2022 Stanley Cup Playoffs - All Team Discussion Thread

[sak22]

1 minute ago, The_People1 said:

 

The Flames can call it, "no other choice because Gaudreau left via UFA" or whatever, right?  Let's not call it the T-word because I understand it triggers.

 

From the time the Avs drafted Landeskog #2 in 2011 to a Cup win now, it took 11 years.  Brutal right?  If that's how long it takes, do the Flames have that kind of commitment to follow the Avs blueprint?

Well it matches with Washington 14 years from drafting Ovechkin, St. Louis 13 from bottoming out, and Tampa 12.  It is a process that fans just get drunk off of what seems like quick results for LA, Pittsburgh and Chicago, but forget Pittsburgh's first top five pick was 2002, so it was 7 years, Chicago's first high picks were Barker and Skille, LA missed 7 straight years and their first top 5 was Hickey.  When this season started people were mad the core here was unchanged from the previous years, and when it turns into a success and one of our better high picks turns out a career year it seems all the fans want to "sell high".  Washinton wasn't just Ovi it was Backstrom #5, Carlson #27, Kuznetsov #26, Holtby #93 and Wilson #16.  Tampa wasn't just Stamkos, in fact they won cup #1 without him but Hedman #2, Kuch #58, Palat, #208, Vasi #19, Point #79, Cirelli #72.  We have a #1 if we keep him, he was just drafted #103 picks later.

[cross16]

32 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

The Flames can call it, "no other choice because Gaudreau left via UFA" or whatever, right?  Let's not call it the T-word because I understand it triggers.

 

From the time the Avs drafted Landeskog #2 in 2011 to a Cup win now, it took 11 years.  Brutal right?  If that's how long it takes, do the Flames have that kind of commitment to follow the Avs blueprint?

 

What blueprint is that and what "commitment" did the Avs show? They had some patience with certain players for sure, which is nice but also mirrors what Calgary has done, but i'm not sure i'm seeing the followable blueprint. 

 

They went through 2 GMs and 3 head coaches and what happens if Roy doesn't suddenly resign when he did, they might not even have Bednar. Not to mention this actually starts in 2009 when they took Duchene 3rd overall because without that trade (that it's interesting to point out he demanded) I don't think they are cup champs. 

 

Don't get me wrong they did a lot of things right and had some very key acquisitions, but they also had a lot of circumstances go their way. I'm not sure there is that much of a blueprint there because they was not a tank for a ton of high picks strategy IMO. 

[The_People1]

32 minutes ago, sak22 said:

Well it matches with Washington 14 years from drafting Ovechkin, St. Louis 13 from bottoming out, and Tampa 12.  It is a process that fans just get drunk off of what seems like quick results for LA, Pittsburgh and Chicago, but forget Pittsburgh's first top five pick was 2002, so it was 7 years, Chicago's first high picks were Barker and Skille, LA missed 7 straight years and their first top 5 was Hickey.  When this season started people were mad the core here was unchanged from the previous years, and when it turns into a success and one of our better high picks turns out a career year it seems all the fans want to "sell high".  Washinton wasn't just Ovi it was Backstrom #5, Carlson #27, Kuznetsov #26, Holtby #93 and Wilson #16.  Tampa wasn't just Stamkos, in fact they won cup #1 without him but Hedman #2, Kuch #58, Palat, #208, Vasi #19, Point #79, Cirelli #72.  We have a #1 if we keep him, he was just drafted #103 picks later.

 

Ya hope Gaudreau stays.  If not then it's time... Right?

[sak22]

7 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Ya hope Gaudreau stays.  If not then it's time... Right?

Yes and no for me, the yes is that I don't think they can win 4 rounds, the no is as a STH this is the worst price increase I've had in my 10 years, I believe they can still be playing meaningful hockey in April which given my investment is what I really want.  I don't believe we are close to bottoming out, the Flames can afford to lose my investment, but as I look at the relocation map there are still plenty of tickets in the 10K+ range people aren't racing to fill those after a strong season there will be plenty more of those with a complete overhaul..  

[The_People1]

14 minutes ago, sak22 said:

Yes and no for me, the yes is that I don't think they can win 4 rounds, the no is as a STH this is the worst price increase I've had in my 10 years, I believe they can still be playing meaningful hockey in April which given my investment is what I really want.  I don't believe we are close to bottoming out, the Flames can afford to lose my investment, but as I look at the relocation map there are still plenty of tickets in the 10K+ range people aren't racing to fill those after a strong season there will be plenty more of those with a complete overhaul..  

 

Right yes it's hard to see the Flames win 4 rounds without Gaudreau.  Might as well rebuild and get new young talent to grow with.  I get the owners are also trying to get a new arena built and it's a tough sell to investors when the team is going through a rebuild.  That said, fans generally don't respond well to mediocrity either so can't just keep putting out a "one and done" playoff team every year expecting profits.

[sak22]

1 hour ago, The_People1 said:

 

Right yes it's hard to see the Flames win 4 rounds without Gaudreau.  Might as well rebuild and get new young talent to grow with.  I get the owners are also trying to get a new arena built and it's a tough sell to investors when the team is going through a rebuild.  That said, fans generally don't respond well to mediocrity either so can't just keep putting out a "one and done" playoff team every year expecting profits.

Yeah I play Lotto max every draw and I still hate relying on the NHL system some times the drop off is too significant, Arizona should've had at least Eichel instead got Strome, Chicago in '04 got Cam Barker after Malkin, pretty significant drop offs there Chicago just got theirs as they win a lottery where the #1 is elite and the rest of the top 5 might be the worst in this century.  We thought Edmonton did us the biggest favor picking Draisatl.  Let a rebuild happen organically.   Mediocrity sucks but its very hard to win trades when you are trading the best player, and we will need to make 5 of those to be bad enough for high lottery odds.

[jjgallow]

In 2022, the best player in hockey is not Connor McDavid.

 

The best player in hockey is a Calgarian, and we've not seen the likes of him since Bobby Orr.

 

We should all be a lot prouder than we are of our local hockey community.

[robrob74]

On 6/27/2022 at 8:58 AM, sak22 said:

They won a lottery for that #1 in a short season, they also traded their first round pick the previous season for a goalie because they thought they were close (could've taken an elite goalie had they kept the pick).  Don't know if I'd call them a tank, just a team that was good for so long that had to adjust to the salary cap and rebuild an aged out core.  The Avs from 2010-2015 really did a lot of things people criticize the Flames of doing with not fully committing to a rebuild, we have hindsight issues with the Elliott trade, they traded a 2nd to us for Reto Berra, they just won the right lottery and lost the right lottery.  Full marks to the organization, they hit rock bottom in 2017 they kept much of that core together and the staff and Mackinnon went from an underachiever to one of the best in the game.   

 

I hated the Elliott trade from the get go. I just didn't think the Flames were a goalie away from being good. And I felt that Elliott coming from a more defensive team and coming to the Flames was a near disaster in the making. He played ok, at times... But I felt the Flames didn't have the D to sustain his numbers he had in St. Louis.

[robrob74]

On 6/27/2022 at 9:48 AM, cross16 said:

 

What blueprint is that and what "commitment" did the Avs show? They had some patience with certain players for sure, which is nice but also mirrors what Calgary has done, but i'm not sure i'm seeing the followable blueprint. 

 

They went through 2 GMs and 3 head coaches and what happens if Roy doesn't suddenly resign when he did, they might not even have Bednar. Not to mention this actually starts in 2009 when they took Duchene 3rd overall because without that trade (that it's interesting to point out he demanded) I don't think they are cup champs. 

 

Don't get me wrong they did a lot of things right and had some very key acquisitions, but they also had a lot of circumstances go their way. I'm not sure there is that much of a blueprint there because they was not a tank for a ton of high picks strategy IMO. 

 

I think once Sakic got the hang of GM, he's a lot like Yzerman, such foes, but so similar in desire to win and professionalism. But he seemed to clean it all up for them.

[sak22]

6 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

I hated the Elliott trade from the get go. I just didn't think the Flames were a goalie away from being good. And I felt that Elliott coming from a more defensive team and coming to the Flames was a near disaster in the making. He played ok, at times... But I felt the Flames didn't have the D to sustain his numbers he had in St. Louis.

Yeah don't care about divulging into whether it was a good target as that's dead and done, just pointing out the Avs have spent a lot of assets on goalies over the past decade.  People are still complaining about trading down to draft Jankowski 10 years ago, imagine if we were the team that traded the Filip Forsberg pick plus a 2nd for Semyon Varlamov.

[travel_dude]

6 minutes ago, sak22 said:

Yeah don't care about divulging into whether it was a good target as that's dead and done, just pointing out the Avs have spent a lot of assets on goalies over the past decade.  People are still complaining about trading down to draft Jankowski 10 years ago, imagine if we were the team that traded the Filip Forsberg pick plus a 2nd for Semyon Varlamov.

 

Wasn't it Forsberg for Erat?

[sak22]

1 minute ago, travel_dude said:

 

Wasn't it Forsberg for Erat?

Yes after he had been drafted by Washington

[travel_dude]

8 minutes ago, sak22 said:

Yes after he had been drafted by Washington

 

Okay, I get it now.  But at the time, Varly was a 23 year old goalie.

[cross16]

23 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

I think once Sakic got the hang of GM, he's a lot like Yzerman, such foes, but so similar in desire to win and professionalism. But he seemed to clean it all up for them.

 

Sakic did a good job and deserves credit. My point is not to take anything away from them just to point out that I don't really think the Avs followed a "blueprint". It wasn't they like intentionally bottomed out and stayed there, they kind of went though 2 different rebuilds because the first one didn't work. Just not sure there is something to be learned there.

 

The one thing I take away from the Avs, and I think the Flames are following this to a certain extent, is you have to be very specific and intentional in the players you target. The Avs, and Sakic in particular, did a really nice job of targetting players that fit how they wanted to play and not necessarily the "best" players. Acquisitions like Devon Towes, Sam Girard, Nichuskin and Burakovsky were all players that didn't scream great pick up but once they were in the system they fit it like a glove. 

 

But they also got lucky and when they did they took advantage. Duchene asking for a trade, Roy quitting, Roy insisting they draft Mackinnon over Jones (as the story goes) and then losing the lottery to get Makar. 

[sak22]

11 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

Okay, I get it now.  But at the time, Varly was a 23 year old goalie.

Yes but our 2022 hindsight tells them they won't win a playoff round with Varly and will only make the playoffs three times with him and that they will win a round with him on the bench, and they will pass up on a future hall of fame goalie.  Or can we only use hindsight to criticize Flames moves?

[travel_dude]

1 minute ago, sak22 said:

Yes but our 2022 hindsight tells them they won't win a playoff round with Varly and will only make the playoffs three times with him and that they will win a round with him on the bench, and they will pass up on a future hall of fame goalie.  Or can we only use hindsight to criticize Flames moves?

 

Well, I just have certain beefs, not everything we do.  We missed out on Forsberg, both in the draft (one spot after we originally had, and the Erat trade).  In 2012, we opted for Sieloff (2 points in the USHL draft year) over Parayko (3rd round) or Ghost (decent freshman points at Union).  Poor drafting happens to every team, but choices like that really stand out.  No logic in it at all.  

 

 

[The_People1]

 

[sak22]