Blow It Up?

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, robrob74 said:

 

I think both are true. I am with Jtech as well, being afraid of BTs vision or lack of one. He has been good at drafting but so far lacking in building a team or vision or culture within it. 

 

My biggest criticism of BT is that early on, he spoke about patience and that he's all about the future.  Basically that he's committed to rebuilding properly and not rushing it.

 

Then his actions showed us something different.

 

Maybe the playoff win against the Canucks convinced him we were done the rebuild.  He started to traded away picks for Hamilton and Hamonic... Who trades away picks during a rebuild?  BT very quickly went from a guy who preached the future to a guy who was all about the shortcut-win-now trade (which I grant him, he was good at). BT also began signing some UFAs like Brouwer and Neal... Just thinking we were just a RW away.

[robrob74]

6 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

My biggest criticism of BT is that early on, he spoke about patience and that he's all about the future.  Basically that he's committed to rebuilding properly and not rushing it.

 

Then his actions showed us something different.

 

Maybe the playoff win against the Canucks convinced him we were done the rebuild.  He started to traded away picks for Hamilton and Hamonic... Who trades away picks during a rebuild?  BT very quickly went from a guy who preached the future to a guy who was all about the shortcut-win-now trade (which I grant him, he was good at). BT also began signing some UFAs like Brouwer and Neal... Just thinking we were just a RW away.

 

agree! We were about two more top10 picks away plus some of the finds the team was able to get in the 2nd round. Now I feel like we have bare cupboards. There are a few possibles, but just not enough. 

[JTech780]

6 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

My biggest criticism of BT is that early on, he spoke about patience and that he's all about the future.  Basically that he's committed to rebuilding properly and not rushing it.

 

Then his actions showed us something different.

 

Maybe the playoff win against the Canucks convinced him we were done the rebuild.  He started to traded away picks for Hamilton and Hamonic... Who trades away picks during a rebuild?  BT very quickly went from a guy who preached the future to a guy who was all about the shortcut-win-now trade (which I grant him, he was good at). BT also began signing some UFAs like Brouwer and Neal... Just thinking we were just a RW away.

 

I think the biggest problem is probably ownership. I could be wrong but I believe they put the pressure on Treliving to start making the playoffs.

 

I also think that he thought he had is core in place so he decided to try and help augment the core with pieces like Hamilton, Harmonic, Neal.

 

What we have learned is that he had the wrong core in place. 

 

5 years ago like future looked great Monahan was looking like a number 1 center, Gaudreau looked like a fantastic playmaking winger. Bennett was showing all kinds power forward potential. Giordano was in his prime. Backlund was showing up as a shut down center. The pieces were there, they just didn't all develop the way you would have hoped for.

 

Now it's time to go to the drawing board.

[sak22]

2 hours ago, robrob74 said:

 

No!

 

Lindholm does not equal Hamilton! Especially the talk of the player Lindholm was in Carolina. He was a middle six player and Hanifin was a bottom 6D maybe a #4 and was his top possibility. 
 

so there now you have Hamilton and Ferland for the two. I still didn’t see it as an even trade. 
 

Lindholm hasn’t worked on the top line for well over a year now, well, since the all star break of last season.

 

and I don’t agree On Backlund. Had the top line performed for the two playoffs it’s possibly a different story. Without Tkachuk, Mangiapane could only do so much and the line started going when Lindholm got on it. 

Leading goal scorer, playing the entire season either with the biggest underachievers or out of position.  56 goals and 132 points in 2 seasons, plays all situations and multiple positions for under 5 million for 4 more years.  If the entire team was up for sale I'd guarantee he'd get the most calls and possibly the best return.  But the catch to moving him is you may never get a contract that valuable.  So we have two still young players, one entering his prime and one still growing and showing positive signs lately, both locked up for 4 more years.  After next season Dougie could potentially make close to both of them combined.  Maybe you'd of rather moved Dougie to similar to what he cost us to acquire, but with that you run the risk of doing exactly what Boston did, 3 picks and 5 years later very little to show for.  Crazy look at Boston in 2015, 3 straight 1sts and only Debrusk to show, the 3 their last one after were Barzal, Connor, and Chabot.  They pick Forsbacka-Karlsson at 45 a few picks later is Hintz, Lauzon at 52 right before Andersson. 

 

As many may doubt this, but at the time of the first Hamilton trade we had the Brodie-Giordano pairing, Russell-Wideman (Russell on his last year, and Wideman was in his 30's and already slow), and Engelland.  Our prospect pool that was playing in the A was Wotherspoon, Cundari, Culkin, Ramage, Kulak, Sieloff and Morrison that is just scary.  We left that draft with a 22 year old Hamilton, Andersson and Kylington.  The Hamonic trade for sure a terrible waste, but I'll argue with anyone that the Hamilton trades were good moves for the Flames any day of the week.

 

 

[Thebrewcrew]

Treliving’s worst trade was definitely the Hamonic one.

 

He was guilty of falling in love with the character of the player and overpaid for it. You really only got one good season out of him.

 

I also found it crazy he didn’t put any protection on that 1st. Noah Dobson would have looked really good as a Flame

[The_People1]

4 hours ago, JTech780 said:

 

I think the biggest problem is probably ownership. I could be wrong but I believe they put the pressure on Treliving to start making the playoffs.

 

Well, in general yes but those early years I think BT would've gotten a free pass because the roster was so bad.  But a playoff win in year 2 and suddenly BT fell for it.  The roster tricked him.  And yes, ownership probably pressured him to keep aiming for the playoffs.

 

Those were critical draft and development years mainly because ownership had no choice but to rebuild and be patient.

[sak22]

47 minutes ago, The_People1 said:

 

Well, in general yes but those early years I think BT would've gotten a free pass because the roster was so bad.  But a playoff win in year 2 and suddenly BT fell for it.  The roster tricked him.  And yes, ownership probably pressured him to keep aiming for the playoffs.

 

Those were critical draft and development years mainly because ownership had no choice but to rebuild and be patient.

What did ownership do exactly?  Let him sign Frolik?  They seemed fine not extending Hudler or Russell after that season (in fact made no real attempt to sign him), again ownership hellbent on the playoffs don't allow that.  They also didn't seem to force a move to get a goalie when Hiller, Ramo or Ortio shat the bed in '16, even nixed a Bishop trade the next year twice because they didn't want to pay him, Sutter had no issues getting them to pay up.  These "critical draft and development" years after making the playoffs in 2015 were 2015 and 2016, 2015 we have 3 NHLers and now have a top line RW (which we may not even have otherwise) and a top 4 D-man, I'd call the 2015 draft a success.  The 2016 draft we made 9 selections, and the only downfall of that was that our 3rd round steal didn't want to play here.  After that it turns bleak, but only because of some moves that didn't pan out like Hamonic and Lazar, and Smith.  But I don't think the shift started after making the playoffs the first time.  Ownership accepts responsibility for sure, but can't pin everything on them either, this still fully falls on the players for me they just can't get it done when it matters.

[The_People1]

45 minutes ago, sak22 said:

What did ownership do exactly?  Let him sign Frolik?  They seemed fine not extending Hudler or Russell after that season (in fact made no real attempt to sign him), again ownership hellbent on the playoffs don't allow that.  They also didn't seem to force a move to get a goalie when Hiller, Ramo or Ortio shat the bed in '16, even nixed a Bishop trade the next year twice because they didn't want to pay him, Sutter had no issues getting them to pay up.  These "critical draft and development" years after making the playoffs in 2015 were 2015 and 2016, 2015 we have 3 NHLers and now have a top line RW (which we may not even have otherwise) and a top 4 D-man, I'd call the 2015 draft a success.  The 2016 draft we made 9 selections, and the only downfall of that was that our 3rd round steal didn't want to play here.  After that it turns bleak, but only because of some moves that didn't pan out like Hamonic and Lazar, and Smith.  But I don't think the shift started after making the playoffs the first time.  Ownership accepts responsibility for sure, but can't pin everything on them either, this still fully falls on the players for me they just can't get it done when it matters.

 

Just saying the leash was very long when BT first arrived.

 

After the playoff win, we traded for Dougie Hamilton.  That's 3 picks right there.  I know Dougie was still young and all but that signaled the Flames were no longer rebuilding and is going to be a playoff team in intent.  I'm not even arguing the Dougie trade was bad.  I thought it was a good trade at the time value wise.  I still think it's a good trade value wise today.

 

What i'm getting at is philosophy, planning, and sticking to the vision.

[robrob74]

7 hours ago, sak22 said:

Leading goal scorer, playing the entire season either with the biggest underachievers or out of position.  56 goals and 132 points in 2 seasons, plays all situations and multiple positions for under 5 million for 4 more years.  If the entire team was up for sale I'd guarantee he'd get the most calls and possibly the best return.  But the catch to moving him is you may never get a contract that valuable.  So we have two still young players, one entering his prime and one still growing and showing positive signs lately, both locked up for 4 more years.  After next season Dougie could potentially make close to both of them combined.  Maybe you'd of rather moved Dougie to similar to what he cost us to acquire, but with that you run the risk of doing exactly what Boston did, 3 picks and 5 years later very little to show for.  Crazy look at Boston in 2015, 3 straight 1sts and only Debrusk to show, the 3 their last one after were Barzal, Connor, and Chabot.  They pick Forsbacka-Karlsson at 45 a few picks later is Hintz, Lauzon at 52 right before Andersson. 

 

As many may doubt this, but at the time of the first Hamilton trade we had the Brodie-Giordano pairing, Russell-Wideman (Russell on his last year, and Wideman was in his 30's and already slow), and Engelland.  Our prospect pool that was playing in the A was Wotherspoon, Cundari, Culkin, Ramage, Kulak, Sieloff and Morrison that is just scary.  We left that draft with a 22 year old Hamilton, Andersson and Kylington.  The Hamonic trade for sure a terrible waste, but I'll argue with anyone that the Hamilton trades were good moves for the Flames any day of the week.

 

 

 

hey! I am not meaning to put Lindholm down but at the time of the deal he was fully tending Backlund and that was what I heard from a lot of reporters and even heard worse on Hanifin, who I still don’t really like. I feel Hanifin has all of the tools but has no mind to use them.

 

Lindholm  did get a lot of points last year from being on the first line. This year he had less. i feel the Backlund comparison is good. He only had 10 more points than him this year. 
 

I do like him, I am just not happy with the deal and it was in response to us trading Fox in the deal, which I will always think it should’ve been a complete separate deal. We should’ve gotten that 2nd rounder. 
 

look I really like him, I just agree that Hamilton for Lindholm as a straight up deal is fair value (at the time). And that’s what someone was equating it to. And sure Hanifin might have been worth more than Ferland. But I feel at the time Ferland had a Satoshi Nakamoto ton of intangibles that a lot aren’t recognizing in the deal. 
 

all in all, I am just say that fox didn’t need to be in the deal. And I would’ve walked if I wee BT. Hamilton is a RHS first pair D. 
 

I get what you’re saying. Good on BT for signing him at the contract. But we are forgetting that Lindholm was worth that when he signed. His numbers were pretty close to Backlund and Lindholm is pretty much seen as a winger. If Lindholm was worth more then why would he have signed for less than his worth with a brand new team. It just so happened that he worked really well with Gaudreau in the first year. 
 

before coming to the Flames for Lindholm’s career he only averaged 37.6. Points per season. So I think his contract was quite in line with what he had done prior to coming to the Flames. It’s easy to say now after the season he had last year and this year to say he was worth it at the time. He did nothing before the deal to say this is what he was going to be. 
 

then and I still somewhat agree with button them at Hanifin is a borderline 4/5 D. He’s not remotely close to Hamilton. He has no smarts. He has the tools but no box to put them in. 

[jjgallow]

9 hours ago, sak22 said:

Leading goal scorer, playing the entire season either with the biggest underachievers or out of position.  56 goals and 132 points in 2 seasons, plays all situations and multiple positions for under 5 million for 4 more years.  If the entire team was up for sale I'd guarantee he'd get the most calls and possibly the best return.  But the catch to moving him is you may never get a contract that valuable.  So we have two still young players, one entering his prime and one still growing and showing positive signs lately, both locked up for 4 more years.  After next season Dougie could potentially make close to both of them combined.  Maybe you'd of rather moved Dougie to similar to what he cost us to acquire, but with that you run the risk of doing exactly what Boston did, 3 picks and 5 years later very little to show for.  Crazy look at Boston in 2015, 3 straight 1sts and only Debrusk to show, the 3 their last one after were Barzal, Connor, and Chabot.  They pick Forsbacka-Karlsson at 45 a few picks later is Hintz, Lauzon at 52 right before Andersson. 

 

As many may doubt this, but at the time of the first Hamilton trade we had the Brodie-Giordano pairing, Russell-Wideman (Russell on his last year, and Wideman was in his 30's and already slow), and Engelland.  Our prospect pool that was playing in the A was Wotherspoon, Cundari, Culkin, Ramage, Kulak, Sieloff and Morrison that is just scary.  We left that draft with a 22 year old Hamilton, Andersson and Kylington.  The Hamonic trade for sure a terrible waste, but I'll argue with anyone that the Hamilton trades were good moves for the Flames any day of the week.

 

I'm also a huge Lindholm fan but I'll also take you up on this any day of the week (this is not actually true I'll probably go days/weeks without replying, but I'd like to)

 

You just...don't...give up...young elite defencemen.

 

Period.

 

They gave up two.   That's like losing the trade twice.

[The_Tribal Chief]

Im Really Honestly Scared this team is Gonna Get Hosed when they try to Trade Jh cause What is he really Worth he doesnt score even strengh just on the pp and really how much are players worth that Cant Score 5vs5 in regular season or play offs and there only Good side is they can score great on a Good Power play System..

Like really is it worth Trading Jh with alot of the faults we have seen and alot of the other gm's have also seen these aswell so it is really gonna Drop his market Value a Truck load imo...

[travel_dude]

If the reaction to a team losing to a team like Dallas is "blow it up", then we are certainly overreacting.

We were beat mostly by a couple of D-men and some secondary scoring.

We had some D-men playing that wouldn't be the types you would roll into the playoffs with.

Admittedly, the top 4 were on for more goals except maybe Forbort.

The top line was barely able to generate any offense.

Even the Backlund line struggled.

 

So, that really means we have a few pieces that impact how the team played.

Gaudreau able to generate some rushes, but neutralized fairly quickly.

Johnny is unable to lend a hand defensively.

Like at all.

Would never be able to block a shot.

 

Backlund struggled.

There's no two ways about it.

With a struggling Backlund and no Tkachuk, the line was doomed.

 

Defense.

Inability to transition to offense.

Defending was a lot of chasing.

 

Goaltending.

Talbot was what we needed except for one game where he lost the puck.

No backup ready considering it's the one thing a team needs in the playoffs.

Rittich was ruined by the time he got the start.

 

So, really, we are a couple of pieces away from being able to contend.  Not a perennial contender but one that could work hard and contend.

As good as Backlund and Johnn are regular season, they seem to take a step back in the playoffs.

We need a player like Bennett to take over the C spot.

And a winger to be able to do things you need.

Monahan isn;t going to be worse off with a player with speed.

Tkachuk wouldn't be worse off playing with a more offensive C.

I've got nothing against Brodie, but between him and Gio we needed a bit more.

3rd paid isn't a huge need.  We have some pieces we could use or add a RD.

 

 

 

[sak22]

14 hours ago, The_People1 said:

 

Just saying the leash was very long when BT first arrived.

 

After the playoff win, we traded for Dougie Hamilton.  That's 3 picks right there.  I know Dougie was still young and all but that signaled the Flames were no longer rebuilding and is going to be a playoff team in intent.  I'm not even arguing the Dougie trade was bad.  I thought it was a good trade at the time value wise.  I still think it's a good trade value wise today.

 

What i'm getting at is philosophy, planning, and sticking to the vision.

Yeah I just don't see it the same, a change in philosophy would've been keep the leading scorer from that season at all costs, keep a heart and soul player like Russell.

 

But why people only on Treliving or ownership, we had a POHO at the time, I'm sure he had a lot of input on that team at the time.  But I'm kind of done arguing the past here, its all pointless.  Every team makes bad decisions, what do we get out arguing about 2015 or 2018 in 2020, besides something to do for the next 4 months?  I'd rather argue over ideas on how to get ahead.

[The_People1]

1 hour ago, sak22 said:

Yeah I just don't see it the same, a change in philosophy would've been keep the leading scorer from that season at all costs, keep a heart and soul player like Russell.

 

But why people only on Treliving or ownership, we had a POHO at the time, I'm sure he had a lot of input on that team at the time.  But I'm kind of done arguing the past here, its all pointless.  Every team makes bad decisions, what do we get out arguing about 2015 or 2018 in 2020, besides something to do for the next 4 months?  I'd rather argue over ideas on how to get ahead.

 

We beat the Canucks in 2015... That summer we traded for Hamilton.  Hudler and Russell were both back for 2015/16.  That summer we should've just drafted instead of getting Hamilton.  We should've sold Hudler and Russell at their peaks.  Lots of things we should've done to continue rebuilding.

 

We didn't.  Again, Hamilton was a good trade just bad timing.  It's something we should do at this stage of our build rather than 5 years ago when we needed the picks.

 

Put that all aside though.  BT and co is using this playoffs to gauge what they have.  OMG.  In other words, is reactionary rather than proactionary (not sure if that's even a word)... Anyways, I get we need to evaluate players based on performance but to be so reactionary is enough proof to say we have no long term vision.

[jjgallow]

8 hours ago, travel_dude said:

If the reaction to a team losing to a team like Dallas is "blow it up", then we are certainly overreacting.

 

 

ok but clearly this is not the case.

 

This is a reaction to accomplishing Zero in the playoffs for the last 6 years BT was in charge and basically 10 years of nothingless since last rebuild.

 

We're talking about a failed rebuild by any playoff measure.

 

We're talking about the last decade, we're talking about a downward trend and an aging core which couldn't cut in in their prime, we're talking about an empty pipeline due to trading our future away.

 

I think it's borderline misleading to call this a reaction to the Stars.   Not that losing to the stars is much of a confidence booster.

[DirtyDeeds]

On 8/20/2020 at 11:09 PM, The_People1 said:

Please vote.

 

While it may be unlikely the Flames make any major changes this off-season, how much change would you like to see?  How much change do you think is required to make a real difference?

I think we need to let the new core and leaders take charge. We have some young and exciting prospects ready to step in and play, so lets let them. 

 

Just because Johnny and Money have not been able to take/lead us to promised land does not mean they should be traded. Give them different responcabilities instead of lead roles as core pieces.

 

[The_Tribal Chief]

Hearing From a Friend of mine That Has Heard there Not keeping Geoff Ward i cant say 100% but he says he has friends in the organization that say this so i guess we will see

[jjgallow]

On 8/23/2020 at 8:10 PM, The_Snowbear said:

Hearing From a Friend of mine That Has Heard there Not keeping Geoff Ward i cant say 100% but he says he has friends in the organization that say this so i guess we will see

 

Is BT's go-to move, so, pretty believable.

[The_People1]

On 8/23/2020 at 6:08 PM, DirtyDeeds said:

I think we need to let the new core and leaders take charge. We have some young and exciting prospects ready to step in and play, so lets let them. 

 

Just because Johnny and Money have not been able to take/lead us to promised land does not mean they should be traded. Give them different responcabilities instead of lead roles as core pieces.

 

 

So basically keep the same team just pass the torch to the younger kids?  

[travel_dude]

11 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

Is BT's go-to move, so, pretty believable.

 

Actually, BP did him a solid by quitting.

He would not fire Ward, so it's not the typical MO as you suggest.

 

Everyone has a part to play in the loss.

Huska, Ward, players.

BT didn't get them what they really needed to go deep.

Lots of failed attempts.

Gus and Forbort was not well thought out.

ONe would have been fine.

We still would have been able to compete.

I suspect Gus would have made the most sense.

 

[jjgallow]

3 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

Actually, BP did him a solid by quitting.

He would not fire Ward, so it's not the typical MO as you suggest.

 

Well that BP thing was a legal technicality, a couple fired coaches before him too.

 

Did BT come out and say he wouldn't fire Ward?   If so I missed it.

[travel_dude]

29 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

Well that BP thing was a legal technicality, a couple fired coaches before him too.

 

Did BT come out and say he wouldn't fire Ward?   If so I missed it.

 

Does he have to?

If he decides to hire a new coach, he hasn't fired Ward.

The coach and Ward would sit down and make that decision about stepping down as Assistant coach.

[CheersMan]

Looks like the old, slow, has-beens DAL team that cant score goals has dropped a grenade on the young, fast, talented, goal machine COL team too. COL should be blowing it up in a few days. Heck, 30 teams will be blowing it up once the SC is awarded. This thread title should be Blown-up!

[travel_dude]

12 minutes ago, CheersMan said:

Looks like the old, slow, has-beens DAL team that cant score goals has dropped a grenade on the young, fast, talented, goal machine COL team too. COL should be blowing it up in a few days. Heck, 30 teams will be blowing it up once the SC is awarded. This thread title should be Blown-up!

 

Ha ha.  Appropriate isn't it.  The cup contending team losing to a team that can pounce.

I actually think we could have matched up against them this year, but that would have to have been 3rd round.

 

I don't like the way we lost to Dallas, so there is obviously a problem.

Just don't think it is scorched earth problems.

[JTech780]

The only reason we beat a depleted Winnipeg and had chance to beat Dallas, was because of great goaltending from Talbot, and the 3rd line. The 2nd line was ok. For the 2nd year in a row the top line was a no show. 

 

If our top 6 can't show up in the playoffs, then we aren't close. Getting another coach, isn't going to make a difference, because we have tried that. Getting a Taylor Hall isn't going to change anything, because one player isn't going to make 5 other top 6 players become playoff performers.

 

For me Gaudreau needs to go, and one of if not both Monahan or Backlund need to go, if not both. These players are good players, but they just don't have that ability to raise their game and to raise others around them when the pressure is at it's highest. I think it's time for a change. This core got it's shot, it didn't work, now it's time to move on.