cross16
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Posts posted by cross16
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.....I have to weigh in, and this won't be a popular post.
IMHO we don't need a backup.
We have one in Ramo.
We need a starting goaltender. A young starting goaltender that can carry us for the next 10 years.
Between Gillies and Ortio, odds are reasonable that we will have one.
Now we need to do something we're not used to, having lived through the Kipper era:
Play them. (Ortios sharing minutes with Ramo, Gillies....I'd like to see him start for the Heat)
It may not be pretty. But the reallity is that next year just isn't going to be pretty. The more we develop them, the sooner we get where we need to be.
Gilles has already committed to another year of college so he isn't an option for the NHL next season.
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Agreed. Him, Griess, and Montoya are the guys I want. I don't want an older vet like Hiller, Miller, Brodeur, etc.
Someone that has played enough games to know what is what but who is young enough to be part of the long term picture.
I can see both sides of this and there are advantages to both but I think no my preference is not someone who could be part of a long term answer unless you don't believe in Ramo. I you believe in Ramo and push to resign him next year I think keeping a spot open behind I him for Ortio is a wise move. So even if they go the route of Greiss or Montoya for example I don't think I'd do longer then a 2 year deal.
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From what I saw, even when Ramo struggled, I thought he was the better of the two goalies (he and Berra). He looked calmer under pressure and held himself better positionally. Berra made the incredible saves, but that was because he was out of position.
I think he needs to play. Not Kiprusoff play, but play a lot. I think 3 out of 5 which gives him 50 games. It's for the one year and see what he's made of.
Personally, as much as Burke hates losing, I think he still realizes that we're not in a position to contend and is saying the right things and learnt from mistakes made in Toronto not to rush things. With the way the Flames ended the season, they owe it to Ramo to see what he can do, as a big part of what the team did, was due to Ramo's play.
We have to also remember, Ramo did this playing against the opposing team's back-ups most of the time so our team would have done worse if the other teams played their starters and Ramo kept us in there. That's just to recognize that the offense might not have been as good as we thought last year.
Flames finished bottom third of the league in goals for, shots for and PP. Definitely no hiding the fact that this is not a very good offence in calgary right now and the fact they had so many 1 goal games support that. Just not enough good goal scoters.
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Keep in mind with Marcoux that the flames saw little or no improvement in their organizations goalies outside of kipper. Being a goalie coach has more to do with just developing the starter.
Keep in mind with Marcoux that the flames saw little or no improvement in their organizations goalies outside of kipper. Being a goalie coach has more to do with just developing the starter.
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One more thing to consider with the backup goalie is brining in a UFA is an opportunity to add more salary and get your closer to the floor. It may not matter if say Cammy is brought back or a big deal is swung, but if both of those options fail the flames are going to have to add salary and do so in a way that still promotes opportunity for young players. Brining in a Montoya or Greiss who will cost more than macdonald is an opportunity to get there. May not matter but worth considering IMO.
Personally I wouldn't bring back macdonald at all. He is not a quality NHL backup IMO. He faired ok, behind Kipper when he played here and there but I don't feel comfortable with him at all playing 20 or more games, ideally closer to 30. I think there are plenty of options out there that you don't need jmac and I also don't see much league wide interest in I him so I think you try and upgrade and if all else fails you bring him back.
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I think having Ramo start 50 games or so and Ortio taking the rest would be ideale as I think 30 NHL games is just as good as 50 or so in the AHL. Problem I see with that is you have to commit those starts to Ortio and Hartley, as a lot of coaches would, likes to ride his guy so my fear there is Ortio could go stretches of 2 weeks without starting. So even though the number of games would probably work I think it's best to go and get a backup but the tricky thing there is I think ideally you'd only want then on a one year deal because you do have Ortio who isn't going to sit in the AHL forever. A name I have seen yet who I think could fit is Tomas Greiss. He's backed up workhorse goalies, in case Ramo turns into that, and has flashed some potential here and there and would likely come on a pretty reasonable contract and I think the potential for him to play up to 30 games or so beats being in pheonix where you know mike smith is going to play a ton.
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As an example. one of his faults is Berra tends to panic when handling the puck, and at 27 that is a habit that is hard to break for a goaltender...
This and bad goals were my problems with Berra and IMO bad goals are the result of concentration lapses not technique. Having problems with concentration lapses and handling the puck are two very very tough problems to fix in a 27 year old goaltender and it's why IMO I don't think Berra is an NHL goalie.
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Can't link it because in on my phone but Gilles posted in twitter today he is heading back to Providence for one more year. 100% right call IMO.
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Personally I would encourage Gilles to stay in te NCAA. I think he can accomplish a lot there and the Friars are likely to remain a verh good team and he can get some bigger game experience in a lower pressure environment. I'm a big believer that when it comes to goalies to really take your time and I always liked what the flames did with ortio. You have a unique opportunity with European and NCAA goalie prospects that you can retain their rights for a longer period of time while keeping them away from pro hockey and I think the flames should take advantage if it. Personally I don't think Gilles is ready for pro hockey especially to start in pro hockey.I suppose we shouldn't forget Gillies in this picture either.
He struggled a bit after the Olympics, it obviously affected him.
However, he has come around lately with his usual display of strong games.
Actually, he just came off a 6-game winning streak where he never allowed more than 2 goals.
IMHO, he could be strong enough to start for the Heat next year. I'll try not to think about Burke's comments.
We could have Ortio sharing with Ramo next year (and I see Ortio taking the lead in that as the season progresses), and Gillies starting with the Heat next year.
That would be nice....Real nice.
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I thought everything was "simple"?
Don't worry, this is awkward for me too. I agree with a management decision.
Not awkward for me at all. I didn't know Ortio was a emergency recall otherwise it would have been even more simple.
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To clarify he had to be sent down. He was an emergency recall and with Ramo back on the active roster he has to go down. I think the flames only have one recall left so I'm not even sure we will see him again but I'm hoping we do. Didnte play well tonigh but one bad game is not a big deal.
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I know, you didn't...but you've always got this extra edge that keeps me coming back, lol.
I believe it was along the lines of.... if Ortio loses confidence, he's not an NHL goaltender anyway.
Common man!
Please don't twist words. What I actually said was that if Ortio can't handle a single demotion there are serious problems because clearly he didn't have much to begin with. I would understand if they were to ping pong him around like Baertschi but you seemed to be implying we can't wait until he struggles and send him down because if will damage his confidence and if that's the case then Ortio was flawed already. This is professional sports and you have to be able to handle adversity.
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I kind of feel like a mediator of extremes, all the while being called extreme by both sides, lol.
I've spent 95% of my time on this thread saying Ortio is under-rated, and met with very harsh criticism.
Now, I'm saying "woah guys...he's not That good...at least, not Quite yet".....and, also being strongly disagreed with....
The one constant on here is that none of us ever agree. And maybe that's okay. Lord knows we can't get away with this at work or at home.
Personally, I find it odd that we were So, sooooo delicate with Ramo and Berra. "we can't make a judgement 5 games in..don't be so quick to judge....and adjustment period is needed"....etc......
Then with a 22 year old kid who has the potential to be the future face of our franchise...
"throw him in there! Sink or swim! If he can't handle the pressure he doesn't belong here!"
But whatever, it's all good, and fun to watch
Except no one is saying that. As of right now Ortio is playing well at the NHL level so he should continue to play at the NHL level. Is he struggles send him down but as long as he is playing well he should play and that's all I'm saying.
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He really is making a case for himself.
But, we've said this about other goaltenders too, and the Moment they disappointed us, we disappeared them.
Henrik Karlsson the "Calgary Tower", our savior, comes to mind.
Oh...and so does Ortio with his original AHL showing.
Then there's...cough cough...Baertschi. Who nearly everyone was on board with starting the NHL early due to his point production. In hindsight....it's a different story. Now, when we think of how easy it is to rush wingers, multiply that by 10 and you have goaltenders.
Both Ramo and Berra started out with some tremendous pre-season and early season promise, and then reality set in as teams started arriving having reviewed their style, fully equipped with knowledge and instruction on the best way to score on them.
That will come soon with Ortio. It is a real risk and our organization has a history of misinterpreting it. Goaltenders have a history of their confidence getting shattered. If we were going for a cup this year, I would say it's worth it. Ironically, my guess is if we were going for a cup, management would go with a veteran like JMac.
It's a question of risk. There is very little risk in developing Ortio slow. Their are very real, dangerous risks of pushing his development too fast. We will only know about them wen it's too late. But it will be very hard to justify them in hindsight, with a "2014 cup run" argument.
I would ask if we're actually in a rush here. Also, if Ortio stays up, there is the potential for the Heat losing their playoff positioning, or potentially even missing the playoffs. And that potentially means 25 less games of crucial playoff development for Ortio this year.
Personally, I think the playoff development is more important than the early NHL development, if you consider our long-term goals.
Ortio has shown to raise his level in the playoffs before, and this is something that should be developed further.
If The Flames manage to work all of this out, and Ortio gets NHL experience AND playoff experience, great. But this kind of thing usually comes at a cost.
IMO there is nothing better for development then playing in the NHL at the appropriate time and clearly right now is an appropriate time for Ortio. Quite frankly I don't care about the heat or the heats playoff runs so long as Ortio is playing well at the NHL level because the ultimate goal is to get him to succeed at the NHL level and thus the flames to success is it not? So if he is succeeding here why would you decrease the level of competition and skill and think that is positive for his development? That's like saying we should send Sean Monahan down to the OHL so he can get playoff experience even though the playoff experience still doesn't match the quality of play and competition he is currently getting. NHL regular season>>>>>>>>>>>>>AHL playoff experience.
If he struggles you send him down, simple as that. One send down is not going to shake a goalies confidence and if it does you didn't have much to work with in the first place.
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As long as Ortio keeps playing well and keeps playing the best place for him is the NHL. I think it would be silly on so many front to send him down when clearly he is playing at NHL calibre.... So far
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Outside kf the first month or so of the season, Ramo has played well and I think he has shown at the very least he is an NHL goalie. Is he a starter, that I'm not sure of. I think ag worst he is a guy you could use in a 1A 1B rotation and play him around 40ish games from a starting perspective and I think you'd be happy with that. He isn't an elite starter that will steal you a lot kf games and I'm kiy sure he has shown enough to be a starter you'd hitch your wagon too and start 50 or more games but yk his credit he hasn't really had the opportunity to either.
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Well, I don't see calling Ortio up to the NHL this year as ideal.
But, if you're going to do it, play him. And they've done that.
IMHO, he is Very close to NHL starter quality, but ultimately not there.
I'm not sure that he's getting any better development up here than starting for the Heat, but there is one Real advantage of all this:
Most likely a higher draft pick.
Not to knock Ortio at all....the kid's 22. He'll be up to par soon enough if he keeps improving at the rate he is.
If the experiences moves us up a spot or two in the draft...
....so be it.
Well he has outplayed, IMO, Berra and Ramo so if anythjng he is actually moving thd flames in the opposite direction then you indicate. Will his inexperience show at some point, that's bet likely but is say right now he is thd flames best goaltender.
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Sounds like Ramo could return next week potentially. Don't have a quotable source buy it was out on twitter today.
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Ortio in 2 games has looked better than Ramo has all season. To be Ortio should start the rest of the way and Ramo will play every 4 to 5 games. With goaltending like this, I think the Flames are in for a short rebuild.
I agree on both counts. I think if the flames can channel Burkes history of a big, shocker trade for a top 3 Dman and a top 6/ top line forward the playoffs are not far at all. Getting thoss players is gong to be tough however but I agree that I don't think they are looking at an Edmonton style rebuild and I think the playoffs are a possibility in 2016.
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Definitely sorry to see Berra go...but definitely feel vindicated that 2 of the greatest players to ever play the game thought highly enough of our"non nhl caliber goaltender" to cough up a high middle 2nd rounder for him, ..not bad for a over the hill european who doesnt deserve to be here eh?
Totally impressed with Ortio tonight...I agree with burke, if he plays he stays. Ramo#1, ortio getting every 4th start or so.just hope hartley doesnt start running jmac 5 in a row again though
Mikka Noronen once was traded for a 2nd round pick. Just saying.....
Agreed that ortio looked great. I'm most impressed with how poised and confident he looks in the net despite being a rookie. I never felt that same confidence with Berra back there.
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Any word yet on whether we're dealing with Ortio or JMac staying up?
My vote is definitely JMac as the backup, and it looks like others feel this way. Strictly for more consistent and complete development for Ortio, including the Heat's playoff run.
However, I have this horrible feelling that they will call Ortio up and bench him for the rest of the year. Which would suck, because what's the point of acquiring a 2nd round pick if you need to ruin the development of a top prospect to do it? But I'll save my whining and bantering...until we know more.
In his presses Burke said they want to give Ortio a shot provide he plays. Plan right now it let Ortio play some and sounded a big like they may even play him a bit more then Ramo. If it doesn't work out they'll send him back down so he can play. Burke was very specific he wants Ortio to play but whether that's in the NHL or AHL is remaind to be seen based on ortios play.
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Yes Berra is 27 years old and was a pro in Swiss League A which is a lot different then the NHL, so comparing them is valid because neither one had played in the best pro league in the world. The only difference is Berra is a little more mature physically and mentally because of his age. Those goalies you mentioned did not need much time to adjust I agree but they also had playoff caliber teams in front of them and a veteran goalie with them on the team so that is not really valid either. The statement I put in bold print means we all now know how you feel about Joni Orito who was shelled the first 2 times he tried to play in the AHL. But I am sure you going to use the age thing again, which is a invalid argument because age is only 1 small factor in the whole package. Both Berra and Ramo have proved they belong in the NHL, Calgary is 25th out of 30 teams in GAA which is better then many fans they would have expected at the start of the year so as much as you want to say they don't have capable goaltending there are 5 teams that would like have at least one of these guys on their team.
Flames are 2nd last in team save percentage and I have no idea why we should feel good about having the 2nd worst save percentage and the 5th worst GAA, that to me screams you don't have NHL calibre goaltending.
Actually I feel very differently about Ortio because age absolutely matter. Thinking that 7 years of pro experience, regardless of the league, doesn't play a factor is ridiculous to me but whatever. It has a huge impact.
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Marc-Andre Fleury's stats in his first 2 seasons in the NHL
21[/size]
4
14
2
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1
70
675[/size]
.896[/size]
3.64[/size]
1,154[/size]
50[/size]
13
27
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6
1
152
1,485[/size]
.898[/size]
3.25[/size]
2,809[/size]
Both seasons under .900 save % so I guess he is not a NHL caliber goalie either. Yes Berra has let in his fair share of weak goals but he also has made his fair share of amazing saves that should have went in. Every goalie in this league or any league let's in weak goals. His save % is barely under .900 and even at his age he is still a rookie to NA hockey some European goalies can come right over and thrive and some take a little longer. Say what you will about Calgary's goal tending but coming into this year everybody thought that it was terrible and that we were going to be the laughing stock of the league but Ramo and Berra have proven they are capable of keeping games close and giving us a chance.
You are comparing a 20 year old rookie who had never played pro hockey to a 27 year old pro? Not valid comparison. I don't like that people seem willing to grant Berra this long leash by saying oh well he is an NHL rookie, that's hogwash. Nicklas backstrom didn't need time to adjustment neither did Jonas hillier or Federick Andersen, and in fact most European goalies who Are any good don't take that much time to adjust. It's an adjustment,It's not like a rookie who has to learn a whole new game.
Calgary is 3rd last in the NHL and statistically has the worst goaltending, I believes I n the NHL so sorry no they do not have capable goaltending and yes the goalie experiment hs work out jus to Ike many of us thought it would. Not very well.
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Pre calgary kipper is the perfect example of a goalie people here label as "non nhl quality"
He was 5-14 his final season in san jose with an .879 sv%, #3 on a depth chart and barely adequate in spot duty befire that, likely playing against lesser opponents. The only reason we got him was to buy time for Turek to get healthy. If mclennan wasnt playing with a broken sternum we never would have aquired him. But then he fit our system perfectly..right place right time.
Berra has stolen points for us. Hes undefeated in shootouts. The number of off games where you can say he cost us points can be countednon one hand.
As I write this, Ryan Miller is stinking the joint out in his st louis debut..why? Likely because its a new system and unfamiliar players in front of him
My point is, expecrations arw way too high where our goalies are concerned. You could be running a tandem of miller and lundqvist right now and we are likely in the same position with close to the same record
I dont disagree that ramo may be the better of the 2 right now, but even thst is likely because he has a year of nhl behind him.
To say that our tenders dont give us a chance to win and continuously cost us our games is a complete fallacy and just proves people have no clue about what they are seeing and are expecting too much. We're obviously watching different games
For his 1st nhl start Ortio looked really good, I think hes the starter of the future. I hope he gets 1 or 2 more before he goes back,
Our tandem Is just fine, with ortio and gillies in development we are doing it right.to give up any resources, players or picks towards thst pisition before we address the team in front of them would be a huge mistake
Remember how you like, but for me kipper was a classic case of a guy just needing n opportunity and was not a case of someone who was non NHL quality. His first 20 to 30 games int he NHL were pretty impressive and he also was an AHL all star. Remember the flames had to give up a 2nd round pick to get him which is not exactly chump change. It's easy to revise history now but San Jose clearly knew they had an NHL goalie otherwise e price would have been significantly lower. It's also not true that they would not have acquired him, Sutter was actually shopping for a goalie that whole season and had two in mind. It came down to kipper and apparently Cujo, but Sutter went with kipper because he couldn't make cujos salary work under his budget. The flames were acquiring a goalie under Sutter as Sutter never gave turek any vote of confidence.
Goalies with save % under 90 are not keeping you in a lot of games and the amount of weak goals he lets in are not NHL calibre. He doesn't cost then a ton of games but he has cost then more then one and the type so f goals he seems to let in frequently are back breakers.
Goaltending
in Flames Talk
Posted
[
http://www.calgaryherald.com/sports/Flames+prospect+Gillies+comfortable+with+decision+return+school+Providence+rather+than+turn/9702937/story.html?__federated=1Ortio will go and start with the Heat and the flames also have a young goalie in Roy who is still worth developing. The only goalie that should come into the organization this offseason is a backup to Ramo.