better than their previous career years. I disagree with you on Smid-Petry vs Giordano-Wideman. Putting both salary and potential aside, Smid and Petry are bigger defenceman with comparable skating. They are not as offensive as Giordano-Wideman but are more sound defensively. IMO there would be at the very least a few GMs who would prefer the more defensive pairing. I believe this is where Butler should be slotted. He played as a number 2 Dman last year and was admittedly outclassed but should do better in a 4/5 pairing. Also I notice you placed Brodie as number 6. He is our Justin Schultz but where Schultz is still all potential, Brodie has navigated the difficulties of the first year of his NHL career and did it well. Will Schultz be better than Brodie? If he reaches potential in a few years probably. But this year probably not. Still, N. Schultz is still better than Butler I think so if J. Schultz can fulfill his promise this year we have an oilers edge. If not then its a tie. My projections will be different than others so it comes down to opinion. I think Schultz will be more important to the Oilers than Brodie to the Flames. Through two regular season and two preseasons games in the AHL, Schultz has been the Barons best skater and this is including RNH and Eberle. We'll see if he can play at a similar level in the NHL but he gives no indication that he won't be able to. I think Brodie will overtake Butler in a season or two. You are arguing potential again. I can't disagree that you have more number 7 guys but that is the oilers main problem. Most of the dmen in oil country are playing one or two positions higher than they should except Whitney. If they had one more number one or two guy they would be way better off. But they don't so I would have to give the decided edge to the flames. In three years who knows but for now it's the Flames. I'll give a slight edge to the Flames for their defensive core. I was just saying that the Flames defence isn't that much better than the Oilers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConnorFutureGM Posted October 15, 2012 Report Share Posted October 15, 2012 Yeah, Connor makes some good points. This just isn't one of them. I haven't seen anything to give me reason that comparing Calgary's defense with Edmonton's is even worth the time to discuss. It's nothing personal. I just mostly visit this thread to poke fun at Edmonton. I'd like to discus the fact that I think our prospect pool is strengthening, to the point that it's becoming near what Edmonton has, yet we didn't have to finish last multiple years in a row to do it. And our current team is way better, all around. So if we're better now, and our future is bright, gotta wonder why Edmonton chose to lose so much. Doesn't seem to be panning out for them, especially with many of their top players and prospects hitting free agency soon. Now you just fell off of a cliff. The Flames prospect pool is not that strong. They are improving but the Flames still have to go at least two more seasons of not trading away any of their picks while acquiring more picks to have it comparable to the Oilers. Also, the Flames are not a all around better team. Goaltending for sure and a slight edge on defence. The Oilers have better 1st and 2nd line LW, C and RWs. 1st LW Hall vs Tanguay, 1st C RNH vs Cammalleri?, 1st RW Eberle vs Iginla 2nd LW Yakupov vs Cervenka, 2nd C Gagner vs Backlund, 2nd RW Hemsky vs Hudler The Oilers win every match up in the top 6. Lets look at the checking lines now 3rd LW Smyth vs Glencross, 3rd C Horcoff vs Stajan, 3rd RW Jones vs Stempniak 4th LW Eager vs Bartschi, 4th C Belanger vs Jones, 4th RW Petrell vs Commeau Flames win with Glencross, Stempniak and Bartschi. The Oilers have a much better forward group than the Flames. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsp393 Posted October 15, 2012 Report Share Posted October 15, 2012 Now you just fell off of a cliff. The Flames prospect pool is not that strong. They are improving but the Flames still have to go at least two more seasons of not trading away any of their picks while acquiring more picks to have it comparable to the Oilers. Also, the Flames are not a all around better team. Goaltending for sure and a slight edge on defence. The Oilers have better 1st and 2nd line LW, C and RWs. 1st LW Hall vs Tanguay, 1st C RNH vs Cammalleri?, 1st RW Eberle vs Iginla 2nd LW Yakupov vs Cervenka, 2nd C Gagner vs Backlund, 2nd RW Hemsky vs Hudler The Oilers win every match up in the top 6. Lets look at the checking lines now 3rd LW Smyth vs Glencross, 3rd C Horcoff vs Stajan, 3rd RW Jones vs Stempniak 4th LW Eager vs Bartschi, 4th C Belanger vs Jones, 4th RW Petrell vs Commeau Flames win with Glencross, Stempniak and Bartschi. The Oilers have a much better forward group than the Flames. Hall vs Tanguay: Neither have proved that much but tangs has played more consistent then ever since joining the flames and hasn't missed near as many games as hall. I would still give it to hall, but untill he proves himself its not by as much as you might think Cammy vs RNH: Impossible to say untill RNH has more then one season under his belt and we see what cammy is like at center Iginla vs Eberle: Tough one but Iginlas a 11 consecutive year 30 goal scorer who leads a team. Eberle has only player two season and only one was over 50 pts, Ill admit he really impressed this season but it's tough to make assumptions that he will duplicate. At this point I go with iginla but not by too much. Yakupov vs Cervenka: Both rookies so its impossible to say. Gagner vs Backlund: Ill give you this one hands down for now. Hemsky vs Hudler: untill hemsky proves he is past his injury problems then you have to go with hudler. You have POTENTIAL to have a way better top 6, but its a real toss up right now as both teams are loaded with question marks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjgallow Posted October 15, 2012 Report Share Posted October 15, 2012 Now you just fell off of a cliff. Lolz...funny. I didn't read the rest, of course...but funny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConnorFutureGM Posted October 15, 2012 Report Share Posted October 15, 2012 Hall vs Tanguay: Neither have proved that much but tangs has played more consistent then ever since joining the flames and hasn't missed near as many games as hall. I would still give it to hall, but untill he proves himself its not by as much as you might think - This one was closer than most just because Tanguay seems to play well when he plays with Iginla. Still Hall is a beast when it comes to corsi while Tanguay is far from par to put it kindly. Cammy vs RNH: Impossible to say untill RNH has more then one season under his belt and we see what cammy is like at center - Come on man, this was an easy one. Cammalleri isn't even a centre but he's slotted as one next season. RNH had 11 more points than Cammalleri in 4 less games in his rookie season. To me this one is a no brainer. Cammalleri has a better chance on the left wing. Iginla vs Eberle: Tough one but Iginlas a 11 consecutive year 30 goal scorer who leads a team. Eberle has only player two season and only one was over 50 pts, Ill admit he really impressed this season but it's tough to make assumptions that he will duplicate. At this point I go with iginla but not by too much. - I'll give you credit that Eberle had an unreal shooting percentage last season and it's hard to tell if it was an anomaly or the norm. Iginla's play has been sliding for the last few seasons. He might still have a good season and a half in the tank but he is a shadow of the player he was. People state that I've been using potential to compare players when its based on how they'd do next season. I think the opposite holds true here with Iginla. He was a Hart Trophy calibur player but those days are passed. You can't hold him in the same light that he was in before. I think this was the closest matchup between the two teams. It could go either way but last season Eberle was better so I'm going Eberle. Yakupov vs Cervenka: Both rookies so its impossible to say. - It might be impossible to state with any factual evidence which one will do better but one could always try. Yakupov has 4 goals and 2 assists in 6 games in a better than usual KHL. He also doesn't have the benefit of playing with any other NHL level talent. While its still early in the season, those are more than decent numbers. Cervenka posted 23 goals and 16 assists for 39 points in 54 games. Decent but not near as good as the rate Yakupov is producing at. Gagner vs Backlund: Ill give you this one hands down for now. - Backlund is a better defensive centre. IMO he would be better served on a checking line with Glencross and Stempniak. Hemsky vs Hudler: untill hemsky proves he is past his injury problems then you have to go with hudler. Not true. Hudler's best season was a 57 point performance in 82 games. Hemsky has come close to performing at a ppg basis for most of his career. Even with injuries Hemsky has been the more impactful player through their careers. You have POTENTIAL to have a way better top 6, but its a real toss up right now as both teams are loaded with question marks. I'm curious to see how the Flames top 5 forwards will perform under Hartley. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carty Posted October 15, 2012 Report Share Posted October 15, 2012 If he had a defense in front of him he looks to be good. True enough... But he still needs to work on his Torjuntaprosentti as well... Maybe watching so many games in other leagues like the SM-liiga is starting to rub off... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyerfan52 Posted October 15, 2012 Report Share Posted October 15, 2012 Bad news for Oilers fans that want them to start winning. Crosby is raving about a kid named Connor McDavid saying he reminds him of himself. The bad news is his draft year is 2015. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsp393 Posted October 15, 2012 Report Share Posted October 15, 2012 Bad news for Oilers fans that want them to start winning. Crosby is raving about a kid named Connor McDavid saying he reminds him of himself. The bad news is his draft year is 2015. Time to start trading all of hall eberle rnh and so on for 2015 firsts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyerfan52 Posted October 15, 2012 Report Share Posted October 15, 2012 Time to start trading all of hall eberle rnh and so on for 2015 firsts. Or snag MacKinnon next draft & McDavid 2 years later so they end up with 2 Crosbys. By then they might be able to trade a combo of their current youth for the real Crosby & go with Crosby 1, 2 & 3 down the center (with 2 of them on EL). Surely Crosby & 2 younger versions will have UFAs begging to play there for minimum. *I realize trading Hall, Eberle, etc. would probably accomplish both aims. I was just elaborating on it. * ____________________________________________ Just curious on people's thoughts on this ?. With the hockey establishment comparing MacKinnon to Crosby (everything from birthplace to route followed) do you think they'd offer Malkin for that 1/1 pick & change? I don't want to derail the thread & that idea might be worth it's own during this slow period but the above comment just made me think of that. A 2nd (healthy) Crosby on EL or a highly paid weasel that could still demand that return. What do you figure Mario would prefer? ___________________________________________ No NHL so I figure I might as well spitball something like these for discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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