Flames 22/23 Lineup

[travel_dude]

4 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

@JTech780

Also, when you look at the depth down the middle

 

Lindolm = Lindholm

Backlund < Kadri

Jarnkrok < Backlund

Carpenter < Rooney

 

The only question here is, can Lindholm be as good as last years Lindholm?

 

Without even looking that good as a top line, Lindy already has 2 goals.  Hubie 3 points.  Toffoli 2 goals.  It took some time for Lindy to produce with Gaudreau and Tkachuk.  And even then, he was the least productive of the bunch.  He score 2 goals last night and one was called back.  Once he gets rolling and Hubie hits him with passes he is ready for, expect him to really catch fire.

[flames for life]

16 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

@JTech780

Also, when you look at the depth down the middle

 

Lindolm = Lindholm

Backlund < Kadri

Jarnkrok < Backlund

Carpenter < Rooney

 

The only question here is, can Lindholm be as good as last years Lindholm?

Lindholm is a big question in my mind, because last year he was fed by two playmakers.  This year the indication is he will be fed by Hubie to make his goals.  Toffoli never showed himself to be anything other than a sniper.  
can Lindholm create some of his own chances?  Can he drive the play into the offensive zone?  He will need to set up Hubie and Toffoli in order for that line to be successful.

[flames for life]

On 10/19/2022 at 4:46 PM, flames for life said:

Lindholm is a big question in my mind, because last year he was fed by two playmakers.  This year the indication is he will be fed by Hubie to make his goals.  Toffoli never showed himself to be anything other than a sniper.  
can Lindholm create some of his own chances?  Can he drive the play into the offensive zone?  He will need to set up Hubie and Toffoli in order for that line to be successful.

Ok, so time to catch up and review.  Has the number one line been effective?  In my opinion, clearly not!  However; having said that, it’s not ineffective either.  I see lots of effort; Toffoli is actually starting to look at what we expected as a goal scorer.  The biggest problem is see, though, is they don’t seem to be in sync with their entries or their offensive play-5 on 5.  Lots of just missed passes and/or offsides.  JH moved fast and deceptively, darting into the O zone like a water bug.  Hubie does not move like that, he appears to move slower but more calculating.  As a result, Lindy and Toffoli both get caught off side.

I do like the movement, and I’m not worried that it won’t correct itself.  I just think they need more time to adjust to the different styles.

[JTech780]

I would really like to understand the logic behind giving the Lindholm mostly defensive zone starts and the Kadri line mostly offensive zone starts. Personally I would flip it. I think the Kadri line is better at transition and a lot quicker at pressuring the puck in the defensive zone. 
 

The Lindholm line has the two best shooters on the team, give them more offensive zone time to get those shooters more chances too shoot.

 

Right now with that top line I see Huberdeau constantly looking for Lindholm and Toffoli but they aren’t quite where he expects them to be.

[travel_dude]

23 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

I would really like to understand the logic behind giving the Lindholm mostly defensive zone starts and the Kadri line mostly offensive zone starts. Personally I would flip it. I think the Kadri line is better at transition and a lot quicker at pressuring the puck in the defensive zone. 
 

The Lindholm line has the two best shooters on the team, give them more offensive zone time to get those shooters more chances too shoot.

 

Right now with that top line I see Huberdeau constantly looking for Lindholm and Toffoli but they aren’t quite where he expects them to be.

 

I believe someone mentioned that Toff and Lindy would do well to play behind Huberdeau, not getting ahead of him in the play.  Perhaps they also haven't developed their communication on ice.  

 

I also question why top line is getting so many D-zone starts.  He's losing a lot of draws, so the transition is gone until they gain possession.  

[tmac70]

2 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

I believe someone mentioned that Toff and Lindy would do well to play behind Huberdeau, not getting ahead of him in the play.  Perhaps they also haven't developed their communication on ice.  

 

I also question why top line is getting so many D-zone starts.  He's losing a lot of draws, so the transition is gone until they gain possession.  

I belive it was the announcer Greg Millan that mentioned that Hubie is more deliberate and if Lindy and Toff held up just that split second they players would be drawn to Hubie and he could provide a pass onthe fly to either Toff or Lindy who could enter the zone with speed. JG use to gain the blue line top circle and cycle back and catch someone entering with speed, winger or a dman. Most of his goals or assits are off the rush, IMHO it just appears he is playing at bit cautious right now. Once he fionds his groove and line mates as well it will click. 

[DirtyDeeds]

7 hours ago, JTech780 said:

I would really like to understand the logic behind giving the Lindholm mostly defensive zone starts and the Kadri line mostly offensive zone starts. Personally I would flip it. I think the Kadri line is better at transition and a lot quicker at pressuring the puck in the defensive zone. 
 

The Lindholm line has the two best shooters on the team, give them more offensive zone time to get those shooters more chances too shoot.

 

Right now with that top line I see Huberdeau constantly looking for Lindholm and Toffoli but they aren’t quite where he expects them to be.

The logic is:

The line playing the best should get the majority of O Zone starts and so they are. 

[The_People1]

If 50% of our defensive zone faceoffs are on the right side, then our RHS Cs will take all of them.  And with Lindholm being our only RHS C on the team, then Lindholm is taking all of them.

 

When it comes to left side faceoffs, we have 3 LHS C options so save the Kadri line for offensive zone faceoffs.

[MP5029]

On 10/16/2022 at 2:20 PM, travel_dude said:

 

When your two top C's are both below 40% on faceoffs, you are setting yourself up.

The 2nd line seemed better at regaining the puck.

I liked some of the shifts from the top line, but I think they are missing something.

The skill is there, but they are just missing the mark a bit.

 

I found Sutter's comments funny.

He said the 2nd line wingers need to do a lot more.

I think their size limits them a bit.

Maybe it would be something to swap Mange and Toffoli for a game.

Each line still has a big winger, and even though Toffoli is just 6 feet, he's solid.

 

The other thing I cringe at is Lewis on the Backlund line.

For one game to start with, I would like to see the following:

 

Huberdeau-Lindholm-Mangiapane

Dube-Kadri-Toffoli

Ruzicka-Backlund-Coleman

Lucic-Rooney-Lewis/Ritchie

 

There are no lines with 2 smaller wingers or a small C.

See if it works.

Agreed 👍 

[cross16]

The balance is not really that bad. Lindholm has the almost the same Off zone start % then he does in the D zone. Think the numbers look funny because that line starts in the neutral zone so much. 

 

And I mean at the end of the day you should not have to feed your "top line" o zone starts. They just need to play better, Lindholm in particular. 

[conundrumed]

13 hours ago, DirtyDeeds said:

The logic is:

The line playing the best should get the majority of O Zone starts and so they are. 

Yup. I'd also add in that it's 5 games in. Still studying options, not displaying them.

[travel_dude]

Not that we need a change, but I would like to see Kadri and Lindholm swap for a game.

Kadri has been a beast playing with Hubie and Toffoli on the PP.

It might help get Lindholm going where he doesn't have to face the top lines in the D zone as much.

 

Too me, that isn't the biggest problem with the lines.

Lines 1 and 2 are fine and producing well overall.

Line 4 is playing much better than last year.

They are drawing penalties, getting scoring chances and not a black hole in the D zone.

Backlund line is suffering a bit with Lewis there.

Really, the only negative I can see.

Lewis kinda kills the play on offense.

Defensively, he's okay.

 

Not sure if Ruzie would be an improvement or not.

[JTech780]

I would take a shot on him. See what he can do in a 3rd line role. Backlund would be a great center for him.

[travel_dude]

37 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

I would take a shot on him. See what he can do in a 3rd line role. Backlund would be a great center for him.

 

We can do it, since Kylington is using a non-roster spot.  

We have the cap.

Like the age of the player, could grow on this team.

At some point, we would need to waive a player.

Bellows or Lewis the only ones I would risk.

[sak22]

1 hour ago, JTech780 said:

I would take a shot on him. See what he can do in a 3rd line role. Backlund would be a great center for him.

I know we have the anything is better than Lewis approach.  But I think we can also look at the Islanders and say there are a few forwards on that bottom 6 that are past their best before dates that Bellows is losing playing time to.  With Lewis there are 2 things, I don't think his play has warranted being removed from the lineup, nor has any of the 4th line IMO.  2nd Sutter won't take be taking Lewis out any time soon, nor Ritchie or Lucic.

[travel_dude]

18 minutes ago, sak22 said:

I know we have the anything is better than Lewis approach.  But I think we can also look at the Islanders and say there are a few forwards on that bottom 6 that are past their best before dates that Bellows is losing playing time to.  With Lewis there are 2 things, I don't think his play has warranted being removed from the lineup, nor has any of the 4th line IMO.  2nd Sutter won't take be taking Lewis out any time soon, nor Ritchie or Lucic.

 

Lewis fills a hole in the roster, but there is no other RW available.

If you swap Coleman to LW, then you could use Ruzie on LW.

He's more of a C, so the fit is questionable.

 

The bottom line is we have exactly one extra body on the roster.

That doesn't give Sutter many options.

[conundrumed]

4 hours ago, JTech780 said:

I would take a shot on him. See what he can do in a 3rd line role. Backlund would be a great center for him.

I wouldn't personally. Why risk what little cap we have? If we had a spot for him Pelletier would be in it. ARI can have him.

[JTech780]

16 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

I wouldn't personally. Why risk what little cap we have? If we had a spot for him Pelletier would be in it. ARI can have him.

If Pelletier showed up for camp he would be on the team. He hasn’t been particularly good to start the season with the Wranglers either.

 

I get what you are saying about the cap though. That would be my main concern.

[conundrumed]

16 minutes ago, JTech780 said:

If Pelletier showed up for camp he would be on the team. He hasn’t been particularly good to start the season with the Wranglers either.

 

I get what you are saying about the cap though. That would be my main concern.

Yeah I just mean we don't have a spot for him really. $1.2 and then RFA with dickering rights seems more like an investment than immediate help. Hopefully we can do better, we're not in a panic, so that helps. Buffalo could maybe take him, they have a world of cap space. It's also a bit of a fools game to Blockchain around with Lou. He's pretty badass about petty stuff like taking a player he has to put through waivers. Dude is a can of worms best left unopened.

This is how trades happen and everyone says, "why didn't you just take him for free"?lol

Nothing's free. Him for Valimaki would've been okay. Vali's actually playing for ARI so good for him.

We're in no position to mess with waiver markets right now, don't need to create enemies working against us.

[travel_dude]

No change to Flames lines and pairings.

Only really have one extra F and one extra D.

[sak22]

20 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

No change to Flames lines and pairings.

Only really have one extra F and one extra D.

I don't think its a bad thing, especially with a 2.5M D counting against the cap and not playing.  Both Flames and Wranglers will be in Calgary next week, best to maximize cap space as opposed to popcorn revenue (they probably don't even pay anyways).

[conundrumed]

36 minutes ago, sak22 said:

I don't think its a bad thing, especially with a 2.5M D counting against the cap and not playing.  Both Flames and Wranglers will be in Calgary next week, best to maximize cap space as opposed to popcorn revenue (they probably don't even pay anyways).

Agreed. 5-1. 5 v 5 play has been less than ideal, but everything is a work in progress with no reason to panic. Let the TDL money ferment.

[travel_dude]

6 minutes ago, conundrumed said:

Agreed. 5-1. 5 v 5 play has been less than ideal, but everything is a work in progress with no reason to panic. Let the TDL money ferment.

Not like we can do anything outside swapping in one F or one D.

The extra D didn't exactly perform up to expectations when he got a game, so we are best leaving that for now.

Rozie didn't have a great camp, but the biggest problem is he is first and foremost a C.

If he could play wing, then he would have a better chance of getting in.

 

We are kinda behind the 8 ball due to Kylington's status.

Can't get LTIR relief.

Then again, what good is LTIR relief if you don't go over the cap?

I'm okay with the way we are managing cap right now.

 

But.

I would prefer we focus on using a top 9 player in the top 9.

Rozie isn't getting better not playing.

4th line looks really good so far.

Lewis is a 4th line player, but isn't playing as good as the 4th line.

Coin flip whether Ruzie improves the 3rd line in place of Lewis.

You lose Lewis' work ethic and PK ability, but you gain an offensive threat.

[pikey7883]

I finally had the chance to go and see the flames in person last night and wasn’t disappointed. A couple things I noticed though seeing them in person versus on TV. 
That first line look disjointed, and I know they should be given the opportunity to iron out the kinks, something isn’t working.

Mang and Dube are relentless on the forecheck, really fun to watch. Kadri is perfect for them because he gets open so many times for the pass coming out feom

behind the goal line. 
Lewis is a boat anchor on the third line, he works hard every shift and is the epitome of what you want your team to be, however generates almost nothing. Coleman is constantly dumping and chasing, that has to be an exhausting way to play. 
If the 4th line continues to play like that, no one from the Wranglers is gonna find a spot on this team. Hard on the forecheck, and actually did pretty well against McDavids line.

The defense as a whole is solid, but I think teams that play a quick transition game (like buffalo and Edmonton), our D is gonna have some struggles. Or they’re going to need to learn to adjust to speed in transition. Hopefully Kyl comes back and helps with that soon.

 

I think the forward lines are going to need a bit of a shuffle. This is what I would like to see.

Mang - Lindy - Toff

Ruzie - Kadri - Dube

Hubie - Backs - Coles

Looch - Rooney - Ritchie

[Thebrewcrew]

It's been 7 games and that line has yet to score at 5 on 5. There is a certain level of misfortune involved, but there are also instances where something just looks "off" with that line. Natural Stat Trick has them at 2.65 expected goals through 3 games at 5 on 5, which again points to some misfortune. They've also been credited with 11 high danger chances in 7 games. 

 

The biggest thing I've noticed with the Lindholm line is that they don't have a natural puck carrier. This is an area where I think the Flames miss Gaudreau the most, his ability to transport it the length of the ice. 

There were some articles and pieces of analysis published in the summer about Huberdeau not being a guy to transport the puck and that's what we are seeing right now. Production wise, he's been a very similar player to Gaudreau, but stylistically, they are very different. The best fit for Huberdeau might be Kadri as his C. He's the best puck carrying C the Flames have. 

 

Seven games is still a fairly small sample size, but you do need something out of that line sooner than later. For me, I'd give it until the end of the homestand, that's 10 games. If it's more of the same, it might be time to tinker.