Oilers

[ConnorFutureGM]

Personally, I think Babchuk would look much better in an Oilers jersey. We could throw in some untainted beef, maybe.

You forgot to add the Flames 2014 2nd rounder.

Google Search: Feaster Bouwmeester (https://www.google.ca/#hl=en&sugexp=les%3B&gs_nf=1&tok=yZRDbogr1dWomWj4vyeaWw&cp=20&gs_id=ph&xhr=t&q=feaster+bouwmeester&pf=p&safe=off&sclient=psy-ab&oq=feaster+bouwmeester+&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=22d639e7c53e3cfb&biw=1680&bih=864)

Darren Dreger, TSN Blog post August 18, 2012: (http://www.tsn.ca/blogs/darren_dreger/?id=398673)

NHL Fan Chat August 27, 2012 "Flames Trade Situations Progressing" (http://nhlfanchat.com/articles/flames-trade-situations-progressing--2)

NHL Fan Chat July 30, 2012 "Red Wings offer the Flames Filpulla+ for Bouwmeester" (http://nhlfanchat.com/articles/red-wings-offer-the-flames-filppula-for-bouwmeester--2)

Who was the source in the fan chat quotes?

[gsp393]

wrong thread

[ConnorFutureGM]

Feaster is the ultimate insider. And he has said several times that he isn't trying to trade Bouwmeester, but that teams have asked about him.

You can choose not to believe him if you like, but since there are no claims by any "insiders" to the contracry, your refusal to believe Feaster just comes off as antagonistic and childish.

If only I cared about your opinion of me.

Not sure how long you've been watching hockey but there are few GMs that say anything with any substance when talking about potential player moves.

antagonistic and childish... or based on a large sample of history - just regular skepticism of anything that comes out of any management's mouth?

But considering the board maybe its the former... otherwise, the latter is usually a default setting.

What you said.

[travel_dude]

If only I cared about your opinion of me.

Not sure how long you've been watching hockey but there are few GMs that say anything with any substance when talking about potential player moves.

What you said.

You could just ignore the comments, but you choose to come back to get the last word in.

When you make bold statements about teams, you should expect some flak. Nobody minds a good discussion based on facts or opinions, but back-and-forth sniping only ends when someone walks away from the discussion.

My suggestion is post your facts and opinions and stay away from the character debates.

[Flyerfan52]

Personally, I think Babchuk would look much better in an Oilers jersey. We could throw in some untainted beef, maybe.

He'd probably be dangerous on their PP.

He might also get icetime on the 3rd pair rather then putting a dent in arena popcorn profits.

A Edmonton 3rd in almost a 2nd so that should be a fair price.

[woodendoug]

I've stated what I see as JBo's return for a while. Some are starting to believe that's what he'll garner.

Most were team specific & rosters have changed as have team needs but I still see the return as a top 9 forward (or prospect that would probably start @ least 3rd line on teams that aren't stacked @ forward), a top 4 defense (the 1 JBo would replace) & a 1st rounder or highly rated prospect. Most likely a current top 9 to make the $s work.

Of course, that's from a contender as I doubt he'd waive to go to a perpetual bottom feeder.

You know I was just starting to like you(:

[jjgallow]

He'd probably be dangerous on their PP.

He might also get icetime on the 3rd pair rather then putting a dent in arena popcorn profits.

A Edmonton 3rd in almost a 2nd so that should be a fair price.

I agree, that's a fair deal. And it would still be an upgrade for Edmonton

We could do the deal now, or wait until they can't afford to sign all their players, and take their prospects then.

Decisions, decisions

[ConnorFutureGM]

I agree, that's a fair deal. And it would still be an upgrade for Edmonton

We could do the deal now, or wait until they can't afford to sign all their players, and take their prospects then.

Decisions, decisions

Oilers' defence is just as deep as the Flames'. Oilers don't need a guy who can't make the Flames' lineup.

[Keyro]

Oilers' defence is just as deep as the Flames'. Oilers don't need a guy who can't make the Flames' lineup.

The laughter you just provided for me will make me feel better tomorrow when no teams are lacing up.

Whenever I feel blue I'll just remember how you said the oilers D was just as good as the flames

[ConnorFutureGM]

The laughter you just provided for me will make me feel better tomorrow when no teams are lacing up.

Whenever I feel blue I'll just remember how you said the oilers D was just as good as the flames

I had a very similar discussion last year on these boards. I compared similar type defencemen but I don't think that defines how good a team's defence really is. I think a better way would be seeing comparing the levels of defencemen.

#1 defencemen

Flames - 0

Oilers - 0

#2 defencemen

Flames - Bouwmeester - Bouwmeester's offence has really dropped off while in Calgary but he plays against tough competition. Presumably, he'd be a great compliment to a #1 defenceman. Bouwmeester is in his prime which means his potential is maxed.

Oilers - Whitney - Whitney's play has also fallen off but more due to injury. At his best he can put up points with any defenceman in the league but readjustment after injuries has not come easy. Whitney is in his prime which means his potential is maxed.

Edge - Flames due to Whitney's injury history.

#3 defencemen

Flames - Giordano - A well rounded defenceman. He is more offensive than defensive but neither is a weakness but he doesn't tear it up either. Giordano is in his prime which means his potential is maxed.

- Wideman - Is a pure offensive defenceman. He has been a 40+ point defenceman on three seperate occasions and is a great powerplay defenceman. What he has in offence he lacks in defence. He might be closer to a #4 defenceman because he is more of a specialist and he is in his prime so his potential is maxed.

Oilers - Smid - A defensive defenceman who plays a physical brand of hockey, Smid is the Oilers go to guy against the opposition's best forwards. Smid also is a good skater so he can keep up with the best offensive players in the leauge. His offence has be improving. Smid is close to his potential but he might be able to improve his offensive play within the next couple years of entering the prime age for a defenceman.

- Petry - He had a breakout year last season paired with Smid. He played against the oppositions' best forwards and sill faired well. He has good size and speed and is also growing a physical aspect to his game. Petry has potential be #2 defenceman.

Edge - Tie. We are likely looking at each teams go to pairing.

#4 defencemen

Flames - 0

Oilers - N. Schultz - A defenceman similar to Bouwmeester with less skill. What he lacks in skill he makes up for in heart. A non-physical shutdown defenceman who doesn't contribute much to offence. He is in his prime so his potential is maxed.

- J. Schultz - He will likely have a limited 5 on 5 role but a lot of time on the powerplay as he is an offensive defenceman. He has the potential to have an all around game and be a #2 defenceman once he fills out his body.

edge - Oilers as Flames don't have #4 defencemen.

#5 defenceman

Flames - Butler - Played a shutdown role with Bouwmeester last season and at times did not fair well. He has the tools to we a well rounded defenceman but he might not have the IQ to put it together. He has potential to be a #3 defenceman.

Oilers - 0

edge - Flames as Oilers don't have #5 defencemen.

#6 defenceman

Flames - Sarich - A physical shutdown defenceman. Post prime so on decline of his potential.

- Brodie - An offensive defenceman with upside to be a 2nd pairing defenceman.

Oilers - 0

edge - Flames as Oilers don't have #5 defencemen.

#7/extra defencemen

Flames - Smith - An all-around depth defenceman in his prime.

- Babchuk - An PP defenceman in his prime.

Oilers - Potter - An all around depth defenceman in his prime.

- Sutton - A big, physical defenceman past his prime.

- Peckham - A big, physical defenceman with good physical skills but lacking in hockey IQ. Has potential to be a #4 defenceman if he can put it all together.

edge - Oilers as they have more #7 defencemen and more that aren't a liability 5 on 5.

Opinions will obviously vary on the defence but the defence is definitely close when comparing the two teams.

[Flyerfan52]

You know I was just starting to like you(:

Why would any player waive to go to a worse team? I don't recall that happening unless there are other circumstances (family ties or the like). Raymond Borque waived to go to a possible SC winner after spending his career in Boston. Every player hopefully enters the league with that childhood dream of hoisting Lord Stanley's championship bowl (what it started as).

It wasn't a dig @ any particular team but an explanation of why I saw that level of return. There is a big difference in the value of a 1st rounder from a contender & a team that regularly has or is near a lottery pick. If you trade with SJ you expect that pick to be in the bottom 1/2 of the draft (as they normally make the playoffs even if they don't go deep) but teams that seldom make the playoffs regularly draft higher. The remainder of the return adjusts accordingly.

A likely lottery pick means the quality of the roster player(s) is likely lower as they have less that are expendable but the prospect(s) might be rated higher as as they usually have higher picks in the system.

I'll use the Jets as we bought a team that normally drafted high. They'd be unlikely to give up a E Kane, Bogo or Wheeler or others in the top 9/top 2 pairings because they want to add talent but their pick would be higher. That alone changes the dynamic. The bottom end of that top 9 is also weaker then what you see on contenders.

My Flyers could afford to give up a top 9 forward as many of our 3rd liners should be on the 2nd & we're knee deep in 3/4 defense but need a top pairing guy (preferably both a #1 & 2) but our pick is usually toward the end on the round.

There are many considerations to take into account to determine value. I used that contender part to explain my reasoning.

[woodendoug]

Why would any player waive to go to a worse team? I don't recall that happening unless there are other circumstances (family ties or the like). Raymond Borque waived to go to a possible SC winner after spending his career in Boston. Every player hopefully enters the league with that childhood dream of hoisting Lord Stanley's championship bowl (what it started as).

It wasn't a dig @ any particular team but an explanation of why I saw that level of return. There is a big difference in the value of a 1st rounder from a contender & a team that regularly has or is near a lottery pick. If you trade with SJ you expect that pick to be in the bottom 1/2 of the draft (as they normally make the playoffs even if they don't go deep) but teams that seldom make the playoffs regularly draft higher. The remainder of the return adjusts accordingly.

A likely lottery pick means the quality of the roster player(s) is likely lower as they have less that are expendable but the prospect(s) might be rated higher as as they usually have higher picks in the system.

I'll use the Jets as we bought a team that normally drafted high. They'd be unlikely to give up a E Kane, Bogo or Wheeler or others in the top 9/top 2 pairings because they want to add talent but their pick would be higher. That alone changes the dynamic. The bottom end of that top 9 is also weaker then what you see on contenders.

My Flyers could afford to give up a top 9 forward as many of our 3rd liners should be on the 2nd & we're knee deep in 3/4 defense but need a top pairing guy (preferably both a #1 & 2) but our pick is usually toward the end on the round.

There are many considerations to take into account to determine value. I used that contender part to explain my reasoning.

OK good, time to get it out and move on. First the wording on your posts in this thread toward the Oilers is usually derogatory. Bottom dwellers, bottom feeders, team of 1st-1sts, Kevin Lowes circus, last place again etc. What I have been trying to convey to you are these are pointless words stating the obvious. In the end we are all just hockey fans. Would it not serve your purpose as good or better to use phrases such as struggling to succeed or disappointing season or trying to achieve success. I never cut down the Flames like that because there is absolutly no sense in it. You guy's know fair well what the issues are.

As for a players choice to go to the Edmonton Oilers, I would not underestimate that right now.

Sorry had to get it out, I have moved on lets continue to make conversation.

[jjgallow]

I had a very similar discussion last year on these boards. I compared similar type defencemen but I don't think that defines how good a team's defence really is. I think a better way would be seeing comparing the levels of defencemen.

#1 defencemen

Flames - 0

Oilers - 0

#2 defencemen

Flames - Bouwmeester - Bouwmeester's offence has really dropped off while in Calgary but he plays against tough competition. Presumably, he'd be a great compliment to a #1 defenceman. Bouwmeester is in his prime which means his potential is maxed.

Oilers - Whitney - Whitney's play has also fallen off but more due to injury. At his best he can put up points with any defenceman in the league but readjustment after injuries has not come easy. Whitney is in his prime which means his potential is maxed.

Edge - Flames due to Whitney's injury history.

#3 defencemen

Flames - Giordano - A well rounded defenceman. He is more offensive than defensive but neither is a weakness but he doesn't tear it up either. Giordano is in his prime which means his potential is maxed.

- Wideman - Is a pure offensive defenceman. He has been a 40+ point defenceman on three seperate occasions and is a great powerplay defenceman. What he has in offence he lacks in defence. He might be closer to a #4 defenceman because he is more of a specialist and he is in his prime so his potential is maxed.

Oilers - Smid - A defensive defenceman who plays a physical brand of hockey, Smid is the Oilers go to guy against the opposition's best forwards. Smid also is a good skater so he can keep up with the best offensive players in the leauge. His offence has be improving. Smid is close to his potential but he might be able to improve his offensive play within the next couple years of entering the prime age for a defenceman.

- Petry - He had a breakout year last season paired with Smid. He played against the oppositions' best forwards and sill faired well. He has good size and speed and is also growing a physical aspect to his game. Petry has potential be #2 defenceman.

Edge - Tie. We are likely looking at each teams go to pairing.

#4 defencemen

Flames - 0

Oilers - N. Schultz - A defenceman similar to Bouwmeester with less skill. What he lacks in skill he makes up for in heart. A non-physical shutdown defenceman who doesn't contribute much to offence. He is in his prime so his potential is maxed.

- J. Schultz - He will likely have a limited 5 on 5 role but a lot of time on the powerplay as he is an offensive defenceman. He has the potential to have an all around game and be a #2 defenceman once he fills out his body.

edge - Oilers as Flames don't have #4 defencemen.

#5 defenceman

Flames - Butler - Played a shutdown role with Bouwmeester last season and at times did not fair well. He has the tools to we a well rounded defenceman but he might not have the IQ to put it together. He has potential to be a #3 defenceman.

Oilers - 0

edge - Flames as Oilers don't have #5 defencemen.

#6 defenceman

Flames - Sarich - A physical shutdown defenceman. Post prime so on decline of his potential.

- Brodie - An offensive defenceman with upside to be a 2nd pairing defenceman.

Oilers - 0

edge - Flames as Oilers don't have #5 defencemen.

#7/extra defencemen

Flames - Smith - An all-around depth defenceman in his prime.

- Babchuk - An PP defenceman in his prime.

Oilers - Potter - An all around depth defenceman in his prime.

- Sutton - A big, physical defenceman past his prime.

- Peckham - A big, physical defenceman with good physical skills but lacking in hockey IQ. Has potential to be a #4 defenceman if he can put it all together.

edge - Oilers as they have more #7 defencemen and more that aren't a liability 5 on 5.

Opinions will obviously vary on the defence but the defence is definitely close when comparing the two teams.

I'm sorry. I appreciate the effort, but no, no, no, and no.

By your own evaluation, Calgary wins. You gave us a tie on the first spot. That's a joke, but whatever.

Then you gave Calgary the win on the second line. Whitney, by the way, is and always will be inbetween injuries.

That's the end of the analysis. I don't care about the rest (if I did, I would point out that we win that too).

The fact that you're making an arguement that your 7th defenseman is better than our 7th defenseman (which is wrong)....is irrelevant by all accounts.

Trades are won by who gets the best player. Would Calgary trade all their defensemen for all of Edmonton's defencemen? no...no, no, and no. And not for all of Edmonton's defensive prospects either. Great draft positions, but bad draft choices.

[Flyerfan52]

OK good, time to get it out and move on. First the wording on your posts in this thread toward the Oilers is usually derogatory. Bottom dwellers, bottom feeders, team of 1st-1sts, Kevin Lowes circus, last place again etc. What I have been trying to convey to you are these are pointless words stating the obvious. In the end we are all just hockey fans. Would it not serve your purpose as good or better to use phrases such as struggling to succeed or disappointing season or trying to achieve success. I never cut down the Flames like that because there is absolutly no sense in it. You guy's know fair well what the issues are.

As for a players choice to go to the Edmonton Oilers, I would not underestimate that right now.

Sorry had to get it out, I have moved on lets continue to make conversation.

Sorry. Your "struggling to succeed", "trying to achieve success" are too politically correct for this old fart. (As to the terms you call derogatory they are all truths.)

Oilers management stated years ago that they had tried everything else & saw the only way left was by drafting & (hopefully) retaining players. Many (mostly younger) fans of Edmonton are over zealous in their support of that & compare unknowns to the greats before the player has laced up his skates in the NHL.

I seldom respond that way to what I consider serious fans of the Oilers but feel quite free to use responses like that to those that expouse that is the only way to have a winning team (you know the 1s I refer too). To some Oiler posters every player drafted/traded for becomes a core player that can't be moved for less then a huge overpayment. (During the dynasty years Sather would regularly tweak the roster. Willy Lindstrom for Boschman type deals. The Isles did that during their glory years & he followed suit. It worked.)

Until proven otherwise you have a clean sheet. There are a few good Oiler posters that are respected but there are a few that are cartoons due to their adulation & simple belief that every team should follow the game plan the Oilers were forced into. The respect you gain/lose is up to you. Reason instead of blind belief that the Edmonton braintrust holds the key to all that matters in hockey gains respect.

I've said before that I want the BoA to be the toughest, most exciting battle in hockey again. When they met to represent the west you always felt the survivor deserved the Cup.

[ConnorFutureGM]

I'm sorry. I appreciate the effort, but no, no, no, and no.

By your own evaluation, Calgary wins. You gave us a tie on the first spot. That's a joke, but whatever.

Then you gave Calgary the win on the second line. Whitney, by the way, is and always will be inbetween injuries.

That's the end of the analysis. I don't care about the rest (if I did, I would point out that we win that too).

The fact that you're making an arguement that your 7th defenseman is better than our 7th defenseman (which is wrong)....is irrelevant by all accounts.

Trades are won by who gets the best player. Would Calgary trade all their defensemen for all of Edmonton's defencemen? no...no, no, and no. And not for all of Edmonton's defensive prospects either. Great draft positions, but bad draft choices.

I gave the edge to the Flames over the Oilers on Whitney vs Bouwmeester. Neither team has a #1 defenceman. IMO #1 defencemen are Norris calibur defencemen.

I can tell you can not be fair in a comparison judgement if you think every defenceman the Flames has is better than the Oilers.

There are only two reasons the Flames weren't right beside the Oilers in the standings last season and it's not what you think is a superior defensive core. 1. The Flames are a veteran team and have more experience on how to win the closer games. 2. Kiprusoff.

[travel_dude]

I gave the edge to the Flames over the Oilers on Whitney vs Bouwmeester. Neither team has a #1 defenceman. IMO #1 defencemen are Norris calibur defencemen.

I can tell you can not be fair in a comparison judgement if you think every defenceman the Flames has is better than the Oilers.

There are only two reasons the Flames weren't right beside the Oilers in the standings last season and it's not what you think is a superior defensive core. 1. The Flames are a veteran team and have more experience on how to win the closer games. 2. Kiprusoff.

Most teams in the league do not have your standard of a #1D. You seem to be judging JBow on his offense and not his minutes played or work ethic.

I think you are simplifying the Flames' record. Kipper does win games in spite of the rest of the team. On the other hand, there were a number of games that were decided by a coach. Games that the backup should have started; games that he shut the offense down after a 2 goal lead; games where he refused to line match, etc. With that in mind, I don't buy the equal team argument.

[ConnorFutureGM]

I'm judging Bouwmeester as a #2 defenceman as saying he is nowhere close to being considered as a Norris candidate.

As far as Kiprusoff goes, a lot of different people from NHL analysts to Feaster give Kiprusoff credit for being as competitive as they were last season. The Flames let in 13 goals less than the Oilers which isn't that much but the Flames also had 10 more shots against than the Oilers. That should indicate the Flames and Oilers had a big difference in goaltending. There are different ways to calculate on how big a difference Kiprusoff was in net that would give varying results but either way, he made a difference.

Getting back to the experience as a factor, the Flames won 19 1 goal games which is tied for 15th. The Oilers won 12 which is 3rd last, one more game than last place. The Flames only had 5 1 goal loses which is tied for 2nd. The Oilers had 10 which is tied for 12th. The Flames had the 2nd most loser points at 16. The Oilers are tied for 13th at 10 loser points.

I give the Flames credit, winning close games is important for any team that wants to win it all. It is something that should come with experience and when the Oilers gain that experience, the Oilers should be good enough to be a playoff team.

[Keyro]

I gave the edge to the Flames over the Oilers on Whitney vs Bouwmeester. Neither team has a #1 defenceman. IMO #1 defencemen are Norris calibur defencemen.

I can tell you can not be fair in a comparison judgement if you think every defenceman the Flames has is better than the Oilers.

There are only two reasons the Flames weren't right beside the Oilers in the standings last season and it's not what you think is a superior defensive core. 1. The Flames are a veteran team and have more experience on how to win the closer games. 2. Kiprusoff.

Bouwmeester is a 1b defender. He can anchor that top pairing just fine, but would greatly improve with a more solid partner on D.

If anyone had to choose it would not be Smid over Gio, Petry over wideman and certainly not Whitney over Bouw. This is just plain common sense. You can present your data anyway you want but it won't make your D any better

Also kipper was probably the main reason we weren't right beside you in the standings. Not the "experience to win the close games". That's not a thing. You realize how many games we lost it extra time right? Those are the close ones

[ConnorFutureGM]

Bouwmeester is a 1b defender. He can anchor that top pairing just fine, but would greatly improve with a more solid partner on D.

If anyone had to choose it would not be Smid over Gio, Petry over wideman and certainly not Whitney over Bouw. This is just plain common sense. You can present your data anyway you want but it won't make your D any better

Also kipper was probably the main reason we weren't right beside you in the standings. Not the "experience to win the close games". That's not a thing. You realize how many games we lost it extra time right? Those are the close ones

I'm saying Bouwmeester is a #2 as in a sidekick to a #1 defenceman on a 1st pairing. IMO there aren't many #1 defencemen: Karlsson, Weber, Chara, Suter, Doughty, Keith, Pietrangelo, Ekmann-Larsson, Pronger (if healthy), Letang (maybe)

If Whitney doesn't return to form than Bouwmeester over Whitney every time but if Whitney can gain his old form back, he can be a dominant offensive defenceman.

Smid is better at defending than Giordano. Giordano has a lot more offence thus far in his career, it wouldn't be unanimous. I disagree with Wideman over Petry. I was being generous when I said he was a #3 but he is more of a specialist who is a liability 5 on 5. Not only is Petry not a liability, he plays against the other teams' best players and still does well. Wideman had three times as more PP time than Petry which makes a big difference in points from a defenceman.

Kiprusoff is the main reason but experience is another. One could say that the Flames left a lot of points on the board by all those OT/shootout losses but one could also say the experience kept the Flames in the game while it was tight during regulation.

[jjgallow]

I gave the edge to the Flames over the Oilers on Whitney vs Bouwmeester. Neither team has a #1 defenceman. IMO #1 defencemen are Norris calibur defencemen.

I can tell you can not be fair in a comparison judgement if you think every defenceman the Flames has is better than the Oilers.

There are only two reasons the Flames weren't right beside the Oilers in the standings last season and it's not what you think is a superior defensive core. 1. The Flames are a veteran team and have more experience on how to win the closer games. 2. Kiprusoff.

Okay, I realize that much (all) of what I post in this thread is biased, but what do you expect with an Oilers thread on a Flames forum? We are only here for amusement. And you are here...because you like counterproductive arguements. Which I appreciate.

But, let me just take my biased hat off for a second, and put my unbiased hat on:

No. Same answer here. As nicely and kindly as I can put it, you can't seriously compare Calgary's defense core to Edmonton's. At all. Ever.

You can't expect a serious comparison with the Flames.

I've personally no patience for the arguement that the Flames are just Kipper. I'll give you one stat, and that's it.

Flames defensemen: 25 goals, 125 points

Edmonton's defensemen: 21 goals, 105 points.

That, when Edmonton admittedly had more offense last year.

Was Kipper responsible for that too?

Done.

[gsp393]

I'm saying Bouwmeester is a #2 as in a sidekick to a #1 defenceman on a 1st pairing. IMO there aren't many #1 defencemen: Karlsson, Weber, Chara, Suter, Doughty, Keith, Pietrangelo, Ekmann-Larsson, Pronger (if healthy), Letang (maybe)

If Whitney doesn't return to form than Bouwmeester over Whitney every time but if Whitney can gain his old form back, he can be a dominant offensive defenceman.

Smid is better at defending than Giordano. Giordano has a lot more offence thus far in his career, it wouldn't be unanimous. I disagree with Wideman over Petry. I was being generous when I said he was a #3 but he is more of a specialist who is a liability 5 on 5. Not only is Petry not a liability, he plays against the other teams' best players and still does well. Wideman had three times as more PP time than Petry which makes a big difference in points from a defenceman.

Kiprusoff is the main reason but experience is another. One could say that the Flames left a lot of points on the board by all those OT/shootout losses but one could also say the experience kept the Flames in the game while it was tight during regulation.

Thats like saying stastny or duchene or krejci etc aren't capable #1 centers because there not art ross candidates or hart winners. Norris was dominated by lidstrom for years so to say 1 guy hasnt been top 3 dman while playing for only non playoff teams so hes not a #1 is a pretty weak arguement. Bouws not a franchise dman like the norris candidates but hes a solid dman capable of playing in any situation against any competition for nearly half the game.

[woodendoug]

Sorry. Your "struggling to succeed", "trying to achieve success" are too politically correct for this old fart. (As to the terms you call derogatory they are all truths.)

Oilers management stated years ago that they had tried everything else & saw the only way left was by drafting & (hopefully) retaining players. Many (mostly younger) fans of Edmonton are over zealous in their support of that & compare unknowns to the greats before the player has laced up his skates in the NHL.

I seldom respond that way to what I consider serious fans of the Oilers but feel quite free to use responses like that to those that expouse that is the only way to have a winning team (you know the 1s I refer too). To some Oiler posters every player drafted/traded for becomes a core player that can't be moved for less then a huge overpayment. (During the dynasty years Sather would regularly tweak the roster. Willy Lindstrom for Boschman type deals. The Isles did that during their glory years & he followed suit. It worked.)

Until proven otherwise you have a clean sheet. There are a few good Oiler posters that are respected but there are a few that are cartoons due to their adulation & simple belief that every team should follow the game plan the Oilers were forced into. The respect you gain/lose is up to you. Reason instead of blind belief that the Edmonton braintrust holds the key to all that matters in hockey gains respect.

I've said before that I want the BoA to be the toughest, most exciting battle in hockey again. When they met to represent the west you always felt the survivor deserved the Cup.

OK well said point taken

[PokernHockey]

I can tell you can not be fair in a comparison judgement

Conner is right. anyone who disagrees with his analysis MUST be biased. after all, it is irrefutably accurate and complete! With that in mind, I am going to use his metrics to decide which is better, to save space i am deleting all but who wins when:

I had a very similar discussion last year on these boards. I compared similar type defencemen but I don't think that defines how good a team's defence really is. I think a better way would be seeing comparing the levels of defencemen.

#1 defencemen = Tie (due to Zero on both)

#2 defencemen = Flames

#3 defencemen = Oilers

#4 defencemen = Oilers

#5 defenceman = Flames

#6 defenceman =Flames

#7/extra defencemenOilers (Not because they are better, but based on Quantity... because that is what everyone wants, a plethora of guys who sit in the press box)

very simply...

2>3 (flames)

4>5 (oilers)

6>7 (flames)

The flames have the advantage 66% of the time.

Wait, that is unfair. a number 3/4 is WAAAAYYY better then a number 5/6... Lets look at it using a basic number ranking system to reward them for the increased importance... since there are seven positions, lets give them reverse points (better teams #1 gets seven points, #2 6, etc.). You can multiply it by whatever factor you want, the result is the same.

so the flames get 6+3+2 = 11

OIlers get 5+4+1 = 10

Hmmmm... 11>10... flames still have an advantage.

And yet from the (unbiased) analysis, of each teams strength at each D position, connor gets... the teams d is equal

we flames fans need to start being more unbiased.

[ConnorFutureGM]

Okay, I realize that much (all) of what I post in this thread is biased, but what do you expect with an Oilers thread on a Flames forum? We are only here for amusement. And you are here...because you like counterproductive arguements. Which I appreciate.

But, let me just take my biased hat off for a second, and put my unbiased hat on:

No. Same answer here. As nicely and kindly as I can put it, you can't seriously compare Calgary's defense core to Edmonton's. At all. Ever.

You can't expect a serious comparison with the Flames.

I've personally no patience for the arguement that the Flames are just Kipper. I'll give you one stat, and that's it.

Flames defensemen: 25 goals, 125 points

Edmonton's defensemen: 21 goals, 105 points.

That, when Edmonton admittedly had more offense last year.

Was Kipper responsible for that too?

Done.

What's that stat line supposed to indicate?

Kings defence had 118 points last season, are the Flames' defensive core better than theirs?

Thats like saying stastny or duchene or krejci etc aren't capable #1 centers because there not art ross candidates or hart winners. Norris was dominated by lidstrom for years so to say 1 guy hasnt been top 3 dman while playing for only non playoff teams so hes not a #1 is a pretty weak arguement. Bouws not a franchise dman like the norris candidates but hes a solid dman capable of playing in any situation against any competition for nearly half the game.

It's semantics.

[ConnorFutureGM]

Conner is right. anyone who disagrees with his analysis MUST be biased. after all, it is irrefutably accurate and complete! With that in mind, I am going to use his metrics to decide which is better, to save space i am deleting all but who wins when:

very simply...

2>3 (flames)

4>5 (oilers)

6>7 (flames)

The flames have the advantage 66% of the time.

Wait, that is unfair. a number 3/4 is WAAAAYYY better then a number 5/6... Lets look at it using a basic number ranking system to reward them for the increased importance... since there are seven positions, lets give them reverse points (better teams #1 gets seven points, #2 6, etc.). You can multiply it by whatever factor you want, the result is the same.

so the flames get 6+3+2 = 11

OIlers get 5+4+1 = 10

Hmmmm... 11>10... flames still have an advantage.

And yet from the (unbiased) analysis, of each teams strength at each D position, connor gets... the teams d is equal

we flames fans need to start being more unbiased.

What did I say at the beginning?

Opinions will obviously vary on the defence but the defence is definitely close when comparing the two teams.

I said it was close. I didn't say they were exactly even. If someone states that the Flames' defence is far and above the Oilers' it makes me question their integrity of being unbiased.

The Oilers defence isn't strong and neither is the Flames'. Flames strength lies within the depth on the wings and in net. The Oilers have a decent amount of scoring upfront but Dubnyk has yet to prove himself as a starter.

IMO both teams will make moves after the CBA is finalized so we aren't even dealing with finished products yet.