Realistic (and unrealistic) Trades - 2024 Edition

[The_People1]

52 minutes ago, phoenix66 said:

 

Now if they start selling off the control players..the Anderson's...the Weegars..for futures. ..now you know they're tearing it down 

 

I would definitely like to sell Weegar (and maybe both depending on the return).  If we are going to be bad then be bad all the way and get some good assets back.

[The_People1]

2 hours ago, conundrumed said:

Decent return for Hanifin. 1st, either 2nd or 3rd, and a developed O-minded large RSD who can't get a chance to play regularly on a team of constantly adding bodies in the way.

Fans seemed to think Hanifin is worth a Seider-like return when he is actually a Walman-level Dman.

Expecting a top A-level prospect AND a 1st is unrealistic.

Did no one notice Hanifin was NEVER paired with a 5 or 6 Dman to boost? He was the one getting the Tanev or Andersson boost.

 

The return was slightly below my expectations.  1st + mid-tier prospect + fringe NHLer.  You can argue the 2nd/3rd round pick is the mid-tier prospect I guess.  But a sure-thing like Edstrom would've been better.

 

But point taken though.

 

At the end of the day, Hanifin is a 2/3 and not a superstar.  This is not trading Giordano in his prime.  We fans expected too much.

[robrob74]

3 hours ago, MP5029 said:

Ok, so with all this talk about Cgy waited too long to trade off guys, I suggested last year that they move guys at TDL and a lot people

on here in the bold trade thread said that they wouldn’t get a good return because they were not pending UFA’s…

 

fast forward to now and the returns are not so good…in the future I hope both fans and Mgt keep that in mind. Then, there is also a few other 2000’s issues we had like Jarome in his UFA year, that was a bad return too…

 

Hope in the future Cgy (looking at upper mgt, not Conroy, and ownership for this issue needing to be addressed) Ownership and notes of hockey Mgt need to stop micro managing and let the GM do their job, give them flexibility to work things like 3 years if you don’t like it then get a different GM but the group above the GM need to butt out.

 

having a competitive young core year over year will make the post season far more often than the past 15 years has, the old way of thinking just doesn’t work,  proof is in the pudding since 1989 this team has been to the finals only 1 time and TBH that was on the back of 2 guys named Kipper and Iggy. Thats a horrible track record.

 

speaking of…giving how recent returns have been similar to the Iggy UFA year, how long did that take to get a new core in place? All be it that re-tool was rushed, but I suspect we are looking at a similar time frame to rebuild a new young core…granted we do have more picks and prospects that potentially have a higher ceiling than what we got from the 2o13 year down/post Iginla era but currently those picks are looking to be much lower and well out of the top 10 so looking at the balance of the over all good and bad I’d suggest we are looking at 3-4 years to see a new young core..hopefully this time, they don’t bring in a bunch of vets by trading away picks and prospects.

there were a few of us who felt the same as you. The writing was on the wall then. Unfortunately I think it hard in a capped out world to make hockey trades. I don't know what the answer is. 
 

I think it was hard because everyone knew last draft was the best in a very long time. Last year was the year to do it though. 
 

ownership wants to compete every year. These are Canadian hockey fans' nightmares. Almost every Canadian team does business this way when they should be going all Carolina or teams like that. 
 

they'd have traded Mangiapane already. Look how they dealt Hanifin and Lindholm...

[robrob74]

3 hours ago, conundrumed said:

Decent return for Hanifin. 1st, either 2nd or 3rd, and a developed O-minded large RSD who can't get a chance to play regularly on a team of constantly adding bodies in the way.

Fans seemed to think Hanifin is worth a Seider-like return when he is actually a Walman-level Dman.

Expecting a top A-level prospect AND a 1st is unrealistic.

Did no one notice Hanifin was NEVER paired with a 5 or 6 Dman to boost? He was the one getting the Tanev or Andersson boost.

I think we were sold early in the process how Hanifin would get a huge load for his youth and continued upside where that load just never came. Yea there's an underlying insinuation here...

[sak22]

I'll still never be convince of missed opportunities in the summer.  These were summer trades

• Provorov for 2023 1st (#22) and 2024 or 2025 2nd
• Durzi for 2024 2nd 
• Newhook for 2023 1st (#31), 2023 2nd (#37) and Fairbrother
• Dubois for Vilardi (1 year younger than Dubois), Iafallo (older), Kupari (bust) and 2024 2nd
• Debrincat for 2024 1st (Bostons), 2024 4rh, Kubalik, Sebrango (prospect not trending awesome)
• Karlsson for conditional 2024 1st and a bunch of cap dumps

If some there were teams willing to give up good assets for a player like Noah Hanifin, they would've moved on and found someone else.  The Flames didn't dictate the market, they had control sure but the above is the ballpark of the amount of control they had.  Not of us believed Lindholm was a 9M/ year player or Hanifin was a 7.5/year player and that came from both the rebuild and the anti-tank crowds, but we all expect to get some of the greatest returns in recent history.  

[sak22]

5 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

there were a few of us who felt the same as you. The writing was on the wall then. Unfortunately I think it hard in a capped out world to make hockey trades. I don't know what the answer is. 
 

I think it was hard because everyone knew last draft was the best in a very long time. Last year was the year to do it though. 
 

ownership wants to compete every year. These are Canadian hockey fans' nightmares. Almost every Canadian team does business this way when they should be going all Carolina or teams like that. 
 

they'd have traded Mangiapane already. Look how they dealt Hanifin and Lindholm...

They got older and only have a couple decent prospects from acquiring a Norris trophy winner who wouldn't sign.  Hamilton and Ferland were lost for nothing.  I give them credit for not trading the picks to keep up in the eastern arms race, but if they are a master of one thing it is trading down at the draft.  But they've still lost significant assets for nothing. 

[travel_dude]

Maybe we can hold off evaluating the trade before we see what the team does.

Miromovov may be the next thing.

Sharky already is and could rise to new heights.

BZR might be the next top D in scoring.

We may pick the next one in the draft.

 

We chose to sell guys that didn't want to be here and that was known league wide.

Mistakes were made.

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

 

 

Flames made every attempt to re sign Lindholm. Ultimately he isn't here because he doesn't want to be. 

Flames made multiple attempts to re sign Hanifin. Ultimately he isn't here because he doesn't want to be. 

Right before they traded him they make attempts to re sign Tanev. Ultimately he isn't here because he doesn't want to be. 

 

I don't think this is the Flames pulling the trigger on a rebuild, this is the Flames reacting to the reality that the core they built to try and win is done. I think this is plan b, plan A was keeping Lindholm/Hanifin. I'm happy they are gong this route but don't agree this signals a change. 

 

This is not a shot at Conroy at all either BTW, I think Conroy is doing a fine job so far. Yes I do wonder if they waited too long on Hanifin but that's it. You had to wait on Tanev and Z for cap space and while I personally didn't like it, I do understand the idea of wanting Lindholm to stay. 

 

Just don't like how every problem gets dumped on the guy on the way out and suddenly the new shiny toy can do no wrong. Yet we don't acknowledge we'd be singing a different tune today if Lindholm and Hanifin had of said yes to their contract offers. 

and those signings would have been a huge mistake and at least one a huge overpay and the other a slight one. That would have prolonged the mess the team is in. It's gross to think that but not surprising.

[MP5029]

Just now, sak22 said:

I'll still never be convince of missed opportunities in the summer.  These were summer trades

• Provorov for 2023 1st (#22) and 2024 or 2025 2nd
• Durzi for 2024 2nd 
• Newhook for 2023 1st (#31), 2023 2nd (#37) and Fairbrother
• Dubois for Vilardi (1 year younger than Dubois), Iafallo (older), Kupari (bust) and 2024 2nd
• Debrincat for 2024 1st (Bostons), 2024 4rh, Kubalik, Sebrango (prospect not trending awesome)
• Karlsson for conditional 2024 1st and a bunch of cap dumps

If some there were teams willing to give up good assets for a player like Noah Hanifin, they would've moved on and found someone else.  The Flames didn't dictate the market, they had control sure but the above is the ballpark of the amount of control they had.  Not of us believed Lindholm was a 9M/ year player or Hanifin was a 7.5/year player and that came from both the rebuild and the anti-tank crowds, but we all expect to get some of the greatest returns in recent history.  

I don’t think summer was the time either, I’m in the boat that they should have moved him the year before, same

with Lindholm and a few others…

 

this is why I’d like to see Markstrom, Manji and Coleman also moved this year vice when they get to UFA…they are are entering the final

3rd of their contract which is the prime time to trade, it’s well enough in that the cap impact seem lower than when they first signed it, but also has enough term for team control which gets a better asset return.

 

now I’m not suggesting moving all

3 or even any at this TDL but over the course of the summer and leading into next years TDL is a prime time to capture more and better assets on these players…maybe even Kadri 

 

and yes I know, they all

have some degree of trade/movement protection but, they are all on the back 1/2 of their careers (Manji may be just approaching the 1/2) but otherwise, these players may be seeking a cup or in the case of Kadri another cup…either way, I think these guys may all be willing to move to a contending team.  Also they are having a great rebound year so get what you can for them…the only issue here is both Kadri and Markstrom will need some retention, we only have 1 retention available now…maybe move Markstrom first then Kadri to lower the term of retention but then the risk is Kadri’s play drops…same goes for Markstrom so it’s kind of a gamble, but I’d suggest move Markstrom with the last retention unless a team take Markstrom with no retention, maybe that’s why they wanted no retention on the NJD/ high cost for retention…I mean you could in theory move Markstrom with no retention and then move Kadri with retention…anyways, these guys all need to be considered to be move over the next year 100% to capitalize on the solid play now.

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

It's still a concern when you draft Russian players that are playing there.

We have two right now that are not signed, both goalies.

I wouldn't be going out of my way to draft them unless the scouting is well done.

But anyway, we have lots now from Eastern Europe.

They likely all know Kuzmenko from his KHL days.

 

Connie has set the table to draft more and cleared out the culture club.

Don't want to be here?  Moving on.

Anyone else?

Markstrom should be moved for other reasons.

He's a luxury now for the next couple years.

We are flush with mid to bottom pair D and lots of prospects.

We still lack top F prospects.

Are we able to do that via Markstrom or maybe Mangiapane?

 

I wonder if Conroy is looking deeper than previous GM's have. Our European scouting has been kinda blah and same with Russian. Maybe he's thinking outside Calgary's box? And with the way things are there now, I dunno how GM's feel about drafting out of Russia?

[MP5029]

42 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

I would definitely like to sell Weegar (and maybe both depending on the return).  If we are going to be bad then be bad all the way and get some good assets back.

While I agree, I think Anderson and Weegar can wait another year, no need to rush them out the door, I think moving Manji, Kadri, Markstrom and Coleman should be the next set of priorities…also resign Kylington for 3 years…then the year after look at moving Anderson, Weegar and who knows maybe even Hubie…he may be movable by then huge maybe that one we may be stuck

with for another 7 years but…the rest should bring back some decent returns, I just think they need to chip away at it, 2-4 guys each year over the next 2 years …the burn it To the ground thing, I’m not 100% sold on, phased sell off over a 2-3 years I think is best, this gives some evaluation time each year to see how your picks and prospects are trending and then target holes that may be obvious during the transition phase…just my thoughts on it right wrong or indifferent just how I think is the best approach other may disagree 

[cberg]

2 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

I was very concerned with our Russian situation even 2-3 years ago.     

 

This puts us past a threshold where one could say we are "Russian Friendly"

 

It's a smart, smart, smart move.  On many levels.

Agreed, obtaining players energized to stay, that rest of NHL may denigrate due to outside issues.  Also, so many Russians end up non-drafted and sign later, could be opening things up for the Flames down the road.

[sak22]

5 minutes ago, MP5029 said:

I don’t think summer was the time either, I’m in the boat that they should have moved him the year before, same

with Lindholm and a few others…

 

Yeah knowing how everythings gone that would've been the smart approach, I'm just not high on the trade market in general, I just can't remember too many trades where the return blew me away, most are just due to the acquiring team being bad and not protecting the picks like the Karlsson-SJ, Duchene-Ott, Jones-Chi.  It would've just jumpstarted things and avoided other messes.  But hard for owners to want to follow their most playoff dates in almost 20 years with a full on rebuild, especially after finally looking to get past Covid restrictions and half or completely empty buildings, I also think Brad had one foot out the door and preferred to give another kick at the can then start something he wouldn't finish.

[sak22]

 

If they were that close before it would make sense why they didn't pursue Hanifin too heavily.  That's a really good deal for the foreseeable future.

[The_People1]

3 minutes ago, cberg said:

Agreed, obtaining players energized to stay, that rest of NHL may denigrate due to outside issues.  Also, so many Russians end up non-drafted and sign later, could be opening things up for the Flames down the road.

 

I'm okay drafting Russian players except, usually when the player is a star, then like Ovechkin said, they want to play in the best league in the world against the best competition in the world.  However, if we are talking 3rd/4th line checker who needs 5/6 years in the AHL and then get a call up 3 times a year, then most Russians will stay home in the KHL where they play full time and steady.  So it depends but I'm generally not against taking a risk at a high end Russian player if we feel he can turn into a top liner.

[cberg]

22 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

Maybe we can hold off evaluating the trade before we see what the team does.

Miromovov may be the next thing.

Sharky already is and could rise to new heights.

BZR might be the next top D in scoring.

We may pick the next one in the draft.

 

We chose to sell guys that didn't want to be here and that was known league wide.

Mistakes were made.

Agreed, got rid of players that didn't want to be here, got multiple unknown players/prospects back and lots of picks.  In 3 years we'll know what Conroy achieved.

[cross16]

34 minutes ago, sak22 said:

I'll still never be convince of missed opportunities in the summer.  These were summer trades

• Provorov for 2023 1st (#22) and 2024 or 2025 2nd
• Durzi for 2024 2nd 
• Newhook for 2023 1st (#31), 2023 2nd (#37) and Fairbrother
• Dubois for Vilardi (1 year younger than Dubois), Iafallo (older), Kupari (bust) and 2024 2nd
• Debrincat for 2024 1st (Bostons), 2024 4rh, Kubalik, Sebrango (prospect not trending awesome)
• Karlsson for conditional 2024 1st and a bunch of cap dumps

If some there were teams willing to give up good assets for a player like Noah Hanifin, they would've moved on and found someone else.  The Flames didn't dictate the market, they had control sure but the above is the ballpark of the amount of control they had.  Not of us believed Lindholm was a 9M/ year player or Hanifin was a 7.5/year player and that came from both the rebuild and the anti-tank crowds, but we all expect to get some of the greatest returns in recent history.  

 

I don't think anyone is saying there was a missed opportunity in the summer. The missed opportunity on all of these players was 2022, not 2023. 

 

My point is I don't like the process. Hanifin indicates to you he doesn't want to be here but you wait, wait until he has a change of heart and then try and keep him why? Why was Hanifin considered to be that type of priority? Market was soft int he summer yes but why would it get more robust for a player like him and why would you want to potentially limit your suitors at the TDL?

 

I do not think you get significantly more for Hanifin in the summer to be clear. I think you would have had more options yes but that doesn't mean a significantly better trade. You'd be lower in the standing right now though and that IMO would have been the better win. 

 

I 

[MP5029]

56 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

But we don't need Centers per se.  We need a #1 Center specifically.  Zary and Pospisil have both mentioned to coaches and management that they'd like to play Center at the NHL level.  I think Zary has the wheels to succeed doing so.

 

Backlund and Kadri will be 2/3 Center for a couple years still.  We missing that #1 player.

I would

suggest we do need Ctrs, both Backlund and Kadri are 35 ish or

more…Backlund is only signed for another 2 seasons…I’m of the opinion we need 3 young Ctrs…ideally a legit #1 Ctr but I’d settle for 2 high end #2 ctrs…

 

most of Our young Ctrs (drafted or acquired) are better on the wings (Zary Shar for example) also it’s better to have wingers that can play Ctr and have some

exp there…especially useful FO’s cause your primary Ctr can be more assertive, if they get the boot your wingers have some experience to take the draw with a better chance to win than a winger who’s never played a reasonable amount of

time at Ctr…

 

if we can land 3 Ctrs over the next few years with Shar I think it could great a huge strength and depth, we may not need 3 but better chance at 2 panning out that way…worse case you have far too many good Ctrs…who cares, they are always in demand can always move one to fill a need…look a the Byram trade…draft and develop Ctrs give a better return, they develop faster than D but slower than W’s however they also rerun better than wingers too…kinda the best way to re-build/tool and decrease development time…granted still risky dealing with younger players but targeting Ctrs over all else seems to be the safer and faster route 

[redfire11]

I think we would have got the same or less in the summer for Hannifin, He has gone on a personal best tear this year which without it Hannifin would be looking at a smaller payout. 

[travel_dude]

1 minute ago, cross16 said:

 

I don't think anyone is saying there was a missed opportunity in the summer. The missed opportunity on all of these players was 2022, not 2023. 

 

My point is I don't like the process. Hanifin indicates to you he doesn't want to be here but you wait, wait until he has a change of heart and then try and keep him why? Why was Hanifin considered to be that type of priority? Market was soft int he summer yes but why would it get more robust for a player like him and why would you want to potentially limit your suitors at the TDL?

 

I do not think you get significantly more for Hanifin in the summer to be clear. I think you would have had more options yes but that doesn't mean a significantly better trade. You'd be lower in the standing right now though and that IMO would have been the better win. 

 

I 

 

I think it goes back to the change in management.

Maloney saying we are going for it, backed by the owners.

GM hired with a mandate to make the playoffs.

That's fine, that happens across the league until they signal rebuild.

3 players at least signaling they didn't like where we were headed.

Toffoli didn't like the process.

Backlund wasn't sure.

Lindholm saying he was undecided.

Hanifin saying he wanted maybe to go to the US.

 

Coaching change on top of that, where some players whined about Sutter and some loved him.

 

I don't blame the GM for not dealing everyone away in the summer, since he wasn't even sure what he would have the coming season.  Maybe a non-rookie GM makes that decision a lot sooner.  Either way, the trades didn't happen until the last days before TDL.  All three of the traded players indicated they were not talking.  Should have reacted a lot sooner.  Summer, early fall or after the first 20 games.  Might be in a lot different standings situation today, for better or worse.  But at least we would know what we are doing.  

[MP5029]

13 minutes ago, sak22 said:

Yeah knowing how everythings gone that would've been the smart approach, I'm just not high on the trade market in general, I just can't remember too many trades where the return blew me away, most are just due to the acquiring team being bad and not protecting the picks like the Karlsson-SJ, Duchene-Ott, Jones-Chi.  It would've just jumpstarted things and avoided other messes.  But hard for owners to want to follow their most playoff dates in almost 20 years with a full on rebuild, especially after finally looking to get past Covid restrictions and half or completely empty buildings, I also think Brad had one foot out the door and preferred to give another kick at the can then start something he wouldn't finish.

I see your point but…I see it a little

differently,

 

most lacklustre returns were team

like Cgy, in a must trade position, LVK has been nothing but home runs, the trade that brought Hanifin and Lindholm was not a must trade situation (we’ll fix a bit but he was not the core to that deal) 

 

this is why, I really hope, Conroy keeps moving guys….not all at once but over the next couple of years to avoid trading from a position of weakness, tends to generate much better returns…

 

now all that said we can’t fault Conroy, he inherited this mess and managed through it…so no judgement this year just do what needs being done, and checking box he’s done than now…

 

moving forward, this summer and next season will be the judge year for him to see how he manages or if he will

attempt to manage trading from a position of strength where it’s not needed to be done but done because he can and it makes sense to do it…

 

again, this year is just clearing the mess up, he did that well…now

to see what he has as a GM without handcuffs 

[robrob74]

9 minutes ago, cross16 said:

 

I don't think anyone is saying there was a missed opportunity in the summer. The missed opportunity on all of these players was 2022, not 2023. 

 

My point is I don't like the process. Hanifin indicates to you he doesn't want to be here but you wait, wait until he has a change of heart and then try and keep him why? Why was Hanifin considered to be that type of priority? Market was soft int he summer yes but why would it get more robust for a player like him and why would you want to potentially limit your suitors at the TDL?

 

I do not think you get significantly more for Hanifin in the summer to be clear. I think you would have had more options yes but that doesn't mean a significantly better trade. You'd be lower in the standing right now though and that IMO would have been the better win. 

 

I 

 

I get the Flames want to compete, just to add onto what you're saying, trading him in the summer the flames are possibly in a better draft spot more too.

[redfire11]

17 minutes ago, sak22 said:

 

If they were that close before it would make sense why they didn't pursue Hanifin too heavily.  That's a really good deal for the foreseeable future.

Fla will be ripe for the pickings next year. 

[travel_dude]

Next debate trade Markstrom now or in the summer.

Is Jersey even interested now?

[robrob74]

4 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

I think it goes back to the change in management.

Maloney saying we are going for it, backed by the owners.

GM hired with a mandate to make the playoffs.

That's fine, that happens across the league until they signal rebuild.

3 players at least signaling they didn't like where we were headed.

Toffoli didn't like the process.

Backlund wasn't sure.

Lindholm saying he was undecided.

Hanifin saying he wanted maybe to go to the US.

 

Coaching change on top of that, where some players whined about Sutter and some loved him.

 

I don't blame the GM for not dealing everyone away in the summer, since he wasn't even sure what he would have the coming season.  Maybe a non-rookie GM makes that decision a lot sooner.  Either way, the trades didn't happen until the last days before TDL.  All three of the traded players indicated they were not talking.  Should have reacted a lot sooner.  Summer, early fall or after the first 20 games.  Might be in a lot different standings situation today, for better or worse.  But at least we would know what we are doing.  

Backlund actually said he wanted to compete for a Cup and I dunno how the Flames convinced him that was happening. He wanted out to go compete. Guess that was his card publicly and internally he wanted captain