Oilers

[Crzydrvr]

But...would you trade Jo-Bo for two top-10 draft picks? In what's possibly the best draft this decade?

What? It more likely to be one of the most average drafts of the decade. It's better than 2001 and 2002, but worse than the 2003, 2010, 2009, 2008, 2011 , 2006 drafts. It's probably closer to 2007 and 2004 than it is to the drafts of the last few seasons.

[ConnorFutureGM]

What? It more likely to be one of the most average drafts of the decade. It's better than 2001 and 2002, but worse than the 2003, 2010, 2009, 2008, 2011 , 2006 drafts. It's probably closer to 2007 and 2004 than it is to the drafts of the last few seasons.

I've heard this draft is really deep. There is always drop offs at certain numbers.

Picks:

Elite talent: 1-2 then a drop off to:

Could be elite: 3-10

Then I think it goes roughly from 11 to the 2nd round. This draft may not be high on elite talent but its deep in players that could become impact NHlers.

[Bastardsonofmacinnis]

You presume that teams are going to offer them contracts which may or may not happen but you also presume that the Oilers will let them go to RFA status which is doubtful.

We'll see what happens come July 1st. If one thing thing that Oilers brass has proved over the years it's their ability to plan long ahead.

I think it's very safe to say that these guys will be getting serious offers from other teams. Only an idiot would say those guys aren't extremely valuable. BTW, It's not about "letting them go" once they become rfa. It's whether they feel like signing with your team again. Most players don't like staring up the standings. Some are even willing to not play at all if it means leaving town. Remember Turris? I'm not saying something extreme like that is going to happen but you never know. About the Oilers brass planning ahead...I think they had something different envisioned for themselves at this point in time, something like winning. Anyway, I think anyone saying you guys need to go on a shopping spree July 1st has it on the money. Watching the Oilers lose again next year wouldn't even be enjoyable for me anymore. It would just be excruciating to have to watch so much talent left out to dry, and they are sooo close to being great as it is. Just a few crucial pieces could see them be as amazing as they have been at times.

[C_worthy]

We'll see what happens come July 1st. If one thing thing that Oilers brass has proved over the years it's their ability to plan long ahead.

I actually laughed out loud when I read this.

The Oilers have 2 8th place finishes and 7 failed seasons in the last 9 campaigns, including dead last twice. And they are poised for another lottery pick again this year.

Please enlighten us with some evidence - any evidence whatsoever - proving the Oilers' ability to plan long term.

[ConnorFutureGM]

I actually laughed out loud when I read this.

The Oilers have 2 8th place finishes and 7 failed seasons in the last 9 campaigns, including dead last twice. And they are poised for another lottery pick again this year.

Please enlighten us with some evidence - any evidence whatsoever - proving the Oilers' ability to plan long term.

Prior to the lockout the Oilers were a budget team and had to manage their assets accordingly.

Going into the lockout the Oilers were poised to be one of the few teams to be able to spend if a cap occured.

Lowe was able to launch the Oilers into the new CBA well with the acquisition of Pronger along with Peca and other players like Roloson and Spacek at the deadline.

Pronger wanting out of Edmonton after one season threw a lot of the teams strucutre and planning out the window. They never recovered from that. They tried to make an attempt to get back to the playoffs but when team brass saw they were spinning their wheels, they threw in the towel of trying to be competitive for a chance at the playoffs and decided to rebuild.

The Flames are going down a very similar path but refuse to see their wheels spinning. Rebuilding through the draft takes patience and some bad times but you are going to have to endure a lot slower of a death trying to reuild via free agency. Teams always overpay in free agency and seldomly do actual top players hit the market. If they do teams would have to vastly overpay for their services. Edmonton Oilers brass see this, Flames don't.

[Bastardsonofmacinnis]

Prior to the lockout the Oilers were a budget team and had to manage their assets accordingly.

Going into the lockout the Oilers were poised to be one of the few teams to be able to spend if a cap occured.

Lowe was able to launch the Oilers into the new CBA well with the acquisition of Pronger along with Peca and other players like Roloson and Spacek at the deadline.

Pronger wanting out of Edmonton after one season threw a lot of the teams strucutre and planning out the window. They never recovered from that. They tried to make an attempt to get back to the playoffs but when team brass saw they were spinning their wheels, they threw in the towel of trying to be competitive for a chance at the playoffs and decided to rebuild.

The Flames are going down a very similar path but refuse to see their wheels spinning. Rebuilding through the draft takes patience and some bad times but you are going to have to endure a lot slower of a death trying to reuild via free agency. Teams always overpay in free agency and seldomly do actual top players hit the market. If they do teams would have to vastly overpay for their services. Edmonton Oilers brass see this, Flames don't.

For one thing, Calgary doesn't have to press the panic button. Our players wives aren't telling them to leave for sunnier climates. Another thing is that there are ways to sustain through a slow internal maintenance rather than doing a full rebuild. Why replace the whole ship when all you need is a new sail, sort of thing. That's what I think the Flames are doing and I'm fine with it as that's what many good teams are doing and have done in the past. So you're right. The flames brass don't see what the Oilers brass see. For the most part the only teams who are really overpaying via free agency are the ones who need to hit the cap floor or teams that are a little desperate. Definitely the Flames have a few holes to fill. But,t hey aren't desperate. I can names a few teams that are though.....

[ConnorFutureGM]

For one thing, Calgary doesn't have to press the panic button. Our players wives aren't telling them to leave for sunnier climates. Another thing is that there are ways to sustain through a slow internal maintenance rather than doing a full rebuild. Why replace the whole ship when all you need is a new sail, sort of thing. That's what I think the Flames are doing and I'm fine with it as that's what many good teams are doing and have done in the past. So you're right. The flames brass don't see what the Oilers brass see. For the most part the only teams who are really overpaying via free agency are the ones who need to hit the cap floor or teams that are a little desperate. Definitely the Flames have a few holes to fill. But,t hey aren't desperate. I can names a few teams that are though.....

I would say the Flames are desperate to make the playoffs this season.

[Flyerfan52]

Prior to the lockout the Oilers were a budget team and had to manage their assets accordingly.

Going into the lockout the Oilers were poised to be one of the few teams to be able to spend if a cap occured.

Lowe was able to launch the Oilers into the new CBA well with the acquisition of Pronger along with Peca and other players like Roloson and Spacek at the deadline.

Pronger wanting out of Edmonton after one season threw a lot of the teams strucutre and planning out the window. They never recovered from that. They tried to make an attempt to get back to the playoffs but when team brass saw they were spinning their wheels, they threw in the towel of trying to be competitive for a chance at the playoffs and decided to rebuild.

The Flames are going down a very similar path but refuse to see their wheels spinning. Rebuilding through the draft takes patience and some bad times but you are going to have to endure a lot slower of a death trying to reuild via free agency. Teams always overpay in free agency and seldomly do actual top players hit the market. If they do teams would have to vastly overpay for their services. Edmonton Oilers brass see this, Flames don't.

Pronger wasn't the only 1 that departed that year (just the most publicized). Peca left as did Ryan Smyth.

Roloson was about the only good player that stayed but the Oilers cast him aside to sign Habby. Great long term planning & showing players loyalty is appreciated.

[ConnorFutureGM]

Pronger wasn't the only 1 that departed that year (just the most publicized). Peca left as did Ryan Smyth.

Roloson was about the only good player that stayed but the Oilers cast him aside to sign Habby. Great long term planning & showing players loyalty is appreciated.

Roloson wanted a two year deal, the Oilers were offering a one year deal because they knew that his play was going to eventually deteriorate. They were one year off the mark on that one.

Smyth was traded at the deadline because the Oilers were well out of the playoffs and they couldn't agree on contract number.

Peca left via free agency.

How does any of this prove anything either way? The Oilers keep these players and what happens? They lose them all and this happens. You have no idea how the Oilers would be if the players stayed and if they did they may be in a worse off position than they are today.

Then someone on these boards will come with the brilliant comment; "How can the Oilers be any worse. They were last place the last 2 years." It's called rebuilding. I would take and most outsiders would take the Oilers roster over Flames roster. I would take the Oilers roster over any other teams roster that isn't a contender or heading to becoming a contender.

PS The Oilers are only 7 points back of the Flames with a better goal differential.

[C_worthy]

Roloson wanted a two year deal, the Oilers were offering a one year deal because they knew that his play was going to eventually deteriorate. They were one year off the mark on that one.

Then someone on these boards will come with the brilliant comment; "How can the Oilers be any worse. They were last place the last 2 years." It's called rebuilding. I would take and most outsiders would take the Oilers roster over Flames roster. I would take the Oilers roster over any other teams roster that isn't a contender or heading to becoming a contender.

Not one comment you made even remotely came close to attempting to illustrate your claim that the Oiler brass have been good long term planners.

If one player leaving (Pronger) causes their plans to be thrown out the window, that is hardly what anyone who knows anything about managing large groups would call good management and planning.

As for Roloson, he wanted a two year deal and the Oilers would only do one (nice planning). Then they were forced to go out and get Habby, who they subsequently offered a 4 year deal (nice planning).

NONE of their plans have worked out. NONE. That is why they have drafted first overall the last two years.

You would take the Oilers roster over any other team that isn't a contender. They have sucked for 6 YEARS! You conveniently forget (or ignore) that fact. All the Oilers have is draft picks - a consolation prize for sucking.

Enough of that though, let's get back to the point:

The Flames haven't struggled because they employed players in their 30s and have tried to be competitive every year - that is a perfectly good strategy and Flames management should be commended for their commitment to winning and to excellence.

No, the Flames problem was a period of terrible drafting and player development. This conversation started when someone said the Flames shouldn't resign Joker. That person was wrong - Joker is a very good player who will resign at a discount and only a fool of a GM cough*Tambi-Lowe*cough wouldn't do that. Being competitive every year is not why the cupboards went bare. The cupboards went bare because the Flames drafted terribly for a while and then traded picks to try and keep it going.

However, with a new commitment to the draft and developing players, they are well on their way to restocking the shelves - and they never had to suck balls in order to do it.

Those that think a total rebuild is the only answer - or even the best answer - are wrong. A total rebuild is only the answer when a franchise completely fails from top to bottom and there is nothing left for them to do but accept the charity of high draft picks. That is NEVER a good strategy. The Flames will not have to do that. One day, several years from now you will come to see this.

[ConnorFutureGM]

Not one comment you made even remotely came close to attempting to illustrate your claim that the Oiler brass have been good long term planners.

If one player leaving (Pronger) causes their plans to be thrown out the window, that is hardly what anyone who knows anything about managing large groups would call good management and planning.

As for Roloson, he wanted a two year deal and the Oilers would only do one (nice planning). Then they were forced to go out and get Habby, who they subsequently offered a 4 year deal (nice planning).

NONE of their plans have worked out. NONE. That is why they have drafted first overall the last two years.

You would take the Oilers roster over any other team that isn't a contender. They have sucked for 6 YEARS! You conveniently forget (or ignore) that fact. All the Oilers have is draft picks - a consolation prize for sucking.

Enough of that though, let's get back to the point:

The Flames haven't struggled because they employed players in their 30s and have tried to be competitive every year - that is a perfectly good strategy and Flames management should be commended for their commitment to winning and to excellence.

No, the Flames problem was a period of terrible drafting and player development. This conversation started when someone said the Flames shouldn't resign Joker. That person was wrong - Joker is a very good player who will resign at a discount and only a fool of a GM cough*Tambi-Lowe*cough wouldn't do that. Being competitive every year is not why the cupboards went bare. The cupboards went bare because the Flames drafted terribly for a while and then traded picks to try and keep it going.

However, with a new commitment to the draft and developing players, they are well on their way to restocking the shelves - and they never had to suck balls in order to do it.

Those that think a total rebuild is the only answer - or even the best answer - are wrong. A total rebuild is only the answer when a franchise completely fails from top to bottom and there is nothing left for them to do but accept the charity of high draft picks. That is NEVER a good strategy. The Flames will not have to do that. One day, several years from now you will come to see this.

Your one sided Flamin view strikes again.

Was it not you telling me the value of Bouwmeester? Several of your colleagues have stated that the Flames would be worse than the Oilers right now without Bouwmeester. Imagine if Bouwmeester suddenly asked for a trade. How can anyone expect that? The return is going to be small, maybe a mid to late 1st rounder and a prospect. The Flames won't be able to replace Bouwmeester anytime soon. You also have to recognize through your bias that 06 Pronger is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better than Bouwmeester.

Mod Edit: Please do not comment on player's personal lives, or comment on rumors that are not supported by fact.

The original plan fell through because of Pronger. The following moves up until the 2009-10 season was doing what the Flames are doing; trying to scrap together a good enough team to just make the playoffs.

The Oilers are building a team through the draft. The Flames are gluing together scraps via trade and free agency. Go on any other team's board and ask what roster they would rather have between Calgary and Edmonton. I dare you.

"Flames management should be commended for their commitment to winning and to excellence." That is the most asinine, ridiculous and hilarious statement I've seen on the internet. Are you the mayor of Calgary or Feaster's wife?

Now the drafting. I don't think the Flames have no prospects because they're being "competitive", I think it's because they put an emphasis on the short term with the sacrafice of the long term. NEWS FLASH: they're still doing that. They just traded away their second 2nd rounder this year and a decent prospect for a player who has less goals than the player they traded.

Hey man, the longer the Flames hold off the rebuild the longer they will go without contending for a cup. You will see this when many other rebuilt teams go on to win the Stanley Cup before the Flames.

[C_worthy]

There you go again claiming the rebuild was planned.

It was not planned - they shat the bed and then called it a rebuild.

[Bastardsonofmacinnis]

Your one sided Flamin view strikes again.

Was it not you telling me the value of Bouwmeester? Several of your colleagues have stated that the Flames would be worse than the Oilers right now without Bouwmeester. Imagine if Bouwmeester suddenly asked for a trade. How can anyone expect that? The return is going to be small, maybe a mid to late 1st rounder and a prospect. The Flames won't be able to replace Bouwmeester anytime soon. You also have to recognize through your bias that 06 Pronger is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better than Bouwmeester. No team can predict a player cheating on his wife. END OF STORY.

The original plan fell through because of Pronger. The following moves up until the 2009-10 season was doing what the Flames are doing; trying to scrap together a good enough team to just make the playoffs.

The Oilers are building a team through the draft. The Flames are gluing together scraps via trade and free agency. Go on any other team's board and ask what roster they would rather have between Calgary and Edmonton. I dare you.

"Flames management should be commended for their commitment to winning and to excellence." That is the most asinine, ridiculous and hilarious statement I've seen on the internet. Are you the mayor of Calgary or Feaster's wife?

Now the drafting. I don't think the Flames have no prospects because they're being "competitive", I think it's because they put an emphasis on the short term with the sacrafice of the long term. NEWS FLASH: they're still doing that. They just traded away their second 2nd rounder this year and a decent prospect for a player who has less goals than the player they traded.

Hey man, the longer the Flames hold off the rebuild the longer they will go without contending for a cup. You will see this when many other rebuilt teams go on to win the Stanley Cup before the Flames.

The original plan fell through because of Pronger? Let's pretend you're right. It still doesn't mean a team should go into a tail spin due to one player leaving town. So what happened about the 5 or 6 other plans they had since then? You can't honestly tell me they planned on sucking for this long. That's not a plan. That's being a strawberrye organization.

[DirtyDeeds]

Hey man, the longer the Flames hold off the rebuild the longer they will go without contending for a cup. You will see this when many other rebuilt teams go on to win the Stanley Cup before the Flames.

As much as you would like to believe we are doing nothing towards a rebuild our "Refit" is well underway. Just look at our roster and see the new faces already in place. Then look at our roster and see all the youth we have brought up this season. The go over to Cap geek and see how we only have 14 contracts extending past the end of this year. *knocks on Conners head* Hello?? Hello anybody home?

I understand you have a lot of trouble putting 2 and 2 together but please stop with the Flames need to start a rebuild garbage. We don't, we are already refitting, We have a natural huge change coming at end of year anyway. Your view of what we need to do sucks.

[Crzydrvr]

I've heard this draft is really deep. There is always drop offs at certain numbers.

Picks:

Elite talent: 1-2 then a drop off to:

Could be elite: 3-10

Then I think it goes roughly from 11 to the 2nd round. This draft may not be high on elite talent but its deep in players that could become impact NHlers.

Just checking, but what's your definition of impact NHLer? Cuz if you're hunting for a top 6 or top 4 player in this draft, you're in the wrong year. Try 2009 or 2010 for that.

Around the 20-25 pick range, the talent level drops off from risky potential top 3 forwards/top 2 D and potential "safer" top 6 forwards/top 4 D to top 9 forwards and bottom 3 defensemen. Unless you want to go for a "risky top 6 forward or top 4 D" which like its namesake is very risky.

All drafts have drops, and if you look at where the drop off is it's not a bad draft per say, but the AMOUNT of drop in talent is just massive compared to other years. Take for example Kelowna Rockets forward Colton Sissons. He's widely projected to be taken second round, but there are a few people who think he's first round material. You ask scouts and they say "he could be a real good third liner someday". Does that sound like that's something most teams want to draft in the 30-45 range? Tom Wilson out of Plymouth in the OHL is massive at 6'4" and almost 200 pounds, but his numbers are just not where they could be and he doesn't have a mean streak at all. Another projected 3-4th line role player, also ranked quite highly.

I don't know about you but personally I prefer guys with potential. It's not like there isn't any at all in that mid round range, guys like Tim Bozon will in all likelihood be sandwiched there as well. I just don't feel that the draft is as strong as people make it out to be, either in terms of depth or overall top end players.

Your one sided Flamin view strikes again.

....

The Oilers are building a team through the draft. The Flames are gluing together scraps via trade and free agency. Go on any other team's board and ask what roster they would rather have between Calgary and Edmonton. I dare you.

"Flames management should be commended for their commitment to winning and to excellence." That is the most asinine, ridiculous and hilarious statement I've seen on the internet. Are you the mayor of Calgary or Feaster's wife?

....

Hey man, the longer the Flames hold off the rebuild the longer they will go without contending for a cup. You will see this when many other rebuilt teams go on to win the Stanley Cup before the Flames.

We may be biased, but at least we don't shove it down other teams' throats....why do you want us to be like you guys so much? It's not like you've shown anything beyond some real good potential. And unfortunately, when used in the current fashion all that does is promote a lot of offer sheet discussion. You act like you're all better than us. How? Projections? Nobody projected the Blue Jackets to finish bottom of the table this year....

Boston's core members are Chara, Tim Thomas and a bunch of young centers. Krejci is a second rounder, and Bergeron, Seguin was drafted with a pick acquired from a bad team, Lucic was a second rounder, and Tuukka Rask was a goalie traded for the venerable Andrew Raycroft. The largest part of their team and the second-biggest reason for their turnaround was the arrival of Chara and Savard through free agency. The first biggest being the development of Thomas, Lucic, Krejci, & Bergeron. You can call Peter Chiarelli a genius, but he's very lucky that they turned out the way they did because no one could have predicted that 5 years ago.

Vancouver had Luongo, the Sedins, Naslund, Morrison, and still missed the playoffs 2 of 3 years. How'd they turn into a top team in the NHL? The development of the Sedins and Kesler, Edler, Bieksa, and Burrows, and the continued veteran presence of Luongo and Salo. The highest drafted player who is younger than 30 on their roster is Cody Hodgson at 10. And he looks to be another big piece for the Canucks.

Detroit is constantly retooling, the Rangers are constantly retooling, San Jose never built its team off of high draft picks, all their core players are either traded for, free agent signings or mid-to-late-level draft picks (the exception being Patrick Marleau, who may as well be a mid-level draft pick). Philadelphia retooled after their horrendous 2006-07 season (with veterans like Timonen, Hartnell and Briere being brought in that offseason to go along with Carter and Richards). Nashville had a single playoffless season and have lost free agents due to their budget, but they have made good trades and their all-star goalie is a former 9th round pick. Every team that is currently in the top 4 of each conference is a retooling team, not a rebuilding one, with the exception of Florida/Washington (who would miss the playoffs if not in such a weak division).

Pittsburgh and Chicago and Washington are the latest success stories for the rebuild. The Pens are the poster for a rebuilding squad, but do you think they'd win a Cup with either Taylor Hall, Jordan Eberle, or RNH instead of Crosby? No! Crosby was the ticket to pushing them over the hill, and he's a once in a generation talent. The Pens would not have won the Cup had they drafted Bobby Ryan or Jack Johnson, Malkin and Staal alone will not lead them to the mountaintop. Chicago has run into depth issues because their top guys are making all of the dough and are basically a better version of the Oilers complete with better defense and an average goalie. The Caps had a great 3 seasons but they've just fallen off the cliff even with arguably the most talented team they've ever had on paper.

I think it's great that management wants to build a la Boston or Toronto, where winning is the biggest thing and losing is not an option. The Oilers are like a streetfighter and the NHL is the streetfighting ring, they keep getting tossed icepacks but the fact is they keep getting beaten the crap out of by every other team to the point where that icepack is not going to do much for you. Wheras at least the Flames occasionally force their way back into the fight. Other fighters respect you more if you're the guy getting back up time after time instead of the guy who lies down and just takes the hits. The fact that you mock us just shows your mentality is already that of being the guy who sits their taking the shots.

Philly turned it around after just one season. Vancouver turned it around after just 1 season. Boston turned it around after just 2 seasons. The Rangers missed the playoffs and then turned it around after a single season. Conversely, Florida and the Isles have time and again received plenty of high picks and top prospects and have nothing to show for it. Florida at least is trying to make a go of it right now, but they're going to be in a lot of trouble over the next few years when Kulikov, Ellerby, Gudbranson, Huberdeau, Howden, and Markstrom are up for renewals. The Isles have just been terribly mismanaged ever since the end of the Bill Torrey/Al Arbour/Denis Potvin days.

You can argue in favour of a rebuild all you want, fact is most teams would go the retool route over the rebuild. Sure there are failures (Columbus, Buffalo and Carolina to name a few) but the fact is teams like Ottawa, Phoenix, Minnesota, and Colorado have all retooled rather than tank like everyone thought they would and every one of them is within a playoff race right now. Everyone thought they would just tank and rebuild, well they didn't. They missed the playoffs once or twice and proceeded to come back in force.

[ConnorFutureGM]

There you go again claiming the rebuild was planned.

It was not planned - they shat the bed and then called it a rebuild.

The Oilers started the 2009-10 season horribley and they had an option: try to salvage the season in an attempt to make the playoffs or recognize that the current core of the team will never be championship material and start the process of developing a championship core group of players.

They decided the latter is the best course of action. Many pundits see the Flames in a very similar situation with a core that is not of Stanley Cup material but Feaster and company keep spinning their tires in qucik sand.

The original plan fell through because of Pronger? Let's pretend you're right. It still doesn't mean a team should go into a tail spin due to one player leaving town. So what happened about the 5 or 6 other plans they had since then? You can't honestly tell me they planned on sucking for this long. That's not a plan. That's being a strawberrye organization.

I said in my post above that the Oilers were doing the same thing that the Flames are now; trying to peice together a team good enough to make the playoffs without having a legitimate shot of ever winning.

As much as you would like to believe we are doing nothing towards a rebuild our "Refit" is well underway. Just look at our roster and see the new faces already in place. Then look at our roster and see all the youth we have brought up this season. The go over to Cap geek and see how we only have 14 contracts extending past the end of this year. *knocks on Conners head* Hello?? Hello anybody home?

I understand you have a lot of trouble putting 2 and 2 together but please stop with the Flames need to start a rebuild garbage. We don't, we are already refitting, We have a natural huge change coming at end of year anyway. Your view of what we need to do sucks.

Good luck rebuilding through free agency. Did you see how much Wisniewski made as a UFA last off season. UFAs are hisotrically overpaid and it's rare that star players even make it to UFA status which I said earlier.

The Flames don't have to do the same thing that the Oilers are doing. I was picturing something more similar to what Burke has done with the Leafs but if Flames ownership isn't willing to spend Feaster is going to have a real hard time rebuilding and competeing simultaneously and on the fly.

[ConnorFutureGM]

1. Just checking, but what's your definition of impact NHLer? Cuz if you're hunting for a top 6 or top 4 player in this draft, you're in the wrong year. Try 2009 or 2010 for that.

2. Around the 20-25 pick range, the talent level drops off from risky potential top 3 forwards/top 2 D and potential "safer" top 6 forwards/top 4 D to top 9 forwards and bottom 3 defensemen. Unless you want to go for a "risky top 6 forward or top 4 D" which like its namesake is very risky.

3. All drafts have drops, and if you look at where the drop off is it's not a bad draft per say, but the AMOUNT of drop in talent is just massive compared to other years. Take for example Kelowna Rockets forward Colton Sissons. He's widely projected to be taken second round, but there are a few people who think he's first round material. You ask scouts and they say "he could be a real good third liner someday". Does that sound like that's something most teams want to draft in the 30-45 range? Tom Wilson out of Plymouth in the OHL is massive at 6'4" and almost 200 pounds, but his numbers are just not where they could be and he doesn't have a mean streak at all. Another projected 3-4th line role player, also ranked quite highly.

4. I don't know about you but personally I prefer guys with potential. It's not like there isn't any at all in that mid round range, guys like Tim Bozon will in all likelihood be sandwiched there as well. I just don't feel that the draft is as strong as people make it out to be, either in terms of depth or overall top end players.

5. We may be biased, but at least we don't shove it down other teams' throats....why do you want us to be like you guys so much? It's not like you've shown anything beyond some real good potential. And unfortunately, when used in the current fashion all that does is promote a lot of offer sheet discussion. You act like you're all better than us. How? Projections? Nobody projected the Blue Jackets to finish bottom of the table this year....

6. Boston's core members are Chara, Tim Thomas and a bunch of young centers. Krejci is a second rounder, and Bergeron, Seguin was drafted with a pick acquired from a bad team, Lucic was a second rounder, and Tuukka Rask was a goalie traded for the venerable Andrew Raycroft. The largest part of their team and the second-biggest reason for their turnaround was the arrival of Chara and Savard through free agency. The first biggest being the development of Thomas, Lucic, Krejci, & Bergeron. You can call Peter Chiarelli a genius, but he's very lucky that they turned out the way they did because no one could have predicted that 5 years ago.

7. Vancouver had Luongo, the Sedins, Naslund, Morrison, and still missed the playoffs 2 of 3 years. How'd they turn into a top team in the NHL? The development of the Sedins and Kesler, Edler, Bieksa, and Burrows, and the continued veteran presence of Luongo and Salo. The highest drafted player who is younger than 30 on their roster is Cody Hodgson at 10. And he looks to be another big piece for the Canucks.

8. Detroit is constantly retooling, the Rangers are constantly retooling, San Jose never built its team off of high draft picks, all their core players are either traded for, free agent signings or mid-to-late-level draft picks (the exception being Patrick Marleau, who may as well be a mid-level draft pick). Philadelphia retooled after their horrendous 2006-07 season (with veterans like Timonen, Hartnell and Briere being brought in that offseason to go along with Carter and Richards). Nashville had a single playoffless season and have lost free agents due to their budget, but they have made good trades and their all-star goalie is a former 9th round pick. Every team that is currently in the top 4 of each conference is a retooling team, not a rebuilding one, with the exception of Florida/Washington (who would miss the playoffs if not in such a weak division).

9. Pittsburgh and Chicago and Washington are the latest success stories for the rebuild. The Pens are the poster for a rebuilding squad, but do you think they'd win a Cup with either Taylor Hall, Jordan Eberle, or RNH instead of Crosby? No! Crosby was the ticket to pushing them over the hill, and he's a once in a generation talent. The Pens would not have won the Cup had they drafted Bobby Ryan or Jack Johnson, Malkin and Staal alone will not lead them to the mountaintop. Chicago has run into depth issues because their top guys are making all of the dough and are basically a better version of the Oilers complete with better defense and an average goalie. The Caps had a great 3 seasons but they've just fallen off the cliff even with arguably the most talented team they've ever had on paper.

10. I think it's great that management wants to build a la Boston or Toronto, where winning is the biggest thing and losing is not an option. The Oilers are like a streetfighter and the NHL is the streetfighting ring, they keep getting tossed icepacks but the fact is they keep getting beaten the crap out of by every other team to the point where that icepack is not going to do much for you. Wheras at least the Flames occasionally force their way back into the fight. Other fighters respect you more if you're the guy getting back up time after time instead of the guy who lies down and just takes the hits. The fact that you mock us just shows your mentality is already that of being the guy who sits their taking the shots.

11. Philly turned it around after just one season. Vancouver turned it around after just 1 season. Boston turned it around after just 2 seasons. The Rangers missed the playoffs and then turned it around after a single season. Conversely, Florida and the Isles have time and again received plenty of high picks and top prospects and have nothing to show for it. Florida at least is trying to make a go of it right now, but they're going to be in a lot of trouble over the next few years when Kulikov, Ellerby, Gudbranson, Huberdeau, Howden, and Markstrom are up for renewals. The Isles have just been terribly mismanaged ever since the end of the Bill Torrey/Al Arbour/Denis Potvin days.

12. You can argue in favour of a rebuild all you want, fact is most teams would go the retool route over the rebuild. Sure there are failures (Columbus, Buffalo and Carolina to name a few) but the fact is teams like Ottawa, Phoenix, Minnesota, and Colorado have all retooled rather than tank and every one of them is within a playoff race right now. Everyone thought they would just tank and rebuild, well they didn't. They missed the playoffs once or twice and proceeded to come back in force.

1. Impact player - top 9 forward, top 5 defenceman. Pretty much a guy who can take a regular shift and play on one of or both special teams.

2. I'll take your word for it.

3. If a team can draft solid 3rd liner with a 2nd round pick that's a good pick IMO.

4. Meh, I would go for the high risk high reward with mid to late draft picks.

5. Oh, it's shoved down our throats all of the time. Your GM tries to make it sound likes he's better than us. It would be nice if both Alberta teams could be contenders at the same time, I don't care how you get to become contenders but IMO, Feaster is doing a lot of similar things that Sutter did. I'm starting to think that ownership is the one mandating that the Flames make the playoffs. I just see the Flames headed for an inevitable implosion but Flamers everywhere are skewing the Oilers because they are reuilding.

6. Yeah, a lot of Boston players are former 2nd rounders. Feaster gives away 2nd rounders like a the complimentary hotel mints. It's hard to rebuild from within without draft picks.

7. Ok

8. You are wrong about Detroit. Detroit is the example of the ultimate rebuild. The Wings were horrible for a couple decades called the "dead wings era" but they had a very good draft choice in 1983 at 4th overall. The Red Wings changed internally and kept acquiring draft picks and continued to build. They finally won the cup in 1997. The Red Wings are now passing down their tradition of winning from generation to generation. The winning ways of the Red Wings today started from a rebuild in the early 80's.

All of these teams you list have several players they drafted as their star players. There aren't many current Flames who were drafted by them and Feaster keeps trading 2nd rounders and prospects.

9. You have no idea how Pittsburgh would have done without Crosby. You also have no idea about how good Hall, Eberle and RNH could be. FYI this is Eberle's 2nd year and he's 6th in the NHL for points per game. I would argue that Eberle is better than Kane and Toews may be a better 2 way player but he's not better offensively than the Nuge or Hall.

10. How are you comparing the Flames to Boston. I can see Toronto but Burke is able to spend to put players in the minors or will take a bad contract to get a good player. I strongly disagree with your analogy. Players don't want to go on a team that might make the playoffs but that's it. Players want to win. The Oilers haven't proven they can win yet either but neither have the Flames.

11. ok

12. If you think Ottawa and Colorado aren't in full rebuild mode you are sadly mistaken. Colorado had just drafted 3rd overall, made the playoffs with amazing goaltending and then drafted 2nd overall and 11th overall. Ottawa had a fire sale last season, drafted a decent player 6th overall and is also getting great goaltending. Ottawa also has a #1 centre which a lot of teams don't have. They also traded for a #2 centre so Ottawa is very good down the middle.

[Crzydrvr]

5. Oh, it's shoved down our throats all of the time. Your GM tries to make it sound likes he's better than us. It would be nice if both Alberta teams could be contenders at the same time, I don't care how you get to become contenders but IMO, Feaster is doing a lot of similar things that Sutter did. I'm starting to think that ownership is the one mandating that the Flames make the playoffs. I just see the Flames headed for an inevitable implosion but Flamers everywhere are skewing the Oilers because they are reuilding.

6. Yeah, a lot of Boston players are former 2nd rounders. Feaster gives away 2nd rounders like a the complimentary hotel mints. It's hard to rebuild from within without draft picks.

8. You are wrong about Detroit. Detroit is the example of the ultimate rebuild. The Wings were horrible for a couple decades called the "dead wings era" but they had a very good draft choice in 1983 at 4th overall. The Red Wings changed internally and kept acquiring draft picks and continued to build. They finally won the cup in 1997. The Red Wings are now passing down their tradition of winning from generation to generation. The winning ways of the Red Wings today started from a rebuild in the early 80's.

All of these teams you list have several players they drafted as their star players. There aren't many current Flames who were drafted by them and Feaster keeps trading 2nd rounders and prospects.

9. You have no idea how Pittsburgh would have done without Crosby. You also have no idea about how good Hall, Eberle and RNH could be. FYI this is Eberle's 2nd year and he's 6th in the NHL for points per game. I would argue that Eberle is better than Kane and Toews may be a better 2 way player but he's not better offensively than the Nuge or Hall.

10. How are you comparing the Flames to Boston. I can see Toronto but Burke is able to spend to put players in the minors or will take a bad contract to get a good player. I strongly disagree with your analogy. Players don't want to go on a team that might make the playoffs but that's it. Players want to win. The Oilers haven't proven they can win yet either but neither have the Flames.

12. If you think Ottawa and Colorado aren't in full rebuild mode you are sadly mistaken. Colorado had just drafted 3rd overall, made the playoffs with amazing goaltending and then drafted 2nd overall and 11th overall. Ottawa had a fire sale last season, drafted a decent player 6th overall and is also getting great goaltending. Ottawa also has a #1 centre which a lot of teams don't have. They also traded for a #2 centre so Ottawa is very good down the middle.

5. Hmm, yes we do. We laugh. I don't go on the Oilers board so I don't know how many Flames fans go there and tell every Oiler that they should retool. But right now I'm assuming you're an Oilers fan, here you are in a Flames forum, and you are telling us to pull a Tambellini and tank for high picks. I'm HOPING we don't do that on your boards, BUT I don't check so I don't know. What I do know is that right here and now there is a guy who advocates a rebuild in a Flames forum. If we have guys like that over there I apologize before hand, but as far as I know nobody goes and does anything more than laugh and scoff. We don't ask you guys to follow us. Mainly because you are one of the examples of a failure of a retool.

6. Thanks for rubbing the wound in, we know we lack second rounders. We HOPE Feaster will be able to get some back. It's not like anybody here undervalues the importance of a second round pick or 3.

8. And how long did they have to suck before they finally turned it around? They are the ultimate rebuild in the sense that they were god-awful for who knows how long. They went through guys like Marcel Dionne for Christ's sake and couldn't get it done. Maybe you shouldn't be using the Detroit comparison as a positive, unless you plan on tanking for a similar stretch and burning through all-star caliber players all while failing to create any success.

9. You're right, I don't know where Pitts would be if they didn't have Crosby. HOWEVER, I CAN make a reasonable guess based on performance. Considering Pittsburgh is one of the most successful franchises in the NHL, I can reasonably say that it's going to be really difficult to be better than they are now without Crosby. Oh wait, right now they are without Crosby, and they hover around the playoff cutoff line. Whereas with Crosby they are arguably the best team in the East. And this is with Crosby's winning personality and leadership. It's hard to fathom where they'd be without that, but I'm going to say not better. And certainly I can say they wouldn't have had the depth to beat out Washington and Detroit etc. in those playoff series.

I also don't know where Hall, Ebs and RNH could be. BUT, again I can make an estimation that they are not at the Crosby level and never will be. Sure they could, but even the most positive of fans believe Hall will likely top out at around 90 points at best. RNH is a little murkier but I doubt he can be a perennial 100 point player like Crosby. And Eberle, once again, tops out at that 80-90 point range. All very good players no doubt, but are they Crosby? No. Could they? Yes, but considering that finding Crosby alone took more than tens of thousands of players since the Mario draft, the odds are astronomically low. The fact that your counterargument was "You don't know how good they COULD be" is already indicative that at this point you are hoping they will continue to improve. I'm just going by estimations, but at least my guesses for them are realistic. Expecting ANYONE to have the same impact as Crosby would be a HUGE stretch. I will agree that they could definitely be better than Kane/Toews, but Chicago had the benefit of great prospects already in the system. The Oil don't have the Keith/Seabrook/Leddy/Hjalmarsson thing going on.

10. The one guy they have is Jeff Finger, and that was more likely than not just a mistake on the name of the player he ACTUALLY wanted to sign. Comparing the Toronto owners to the rest of the NHL is a futile gesture since they basically have the largest pocketbook in the league and can afford to do those things. Burke as far as I know has never taken on a bad contract to get a good player, so feel free to point one out because I'm looking at Capgeek and they don't have any traded players beyond Phaneuf who would reasonably be considered "a bad contract". And even Phaneuf is pushing it.

12. Full rebuild teams don't go for the playoffs. My definition of a rebuild is a team that continually winds up at the bottom of the standings in the hopes that they will draft a good player. Ottawa is holding onto a playoff spot while Colorado is fighting for one in the West. If they were full-on rebuilding, then why aren't they tanking with the Oil?

[DirtyDeeds]

12. If you think Ottawa and Colorado aren't in full rebuild mode you are sadly mistaken. Colorado had just drafted 3rd overall, made the playoffs with amazing goaltending and then drafted 2nd overall and 11th overall. Ottawa had a fire sale last season, drafted a decent player 6th overall and is also getting great goaltending. Ottawa also has a #1 centre which a lot of teams don't have. They also traded for a #2 centre so Ottawa is very good down the middle.

So you want to claim Ottawa is doing the full rebuild like Oilers. If that is so what the hell is keeping the Oilers back? Sens can dump most of their players for picks and keep just a small core of vets from last year and ice a competitive team the very next year that is also challenging for a playoff spot. Sens don't need to "suck for a Generation or two" and call it a rebuild. Their Fans don't wander around other teams boards and call it a slow rebuild that will contend in a couple years. I haven't seen a Sens fan around here since last year. You are here like daily, and for what purpose?

If all you can do is troll other teams boards please go back to your own boards and take your frustrations with you. Our team is in a playoff hunt and trying, which at least gives the our Fans something they can respect.

[Flyerfan52]

Many pundits see the Flames in a very similar situation with a core that is not of Stanley Cup material but Feaster and company keep spinning their tires in qucik sand.

Any of those pundits reputable? By that I mean do they have sources that are willing to be named.

[ConnorFutureGM]

5. Hmm, yes we do. We laugh. I don't go on the Oilers board so I don't know how many Flames fans go there and tell every Oiler that they should retool. But right now I'm assuming you're an Oilers fan, here you are in a Flames forum, and you are telling us to pull a Tambellini and tank for high picks. I'm HOPING we don't do that on your boards, BUT I don't check so I don't know. What I do know is that right here and now there is a guy who advocates a rebuild in a Flames forum. If we have guys like that over there I apologize before hand, but as far as I know nobody goes and does anything more than laugh and scoff. We don't ask you guys to follow us. Mainly because you are one of the examples of a failure of a retool.

6. Thanks for rubbing the wound in, we know we lack second rounders. We HOPE Feaster will be able to get some back. It's not like anybody here undervalues the importance of a second round pick or 3.

8. And how long did they have to suck before they finally turned it around? They are the ultimate rebuild in the sense that they were god-awful for who knows how long. They went through guys like Marcel Dionne for Christ's sake and couldn't get it done. Maybe you shouldn't be using the Detroit comparison as a positive, unless you plan on tanking for a similar stretch and burning through all-star caliber players all while failing to create any success.

9. You're right, I don't know where Pitts would be if they didn't have Crosby. HOWEVER, I CAN make a reasonable guess based on performance. Considering Pittsburgh is one of the most successful franchises in the NHL, I can reasonably say that it's going to be really difficult to be better than they are now without Crosby. Oh wait, right now they are without Crosby, and they hover around the playoff cutoff line. Whereas with Crosby they are arguably the best team in the East. And this is with Crosby's winning personality and leadership. It's hard to fathom where they'd be without that, but I'm going to say not better. And certainly I can say they wouldn't have had the depth to beat out Washington and Detroit etc. in those playoff series.

I also don't know where Hall, Ebs and RNH could be. BUT, again I can make an estimation that they are not at the Crosby level and never will be. Sure they could, but even the most positive of fans believe Hall will likely top out at around 90 points at best. RNH is a little murkier but I doubt he can be a perennial 100 point player like Crosby. And Eberle, once again, tops out at that 80-90 point range. All very good players no doubt, but are they Crosby? No. Could they? Yes, but considering that finding Crosby alone took more than tens of thousands of players since the Mario draft, the odds are astronomically low. The fact that your counterargument was "You don't know how good they COULD be" is already indicative that at this point you are hoping they will continue to improve. I'm just going by estimations, but at least my guesses for them are realistic. Expecting ANYONE to have the same impact as Crosby would be a HUGE stretch. I will agree that they could definitely be better than Kane/Toews, but Chicago had the benefit of great prospects already in the system. The Oil don't have the Keith/Seabrook/Leddy/Hjalmarsson thing going on.

10. The one guy they have is Jeff Finger, and that was more likely than not just a mistake on the name of the player he ACTUALLY wanted to sign. Comparing the Toronto owners to the rest of the NHL is a futile gesture since they basically have the largest pocketbook in the league and can afford to do those things. Burke as far as I know has never taken on a bad contract to get a good player, so feel free to point one out because I'm looking at Capgeek and they don't have any traded players beyond Phaneuf who would reasonably be considered "a bad contract". And even Phaneuf is pushing it.

12. Full rebuild teams don't go for the playoffs. My definition of a rebuild is a team that continually winds up at the bottom of the standings in the hopes that they will draft a good player. Ottawa is holding onto a playoff spot while Colorado is fighting for one in the West. If they were full-on rebuilding, then why aren't they tanking with the Oil?

5. I keep saying that I'm not advocating for the Flames to do a rebuild ala Oilers style, I'm just saying that I don't like the moves the Flames are doing and they're going to implode. From the interviews of Feaster I got the impression that he consulted ownership and they said they want to go for it (playoffs). As far as coming on here, I like seeing other peoples impression of the Oilers. I also like seeing the Flames fans impression of their team. Their are a few Flame fans on the Oilers forum, and one has been doing exactly what I'm doing now; he's got a Future of the Flames thread going which is up to 60 pages.

6. Ok. From the impression of the fans that I read it seemed like they didn't value 2nd rounders all that much.

8. I see them as the ultimate rebuild because it's been sustained.

9. To be fair, Pittsburgh has been without Crosby, Malkin and Letang for long stetches this season. Malkin was awared the Con Smythe and they would still have Staal and Fleury.

I'm not presuming Hall, Eberle or RNH to be like Crosby. Every hockey player brings different attributes to the table. When Crosby is healthy he is considered the best NHLer and that may be true but it's not like Pittsburgh was winning the cup every season. I will tell you how I project the star Oilers. I think in a few years, Eberle and RNH will be 100 point players playing on the same line. They have a synergy when they are on the ice. I don't like RNH and Hall playing on the same line because both players do best when they are the main puck carriers. I see Hall as a 70 to 90 point player but Hall is the type of player that can carry a team in the playoffs. It's similar to the Oilers in the 80's. Gretzky and Kurri were the stars but Messier was the winner. It doesn't matter anyway because a team can have RNH, Eberle and Hall or Crosby, Malkin and Staal but it takes a team to win a cup.

10. The Leafs took Lombardi when he was having concussion symptoms in the off season and got Franson for pretty much nothing. I think the Leafs were prepared to have Lombardi on long term IR. The Leafs also took Lupul to get Gardiner. The Rangers bury Redden in the minors and the Oilers buried Souray in the minors. IMO the Flames should have kept Kotalik which would likely have let them keep their 2nd rounder. I think the Flames make just as much if not more money than the Oilers and the owners have the Flames are supposed to be billionaires, right? (I'm not sure)

12. I consider a full rebuild as a major change to a teams core group of players. Colorado is well on their way, Ottawa didn't have a complete over haul yet but it's changing.

[Flyerfan52]

Impact player - top 9 forward, top 5 defenceman. Pretty much a guy who can take a regular shift and play on one of or both special teams.

A pretty low bar.

[C_worthy]

The Oilers started the 2009-10 season horribley and they had an option: try to salvage the season in an attempt to make the playoffs or recognize that the current core of the team will never be championship material and start the process of developing a championship core group of players.

Four years after the Pronger incident - damn fine planning.

Keep drinking the kool-aid, Connor.

By the way, you might want to avoid using the term 'championship core' until there is actually a championship to be referred to. They are a new core, nothing more.

[ConnorFutureGM]

So you want to claim Ottawa is doing the full rebuild like Oilers. If that is so what the hell is keeping the Oilers back? Sens can dump most of their players for picks and keep just a small core of vets from last year and ice a competitive team the very next year that is alsoh challenging for a playoff spot. Sens don't need to "suck for a Generation or two" and call it a rebuild. Their Fans don't wander around other teams boards and call it a slow rebuild that will contend in a couple years. I haven't seen a Sens fan around here since last year. You are here like daily, and for what purpose?

If all you can do is troll other teams boards please go back to your own boards and take your frustrations with you. Our team is in a playoff hunt and trying, which at least gives the our Fans something they can respect.

I'm not the one who sounds frustrated. Ottawa has strength at centre and in goal so that helps. I don't think it was expected for the Sens to competeing for the playoffs late in the season but good for them.

I'm not on here to rattle cages. I'm on this thread to kind of get a Battle of Alberta discussion going on team building philosophies. Some times it can be mild mannered and sometimes it gets dicey. If you don't like it you don't have to come on this thread. At the same time, if I go on other Flames threads I don't say anything inflammatory. I just put in my two cents and move on.

Any of those pundits reputable? By that I mean do they have sources that are willing to be named.

Doug Maclean, Craig Button and Darren Dreger to start.

A pretty low bar.

That's pretty good for a 2nd rounder since their is a 1/6 chance a 2nd rounder even becomes an NHler.

Four years after the Pronger incident - damn fine planning.

Keep drinking the kool-aid, Connor.

By the way, you might want to avoid using the term 'championship core' until there is actually a championship to be referred to. They are a new core, nothing more.

How can you plan around your by far best player just up and leaving after one year? I also said that after he did leave that the Oilers were doing wha the Flames are doing now.

I said the Oilers are trying to build a championship core. Pretty sure every team wants to do that.

[Flyerfan52]

I will tell you how I project the star Oilers. I think in a few years, Eberle and RNH will be 100 point players playing on the same line. They have a synergy when they are on the ice. I don't like RNH and Hall playing on the same line because both players do best when they are the main puck carriers. I see Hall as a 70 to 90 point player but Hall is the type of player that can carry a team in the playoffs. It's similar to the Oilers in the 80's. Gretzky and Kurri were the stars but Messier was the winner. It doesn't matter anyway because a team can have RNH, Eberle and Hall or Crosby, Malkin and Staal but it takes a team to win a cup.

Yeah, you never did see the Cup winning Oilers as you weren't even a gleam in your daddy's eye.

Twisting your recent picks to compare to the stars on that team based on your dreams is denigrating a fantastic team.

Fuhr/Moog >>>>> Habby/Dubnyk. Coffey >>> then the entire current Oiler D.

Comparing Eberle/Hall/RHN to Gretzky/Kurri/Messier doesn't even merit an answer.

How can you plan around your by far best player just up and leaving after one year? I also said that after he did leave that the Oilers were doing wha the Flames are doing now.

The Flames didn't send their GM to beg, & when that failed, kiss someone's butt (see Heatley).