Ryan Francis - 5th rounder 2020

[robrob74]

4 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

I would not be PO'd had we drafted Schneider.  Same way I'm not PO'd about Zary.

C or D, which should always be the first choices in a BPA situation.

You can argue the D was better than the C, but it's probably almost equal if not equal.

People complain about LHS as if they are taboo.

A LHS LW may be a lesser need in the case of a BPA, but there are sop many that are RW.

 

I really hope Zary can prove me wrong. I don't mind the player. He played well in his limited time in the AHL. I am guessing he can't play AHL this year either if he doesn't make the NHL? 

 

I don't know enough about Francis to say anything. I just think we need to really concentrate on the D prospects. Some say we are fine, but I think fine isn't good enough. We have decent enough D that will possibly make the NHL. But will they be top4 or top pair? 

I guess that Hanifin still has about 8 good years left in him. possibly ten. Andersson the same. 

[jjgallow]

15 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

I really hope Zary can prove me wrong. I don't mind the player. He played well in his limited time in the AHL. I am guessing he can't play AHL this year either if he doesn't make the NHL? 

 

I don't know enough about Francis to say anything. I just think we need to really concentrate on the D prospects. Some say we are fine, but I think fine isn't good enough. We have decent enough D that will possibly make the NHL. But will they be top4 or top pair? 

I guess that Hanifin still has about 8 good years left in him. possibly ten. Andersson the same. 

 

I like Zary, all this aside.

 

My thoughts on him are simple.    He needs to keep his  head up, work on his awareness,  and Not get another concussion. 

[conundrumed]

1 hour ago, robrob74 said:

 

I really hope Zary can prove me wrong. I don't mind the player. He played well in his limited time in the AHL. I am guessing he can't play AHL this year either if he doesn't make the NHL? 

 

I don't know enough about Francis to say anything. I just think we need to really concentrate on the D prospects. Some say we are fine, but I think fine isn't good enough. We have decent enough D that will possibly make the NHL. But will they be top4 or top pair? 

I guess that Hanifin still has about 8 good years left in him. possibly ten. Andersson the same. 

I sure wish they'd piledrive the Sept 15 date to dust. Just use calendar years...

[travel_dude]

2 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

I really hope Zary can prove me wrong. I don't mind the player. He played well in his limited time in the AHL. I am guessing he can't play AHL this year either if he doesn't make the NHL? 

 

I don't know enough about Francis to say anything. I just think we need to really concentrate on the D prospects. Some say we are fine, but I think fine isn't good enough. We have decent enough D that will possibly make the NHL. But will they be top4 or top pair? 

I guess that Hanifin still has about 8 good years left in him. possibly ten. Andersson the same. 

 

He's 19 and will be 20 in September, so he's good to go in the AHL, along with Pelletier.

Both will have opportunity to make the team.

 

My issue with the D is a lack of a definitive #1.

Gio was training off from being one, and we don't have one at that level or higher.

I would say that we have the makings of one or two top pair D, but they need to be more consistent.

Beyond that, we have the makings of 2nd and 3rd pairs.

Middle of the road overall.

That's fine.  

Not ideal, but fine during growth.

[jjgallow]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

He's 19 and will be 20 in September, so he's good to go in the AHL, along with Pelletier.

Both will have opportunity to make the team.

 

My issue with the D is a lack of a definitive #1.

Gio was training off from being one, and we don't have one at that level or higher.

I would say that we have the makings of one or two top pair D, but they need to be more consistent.

Beyond that, we have the makings of 2nd and 3rd pairs.

Middle of the road overall.

That's fine.  

Not ideal, but fine during growth.

 

More relevantly, can we assume this is bad news for Francis?   (but good news in the sense that he is crazy crazy young to be putting up the numbers he has)

[conundrumed]

1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

He's 19 and will be 20 in September, so he's good to go in the AHL, along with Pelletier.

Both will have opportunity to make the team.

 

My issue with the D is a lack of a definitive #1.

Gio was training off from being one, and we don't have one at that level or higher.

I would say that we have the makings of one or two top pair D, but they need to be more consistent.

Beyond that, we have the makings of 2nd and 3rd pairs.

Middle of the road overall.

That's fine.  

Not ideal, but fine during growth.

I thought the cutoff was Sept 15th?

He's Sept 25th, so not good to go.

Hence my statement, just use effing calendar years. Like schools do.

Why re-invent the wheel?

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, conundrumed said:

I thought the cutoff was Sept 15th?

He's Sept 25th, so not good to go.

Hence my statement, just use effing calendar years. Like schools do.

Why re-invent the wheel?

 

The rule is 20 in the calendar year, so both Wolf and Zary go to the AHL this season.

To be exact, turn 20 before December 31st.

This changed some time ago.

 

 

[conundrumed]

36 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

The rule is 20 in the calendar year, so both Wolf and Zary go to the AHL this season.

To be exact, turn 20 before December 31st.

This changed some time ago.

 

 

https://www.prohockeyrumors.com/2021/07/ahl-exemption-coming-for-some-chl-prospects.html

[travel_dude]

7 hours ago, conundrumed said:

https://www.prohockeyrumors.com/2021/07/ahl-exemption-coming-for-some-chl-prospects.html

 

I don't mean to contradict the story, but Perfetti is post December 31st.

I don't know if the new agreement really affetcts Zary, as the wording I have seen is that 2001 born players can play in the AHL.

I have seen numberous reports that Zary starts in the AHL if he doesn't go to the NHL.

FN has talked about it and Pike is pretty on when it comes to CBA and transfer agreements etc.

[cross16]

12 hours ago, conundrumed said:

I thought the cutoff was Sept 15th?

He's Sept 25th, so not good to go.

Hence my statement, just use effing calendar years. Like schools do.

Why re-invent the wheel?

 

It is a bit confusing but there are 2 different rules. The September 15th cutoff is for general AHL eligibility. You need to be 18 years old by September 15th to play in the AHL. 

 

CHL players are different due ot the transfer agreement between the AHL and NHL so that's why it's a calendar year for CHL players. Have to be 20 or turning 20 by the end of the year to be eligible. 

 

Zary is eligible for the AHL and I would strongly suspect that's where he'll be. He could go back to the WHL as an overeager but I will be surprised if that happens. 

[jjgallow]

 

Francis made "honorable mention" in the untouchables list from the hockeywriters,

https://thehockeywriters.com/calgary-flames-untouchable-prospects-2021-22/

 

Not a bad writeup, this year's picks of course excluded, I think Francis has a real shot of being one of our most valuable prospects with a strong season this year.

 

Hoping he brings it.

[kehatch]

8 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

Francis made "honorable mention" in the untouchables list from the hockeywriters,

https://thehockeywriters.com/calgary-flames-untouchable-prospects-2021-22/

 

Not a bad writeup, this year's picks of course excluded, I think Francis has a real shot of being one of our most valuable prospects with a strong season this year.

 

Hoping he brings it.

 

I always enjoy reading takes on prospects, so thanks for linking.  I don't really agree with the write up though.  First, Coronoto isn't listed, and neither is anyone else from the 2021 draft class.  Strange for something written in August.  I also have trouble listing Phillips and Ruzicka as untouchables.  I know he is just taking a different approach to saying they are in our top 5 prospect list, but using the term untouchable?  Phillips could very well be on waivers in a few weeks.  

[jjgallow]

15 minutes ago, kehatch said:

 

I always enjoy reading takes on prospects, so thanks for linking.  I don't really agree with the write up though.  First, Coronoto isn't listed, and neither is anyone else from the 2021 draft class.  Strange for something written in August.  I also have trouble listing Phillips and Ruzicka as untouchables.  I know he is just taking a different approach to saying they are in our top 5 prospect list, but using the term untouchable?  Phillips could very well be on waivers in a few weeks.  

 

Nothing a quick rebuild can't fix

 

tank's empty, not the writer's fault.

 

but yeah.   a little weird not to include our draft picks.    May he felt that it's not really fair to call them untouchable when they haven't even been to a training camp.  I'm not sure.   But I would have included Coronato, for sure.

[jjgallow]

 

https://www.nhl.com/flames/news/turning-heads/c-326176658

 

 

Looking forward to seeing him out there

[jjgallow]

On 8/20/2021 at 7:22 AM, conundrumed said:

Dear jesus jj, what?lol

Pelletier and Francis are the same age and same size.

Pelletier has been on every National team since U17.

He didn't have a "breakout" year in the Q. He performed from the second he got there.

He has excelled at every level.

I love that you like Francis a lot. Just do that, don't try to sell us that he's a better prospect than Pelletier.

Zary is also a U18 and U20 National team player in a harder league than the paintywaif Q. Again, all 3 are the same age.

Why are you doing this to yourself?

Be happy we have them all.

Pelletier will without a doubt be an NHLer.

 

 

On 8/20/2021 at 9:32 AM, conundrumed said:

You mean, "no matter how many teams he tried out for and made amongst his Canada-wide age group".

Pelletier is the most complete 200' fwd in our system. Thinking he's plateau'd is just stat watching. Stats mean nothing once you're drafted. What matters is working on weaknesses in your game and overall body strength for the next level. Small doesn't matter so much, center of gravity with your skating is more important.

 

 

@conundrumed  Well...  he wasn't that yesterday.

 

Anyone else want to really shoot their mouth off about Francis and all our prospects that are better than him before the season starts?

 

Now's your chance.

 

There's little risk, when you're proven wrong about Francis you can always come back with "well hindsight is 2020, it's easy to say that now" 

[conundrumed]

11 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

 

 

@conundrumed  Well...  he wasn't that yesterday.

 

Anyone else want to really shoot their mouth off about Francis and all our prospects that are better than him before the seasons starts?

 

Now's your chance.

 

There's little risk, when you're proven wrong about Francis you can always come back with "well hindsight is 2020, it's easy to say that now" 

Holy Christ, get over yourself🤣

[jjgallow]

 

Sadness here.

 

I did not realize that Phillips and Duehr would both be in the AHL this year, ahead of Francis, putting him on the third string.

 

Imho he's played well, considering he's getting 3rd line minutes.    But this is really kind of a waste to develop him in that role.

 

Honestly if that situation continues I think it might make more sense for him to have another year in the WHL.

 

In terms of potential, imho Francis's ceiling is well higher than Phillips or Duehr.   But seriously if you fill your AHL with 23-24 year olds, well, not much development is going to go on down there.    

 

I do understand it's a tricky situation, but the Flames could have planned this out a bit better.   Hopefully something gives soon.

 

 

3rd line, we're not going to see the development we want.     2nd line would be ok.    

 

IMHO either he needs to go to the WHL, or one of Phillips/Duehr need to move.    Promotion, trade, etc.

Or, one of the above get loaned to another AHL team.  I am confident Francis could play 1st or 2nd line on Most AHL teams right now.  And obviously the other two.

 

It's possible the Flames first injury will solve this problem.  I'm not quite sure what the call-up plan is.    I get that maybe they didn't expect Duehr to be that good.    Honestly though, when you hit 23/24, as a RW you should be in the NHL if you're ever going to be.     Hopefully some decisions get made because not a single one of them is benefiting from this and..   you have to really work hard to create a glut on RW, and still have hardly any RW on the Flames.

[travel_dude]

8 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

Sadness here.

 

I did not realize that Phillips and Duehr would both be in the AHL this year, ahead of Francis, putting him on the third string.

 

Imho he's played well, considering he's getting 3rd line minutes.    But this is really kind of a waste to develop him in that role.

 

Honestly if that situation continues I think it might make more sense for him to have another year in the WHL.

 

In terms of potential, imho Francis's ceiling is well higher than Phillips or Duehr.   But seriously if you fill your AHL with 23-24 year olds, well, not much development is going to go on down there.    

 

I do understand it's a tricky situation, but the Flames could have planned this out a bit better.   Hopefully something gives soon.

 

 

3rd line, we're not going to see the development we want.     2nd line would be ok.    

 

IMHO either he needs to go to the WHL, or one of Phillips/Duehr need to move.    Promotion, trade, etc.

Or, one of the above get loaned to another AHL team.  I am confident Francis could play 1st or 2nd line on Most AHL teams right now.  And obviously the other two.

 

It's possible the Flames first injury will solve this problem.  I'm not quite sure what the call-up plan is.    I get that maybe they didn't expect Duehr to be that good.    Honestly though, when you hit 23/24, as a RW you should be in the NHL if you're ever going to be.     Hopefully some decisions get made because not a single one of them is benefiting from this and..   you have to really work hard to create a glut on RW, and still have hardly any RW on the Flames.

 

I think you mean the Q, not WHL right?

SJ hosts the Memorial Cup, so he can go back there and finish out his jr carreer.

Was only on a ATO, so perhaps it makes the most sense now.

[jjgallow]

5 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

I think you mean the Q, not WHL right?

SJ hosts the Memorial Cup, so he can go back there and finish out his jr carreer.

Was only on a ATO, so perhaps it makes the most sense now.

 

sorry, yes.     well, I do believe that if he was given the minutes he would develop just fine in the AHL.

 

But without the minutes, might as well get that extra year of junior, certainly won't hurt him

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

 

sorry, yes.     well, I do believe that if he was given the minutes he would develop just fine in the AHL.

 

But without the minutes, might as well get that extra year of junior, certainly won't hurt him

 

We have way too many forwards on the Heat right now.

ATO's up the ying yang.

As it is we assigned a bunch to the ECHL.

The coach needs to see the player play, so right now he's below guys that look good together.

 

We shall see if he gets minutes.

If not, just send him on his way.

[jjgallow]

3 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

We have way too many forwards on the Heat right now.

ATO's up the ying yang.

As it is we assigned a bunch to the ECHL.

The coach needs to see the player play, so right now he's below guys that look good together.

 

We shall see if he gets minutes.

If not, just send him on his way.

 

There is just no way a 19 year old can win spots from a 23 year old on the edge of the NHL.  So we know how that will play.    Agreed there are way too many.

 

I feel the Flames just acquired lots and lots of depth players in areas they are weak, in doing so though none of them are actually good enough for the NHL, they are only good to delay prospect development. 

 

In any case, I do concede that it would be fun to watch Francis in another year in junior

[kehatch]

The Heat are a pretty young team. Pelletier and Wolf are only a year older then Francis and they are leading the team at the moment. Zary and Pettersson got key opportunities at important time last season. So did Mackey (not young, but was a rookie.) Any player trying to make it in the AHL is going to be competing against tweeners.

 

A young guy getting third line minutes doesn't necessarily reflect a failure to provide opportunities. More often then not it reflects the play and readiness of the young guy. And sometimes the prospect doesn't turn out, and for 5 round picks that is more common then not. I am not saying that will be the case for Francis, but it's a reasonable possibility. 

 

I suggest a bit of patience JJ. Prospect development is a bumpy and usually long road. Preseason is too early for "told you so" and 4 games is too early for "failing to provide opportunities." 

 

Mangiapane was in a similar situation in his +2 season. Going up against tweeners and adults, smaller player picked late in the draft. I don't recall his first 4 games, but he had some challenges at points that season. He turned out okay. 

[jjgallow]

3 hours ago, kehatch said:

The Heat are a pretty young team. Pelletier and Wolf are only a year older then Francis and they are leading the team at the moment. Zary and Pettersson got key opportunities at important time last season. So did Mackey (not young, but was a rookie.) Any player trying to make it in the AHL is going to be competing against tweeners.

 

A young guy getting third line minutes doesn't necessarily reflect a failure to provide opportunities. More often then not it reflects the play and readiness of the young guy. And sometimes the prospect doesn't turn out, and for 5 round picks that is more common then not. I am not saying that will be the case for Francis, but it's a reasonable possibility. 

 

I suggest a bit of patience JJ. Prospect development is a bumpy and usually long road. Preseason is too early for "told you so" and 4 games is too early for "failing to provide opportunities." 

 

Mangiapane was in a similar situation in his +2 season. Going up against tweeners and adults, smaller player picked late in the draft. I don't recall his first 4 games, but he had some challenges at points that season. He turned out okay. 

 

These are mostly all good points and I understand that, but sometimes waiting isn't the solution to every problem.     

 

The Flames acquired a large number of players too old to really be considered prospects and not good enough to be in the NHL.    That was their big offseason move.   For this particular issue I don't see how waiting is going to solve anything, unless said players get a lot better or a lot younger.     I am a little worried for Wolf here too on this.   One bad streak from him and we won't see him either.

 

That's my issue.  And you're right about Mangiapane.   https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagues/seasons/teams/0073932017.html

 

There was one difference though.   He wasn't marred by an infusion of 23-24 year olds.   And I don't know that he would turn out like he did if he was.
     In that year, Stockton had 21 players under the age of 23.

 

This year, we have 8.    So I'm not sure how young that really is.

 

 

(edit:   Ok, two differences, Mangiapane was a year older for everything including this comparison, but it's the best comparison we have)

[cross16]

2 hours ago, kehatch said:

The Heat are a pretty young team. Pelletier and Wolf are only a year older then Francis and they are leading the team at the moment. Zary and Pettersson got key opportunities at important time last season. So did Mackey (not young, but was a rookie.) Any player trying to make it in the AHL is going to be competing against tweeners.

 

to add to this, the Flames philosophy is to use the AHL team to build up their NHL prospects. They instruct their coaches to put the prospects in NHL situations and if it means they lose the game so be it. They are less concerned about the AHL team winning games than they are having their prospects develop. They want their young guys in keg situations, late in game situations, and learning at that level. 
 

Most of the older guys they bring in are for veteran presence and depth but it’s the young players and prospects who they lean on more. 
 

It’s a bit of a weird situation with him. He’s likely too good for junior and better served in the A but at the same time his team will be in the memorial cup so a great chance to lead and experience that plus Stockton is deep at forward. I like the idea of having him get some pro experience. 
 

my guess though is he’ll go back to junior when Zary is healthy 

[conundrumed]

On 10/24/2021 at 9:25 AM, kehatch said:

The Heat are a pretty young team. Pelletier and Wolf are only a year older then Francis and they are leading the team at the moment. Zary and Pettersson got key opportunities at important time last season. So did Mackey (not young, but was a rookie.) Any player trying to make it in the AHL is going to be competing against tweeners.

 

A young guy getting third line minutes doesn't necessarily reflect a failure to provide opportunities. More often then not it reflects the play and readiness of the young guy. And sometimes the prospect doesn't turn out, and for 5 round picks that is more common then not. I am not saying that will be the case for Francis, but it's a reasonable possibility. 

 

I suggest a bit of patience JJ. Prospect development is a bumpy and usually long road. Preseason is too early for "told you so" and 4 games is too early for "failing to provide opportunities." 

 

Mangiapane was in a similar situation in his +2 season. Going up against tweeners and adults, smaller player picked late in the draft. I don't recall his first 4 games, but he had some challenges at points that season. He turned out okay. 

All 3 are 2001 birth years, Zary too.