Blow It Up?

[jjgallow]

There is one silver lining in all of this...

 

Pretty high chance all of this playoff season ends Iin some horrific Covid breakout.    

 

Not wishing this just stating obvious.

[travel_dude]

38 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

There is one silver lining in all of this...

 

Pretty high chance all of this playoff season ends Iin some horrific Covid breakout.    

 

Not wishing this just stating obvious.

 

Of any sports, this has been the least impacted by COVID.

Even though guys were "unfit" to play, there was zero positives in the past month. 

[JTech780]

For me right now Gaudreau, Monahan, and Backlund should all be available and on the block. If the offers are good enough you move them. To me that is the core group, that has failed for the last 5 or so years here. You can add Gio to that, but he isn't going anywhere. Don't get me wrong either, I really like all those players, but this core has had plenty of chances to get things done and it hasn't happened and it hasn't worked, and those are the guys who need to take the fall.

[tmac70]

So we lost in similar fashion last year,  this was a larger collapes than last year.  This club has no killer instinct to it, that comes from leadership. All of us refer to our best players, which really who are they? Stand outs were Benny and Dube, yet months ago Benny was being booked onto the next bus out of town, now he is oneof our better warriors. If I am him I want out. This club has failed in every aspect of his development, that falls on Tre.  Tre's strong ponts have been contracts to fair deals, drafitng has improved but really that was not that difficult to do. My question ahs always been how is it other clubs can find gems and we find fools gold. So based on last year as we were suppose to have learned from this, are we any better, simple stated NO. The problems have yet to be addressed. First what is are largest issue, players, coaches, management or culture. IMHO i would break down in these percetnages, Players, 30%, coahces 10%, Management 10%, Culture 50%. Now the culture really falls into the scope of management, however, if you don't have the type of make up to create a better culture you have piss poor management. Take Hamilton for example, great dman now on his 4th team why? Before Tre went out and traded the world for a guy that could not fit into this culture falls on him. Hamonic, Brouwer, Lucic it goes on and on. We fail to realize this is the club he built and its fails under ever pressure situation. Having a bad ending to a season happens repeating two years in a row is plain stupidity. 

 

Whats the soltution? We need a 1st line center, top pairing D definelty a goalie a coach and a top 6 right winger and a winning culture.  I know there is talk of geting Petro dream on that isn't happenig. Hall I can see however if he wants to win a cup, sign a short term deal with COL they are further ahead than we are. Trading JG to sign Hall is pointless its a laterall move at best. SIgning Hall to play with JG makes us better. We have now leared Dube and Bennett can play when given team mates to do so. We also learned our Captain is on a huge down turn.  Hanifin is not as bad as he appeared with a better partner. Monahan is not a top line center nor is Lindholm. Our goalie situation is lack lustre as well.  Brodie and Hammer will walk area of soreness with me, any assets were better than no assets coming back, neither should be back, which much like the Hamilton trade we paid huge with nothing to show.. Some have mentioned that getting anything for JG if he wants to leave is better than nothing, similar situation. 

[rocketdoctor]

Gio - your organisation shows no class if you ship Gio out.    A Captain is more than just his on ice presence.   In today's world he is an ambasador between the community and club and if you think Gio is going to be moved by the Flames think again.  It's not going to happen.

 

Now I also think Gio is a realist.  He will know in himself he has not had his best season.  I can see him pass the C on to someone else but I actually do not think there is a suitable replacement.  Some will say Tkchuk but I would disagree i don't think he needs the C as it would take away from his style of game.   And outside of Matty who has the cahunas to take this club out of country club mentality?   Nearest for me is Anderson maybe Dube in the futrure but heere is no one on this club that screams make me your Captain.

 

Oh and as much as I have loved watching JH I think it is time to ship him out to the East if we can get a decent return for him which in times of a flat is going to be real hard as his contract looks pretty decent.

 

 

[robrob74]

4 hours ago, sak22 said:

Hey I was just throwing it to how you worded it.  You never mentioned anything about his "virtue signaling" to his core you alluded to it being making difficult decisions and he probably had better relationships with UFA's he signed and coaches he's hired than a core of players who were mostly here before he started, and I don't know what his personal relationships are with all those players, so I don't think that is stopping any movements as much as a thought of if it will help the team.  Gaudreau and Tkachuk we could probably move to most teams, Monahan would have a lot of takers, Gio maybe not as much given his age.  But for every good trade of stars there's probably 2 or 3 bad ones. 

 

Pittsburgh got lucky in the 2 years being able to get Malkin and Crosby, because they got absolutely nothing for Jagr and Kovalev in their sell off trades.  Perhaps in today's day and age instead of Malkin and Crosby they get Barker and Pouliot. Good chances they aren't even in Pittsburgh if that's the case, and that would boil down more to what they got in the trades.  I'm just saying be careful what you wish for, I'm down for a major change, but I think we have the pieces to do a retool instead of heading to the lottery and relying on that.  I just watched a series where probably the best player on the ice was a #3 pick who is hands down better than the #1 and #2 and worse than the #5 and debatable if he is as good as the #4.  

 

not to mention getting Fleury.

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, tmac70 said:

So we lost in similar fashion last year,  this was a larger collapes than last year.  This club has no killer instinct to it, that comes from leadership. All of us refer to our best players, which really who are they? Stand outs were Benny and Dube, yet months ago Benny was being booked onto the next bus out of town, now he is oneof our better warriors. If I am him I want out. This club has failed in every aspect of his development, that falls on Tre.  Tre's strong ponts have been contracts to fair deals, drafitng has improved but really that was not that difficult to do. My question ahs always been how is it other clubs can find gems and we find fools gold. So based on last year as we were suppose to have learned from this, are we any better, simple stated NO. The problems have yet to be addressed. First what is are largest issue, players, coaches, management or culture. IMHO i would break down in these percetnages, Players, 30%, coahces 10%, Management 10%, Culture 50%. Now the culture really falls into the scope of management, however, if you don't have the type of make up to create a better culture you have piss poor management. Take Hamilton for example, great dman now on his 4th team why? Before Tre went out and traded the world for a guy that could not fit into this culture falls on him. Hamonic, Brouwer, Lucic it goes on and on. We fail to realize this is the club he built and its fails under ever pressure situation. Having a bad ending to a season happens repeating two years in a row is plain stupidity. 

 

Whats the soltution? We need a 1st line center, top pairing D definelty a goalie a coach and a top 6 right winger and a winning culture.  I know there is talk of geting Petro dream on that isn't happenig. Hall I can see however if he wants to win a cup, sign a short term deal with COL they are further ahead than we are. Trading JG to sign Hall is pointless its a laterall move at best. SIgning Hall to play with JG makes us better. We have now leared Dube and Bennett can play when given team mates to do so. We also learned our Captain is on a huge down turn.  Hanifin is not as bad as he appeared with a better partner. Monahan is not a top line center nor is Lindholm. Our goalie situation is lack lustre as well.  Brodie and Hammer will walk area of soreness with me, any assets were better than no assets coming back, neither should be back, which much like the Hamilton trade we paid huge with nothing to show.. Some have mentioned that getting anything for JG if he wants to leave is better than nothing, similar situation. 

I fully agree! The culture is all wrong and there’s very little cohesion. They show small spurts of it. 
 

I also dream of finding gems in drafts that other teams seem to always do. It’s hard. 
 

we’ve heard growing pains too often. We are built on too much skill and not with guys to win at all cost kind of players. Skill is great! But then if they’re not wanting to win more than another team, it’s not there.
 

Plus, how much more skilled are we compared to other teams? 

[robrob74]

1 hour ago, JTech780 said:

For me right now Gaudreau, Monahan, and Backlund should all be available and on the block. If the offers are good enough you move them. To me that is the core group, that has failed for the last 5 or so years here. You can add Gio to that, but he isn't going anywhere. Don't get me wrong either, I really like all those players, but this core has had plenty of chances to get things done and it hasn't happened and it hasn't worked, and those are the guys who need to take the fall.

 

I still don’t think Backlund was a problem. After Tkachuk goes down he ends up with just Mangiapane. He looked a bit better with Lindholm. I’d keep them together. Tkachuk, Backlund and Lindholm. 
 

what Center are we getting to play with Tkachuk? We need a #1 but it’s going to cost and it’s rare.

[travel_dude]

1 minute ago, robrob74 said:

 

I still don’t think Backlund was a problem. After Tkachuk goes down he ends up with just Mangiapane. He looked a bit better with Lindholm. I’d keep them together. Tkachuk, Backlund and Lindholm. 
 

what Center are we getting to play with Tkachuk? We need a #1 but it’s going to cost and it’s rare.

 

I think what he is saying that these C's had 5 years and nothing has improved.

Backlund is a fine player, no question.

Same way Gaudreau is a fine player.

I don't think that's up for debate.

 

Your core doesn't get it done, time to look at improving/trading the core.

Barrie and Kerfoot not helping the AVS get it done.

Time to move on.

 

[robrob74]

19 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

I think what he is saying that these C's had 5 years and nothing has improved.

Backlund is a fine player, no question.

Same way Gaudreau is a fine player.

I don't think that's up for debate.

 

Your core doesn't get it done, time to look at improving/trading the core.

Barrie and Kerfoot not helping the AVS get it done.

Time to move on.

 

 

I get the reference, but they got Kadri for that. Can we get a Kadri ? Can we get a #1 or #2 C ? 

[travel_dude]

9 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

I get the reference, but they got Kadri for that. Can we get a Kadri ? Can we get a #1 or #2 C ? 

 

Yes, please.  I've got no beefs with Gaudreau or Monahan or Backlund.  We just aren't getting it done.

It may be something else holding them back, but I don't know.

I don't think Gaudreau is the right fit, mostly due to how he has tailed off and not shown up in the playoffs.

It's not even a question of being soft.

It's just overall performance.

[robrob74]

I really feel like BT isn’t really chasing his vision. He wants to play a style that the team can’t play long term. 
 

plus culture of the team is horrible. 
 

o think it is mentally soft. Maybe not physically as I too don’t see them backing down in hits. 

[Thebrewcrew]

22 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

I really feel like BT isn’t really chasing his vision. He wants to play a style that the team can’t play long term. 
 

plus culture of the team is horrible. 
 

o think it is mentally soft. Maybe not physically as I too don’t see them backing down in hits. 

I think that ownership, GM, coach and players are all guilty here

 

First of all ownership won't shell out for a legit coach. Coaching makes a difference. Look at what Torts does in CBJ and Trotz in NYI. If an unproven coach is behind those benches, they don't have the success that they have had.

 

Then there's the musical chairs of coaches. Hartley wasn't BT's guy, so a change was expected. His first hire was Gulutzan, which was a really off the board hire, but then again his hands were tied. He probably fired Gulutzan a year too early, but he loved Peters. The Flames have had almost no continuity behind the bench, which is on the GM.

 

Then there's the players, they consistently tune out the coaches. Peters was supposed to be the "Goldy Locks and 3 bears" hire, Hartley was too mean, Gully was too nice, Peters was supposed to be just right. Ultimately, all 3 coaches weren't able to get through to the team after a year on the job. Ward did some good things, but based on the way it's trended, they would tune him out next year

[sak22]

30 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said:

I think that ownership, GM, coach and players are all guilty here

 

First of all ownership won't shell out for a legit coach. Coaching makes a difference. Look at what Torts does in CBJ and Trotz in NYI. If an unproven coach is behind those benches, they don't have the success that they have had.

 

Then there's the musical chairs of coaches. Hartley wasn't BT's guy, so a change was expected. His first hire was Gulutzan, which was a really off the board hire, but then again his hands were tied. He probably fired Gulutzan a year too early, but he loved Peters. The Flames have had almost no continuity behind the bench, which is on the GM.

 

Then there's the players, they consistently tune out the coaches. Peters was supposed to be the "Goldy Locks and 3 bears" hire, Hartley was too mean, Gully was too nice, Peters was supposed to be just right. Ultimately, all 3 coaches weren't able to get through to the team after a year on the job. Ward did some good things, but based on the way it's trended, they would tune him out next year

The issues are with the coaches as well.  Lucic spoke of not getting an answer from Peters for being benched, Sarich spoke the same about Hartley and he mentions being blasted by Torts publicly as easier to deal with than Hartley giving the cold shoulder.  If your only technique for motivation is being an a-hole I have no sympathy for you when people decide not to work for you, and these aren't missed opportunities at great coaches, my money is none of them will be a head coach in the league again and it isn't because of the Flames players, it is either because they are either a horrible person (Peters), a bad head coach (GG) and a prick (Hartley).  That said the on ice product is clearly not good enough and it can't fall on just coaching, still not going anywhere without the 1C, 1D and 1G.

[Thebrewcrew]

4 minutes ago, sak22 said:

The issues are with the coaches as well.  Lucic spoke of not getting an answer from Peters for being benched, Sarich spoke the same about Hartley and he mentions being blasted by Torts publicly as easier to deal with than Hartley giving the cold shoulder.  If your only technique for motivation is being an a-hole I have no sympathy for you when people decide not to work for you, and these aren't missed opportunities at great coaches, my money is none of them will be a head coach in the league again and it isn't because of the Flames players, it is either because they are either a horrible person (Peters), a bad head coach (GG) and a prick (Hartley).  That said the on ice product is clearly not good enough and it can't fall on just coaching, still not going anywhere without the 1C, 1D and 1G.

I really think that the Flames owners need to really reconsider their stance on what they pay for coaches. You get what you pay for. Like you said, they last 3 head coaches they've had will likely never be an NHL head coach again. That's what happens when you shop in the bargain bin.

 

There's no difference between paying a Gallant 3mill or paying 2 head coaches, one that you've fired, 1.5 each. 

[The_Tribal Chief]

So i dont usually Agree with Eric Frances to often but he did a good read on sportsnet saying this offseason is the perfect time to trade Jh as after next Season Jh has a modified ntc that he has to submit 5 teams same scenario as iginla when this team waited to late now we dont want to wait to late and get the best possible for him...

He also says in a Flat Salary cap world were likely keeping monahan cause 30 goal scorers dont come around all the time and possibly get someone in here that can work with him has aswell

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/flames-gaudreau-likely-trade-candidate-recent-playoff-stumble/

 

[jjgallow]

41 minutes ago, The_Snowbear said:

So i dont usually Agree with Eric Frances to often but he did a good read on sportsnet saying this offseason is the perfect time to trade Jh as after next Season Jh has a modified ntc that he has to submit 5 teams same scenario as iginla when this team waited to late now we dont want to wait to late and get the best possible for him...

He also says in a Flat Salary cap world were likely keeping monahan cause 30 goal scorers dont come around all the time and possibly get someone in here that can work with him has aswell

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/flames-gaudreau-likely-trade-candidate-recent-playoff-stumble/

 

 

If Francis had written that in 2018 I would have actually considered it an intelligent article.

 

Flames will get pennies on the dollar for Gaudreau now for waiting so long but nevertheless they still need to make that trade.

[jjgallow]

3 hours ago, Thebrewcrew said:

I think that ownership, GM, coach and players are all guilty here

 

First of all ownership won't shell out for a legit coach. Coaching makes a difference. Look at what Torts does in CBJ and Trotz in NYI. If an unproven coach is behind those benches, they don't have the success that they have had.

 

Then there's the musical chairs of coaches. Hartley wasn't BT's guy, so a change was expected. His first hire was Gulutzan, which was a really off the board hire, but then again his hands were tied. He probably fired Gulutzan a year too early, but he loved Peters. The Flames have had almost no continuity behind the bench, which is on the GM.

 

Then there's the players, they consistently tune out the coaches. Peters was supposed to be the "Goldy Locks and 3 bears" hire, Hartley was too mean, Gully was too nice, Peters was supposed to be just right. Ultimately, all 3 coaches weren't able to get through to the team after a year on the job. Ward did some good things, but based on the way it's trended, they would tune him out next year

 

YUP.   I'll add, it's kind of good that Burke left on his own terms.     Or so they say he did.   That's what Hazel said anyway.

 

Burke would be my main target right now had he not already removed himself.

[Thebrewcrew]

39 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

YUP.   I'll add, it's kind of good that Burke left on his own terms.     Or so they say he did.   That's what Hazel said anyway.

 

Burke would be my main target right now had he not already removed himself.

I never loved that hire, but I think it was done to bring some credibility after the Feaster era. The ROR offersheet fiasco and the circus that was the Iggy trade were black eyes for the franchise 

[ABC923]

Management needs to make some tough calls for sure. We should recognize that trading either JG or SM will make us a weaker team next year. No team is going to trade a top 3 forward for a different top 3 forward. So any trade of those assets either needs to fill a different need (like a high end defender) or the trade will be for futures.  The only way we come out ahead in the short term is if we replace the outgoing player through free agency, but after watching Hall flounder this season (plus given his age), I doubt he could truly replace the offensive production of either guy completely.

 

So we should be honest here. Our choices are to stand pat, trade JG for futures (or SM) and sign Hall to hope we improve, or trade one of JG or SM or both and accept a couple years of growth in the hopes that we improve significantly in 2-3 years time.

[Thebrewcrew]

15 minutes ago, ABC923 said:

Management needs to make some tough calls for sure. We should recognize that trading either JG or SM will make us a weaker team next year. No team is going to trade a top 3 forward for a different top 3 forward. So any trade of those assets either needs to fill a different need (like a high end defender) or the trade will be for futures.  The only way we come out ahead in the short term is if we replace the outgoing player through free agency, but after watching Hall flounder this season (plus given his age), I doubt he could truly replace the offensive production of either guy completely.

 

So we should be honest here. Our choices are to stand pat, trade JG for futures (or SM) and sign Hall to hope we improve, or trade one of JG or SM or both and accept a couple years of growth in the hopes that we improve significantly in 2-3 years time.

It would definitely be a case of hoping to take one step back in order to take two steps forward. 

 

I look at the 2011 Flyers offseason when they traded Carter and Richards. It definitely hurt in the short term, but long term it was a win

Carter was 26 at the time of the deal, coming off a 66pt season

To PHI

Voracek- was coming off a 46pt season at the age of 22

8th overall selection in the 2011 draft, this turned into Sean Couturier

68th overall selection in 2011 which turned into Nick Cousins

 

Mike Richards was 26yrs old, coming off a 66pt season

To PHI

Brayden Schenn- Schenn was a 20yr old former top 5 pick coming off of a dominant jr season

Wayne Simmonds- Simmonds was 23yrs old coming off a 30pt season

2012 2nd round pick which turned into Devin Shore

 

If you could get something similar for Gaudreau and Monahan, it may hurt short term, but long term, you're laughing. They turned 2 players into 4 key players to help the Flyers for over a decade total

[robrob74]

2 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

YUP.   I'll add, it's kind of good that Burke left on his own terms.     Or so they say he did.   That's what Hazel said anyway.

 

Burke would be my main target right now had he not already removed himself.

 

the GM I wish we could have nabbed was Lou Lamerello. I think he righted Toronto and then they hired an idiot to replace him. Then Lou fixed NYI. 
 

probably not all Lou but, I feel we need a direction and I fear BT’s direction is draft skill and go from there. Skill ya great, but I feel it’s not everything.

[Thebrewcrew]

8 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

the GM I wish we could have nabbed was Lou Lamerello. I think he righted Toronto and then they hired an idiot to replace him. Then Lou fixed NYI. 
 

probably not all Lou but, I feel we need a direction and I fear BT’s direction is draft skill and go from there. Skill ya great, but I feel it’s not everything.

I think you have to prioritize skill though. Otherwise it’s very hard to find it. Just look at free agency these days, it seems to be getting thinner and thinner every season. Draft picks are just so valuable that you need to try and maximize them. You can find guys like Hathaway as college free agents, it’s not really worth spending a pick on IMO.

 

The Flames typically drafting smaller players isn’t just exclusive to them. Now more than ever smaller players are getting more and more opportunity, due to the emphasis on speed and skill. The big kids are having a harder time keeping up. Which is why the Tom Wilson’s and Tkachuk’s are so valuable. Most kids in junior that play a game like them just can’t keep up

[robrob74]

16 minutes ago, Thebrewcrew said:

I think you have to prioritize skill though. Otherwise it’s very hard to find it. Just look at free agency these days, it seems to be getting thinner and thinner every season. Draft picks are just so valuable that you need to try and maximize them. You can find guys like Hathaway as college free agents, it’s not really worth spending a pick on IMO.

 

The Flames typically drafting smaller players isn’t just exclusive to them. Now more than ever smaller players are getting more and more opportunity, due to the emphasis on speed and skill. The big kids are having a harder time keeping up. Which is why the Tom Wilson’s and Tkachuk’s are so valuable. Most kids in junior that play a game like them just can’t keep up

 

I ok with drafting smaller players. It’s just hard when you see other teams finding grittier guys with skill. All of our recent grads have been Mangiapame, Dube, and the next is probably Phillips. With smaller guys you can hit all you want but they’re just gonna bounce off the guy with no worse for wear on the opponent. 
 

I like their will and it’s the attitude you want out of players. It’s hard when it’s coming from your smallest guys - aside from Bennett that is. 

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, ABC923 said:

Management needs to make some tough calls for sure. We should recognize that trading either JG or SM will make us a weaker team next year. No team is going to trade a top 3 forward for a different top 3 forward. So any trade of those assets either needs to fill a different need (like a high end defender) or the trade will be for futures.  The only way we come out ahead in the short term is if we replace the outgoing player through free agency, but after watching Hall flounder this season (plus given his age), I doubt he could truly replace the offensive production of either guy completely.

 

So we should be honest here. Our choices are to stand pat, trade JG for futures (or SM) and sign Hall to hope we improve, or trade one of JG or SM or both and accept a couple years of growth in the hopes that we improve significantly in 2-3 years time.

 

Gaudreau is not hoing to het you a top 3 player today.  He may get you a potential top 3 player.

Teams get impatient as do fanbases.

Interesting that Servali suggested that the team shouldn;t be trading Gaudreau but looking for the right compliment. 

I don't know if I agree, but it does make sense.

We have not ever been able to find the right player both rregular season and playoffs.

Ferland was the closest to that we had in years.

Lindy was that for regular season.

He's potentially a top 6 C that we use on the winh.

 

To me, it only makes sense to trade Gaudreau to fix problems not create more.

Trade Gaudreau and Backlund and impact the core.

Get back a top 9 C and a top 6 winger.

Impact the way the top 6 looks.

Sign Pietrangelo, 

This only happens because we are moving out 12m and taking back less than 8m.

Our D consists of Gio, Pietrangelo, Ras, Hanifin, Kylington, Valimaki, Mackey.

One approach.

I haven;t calculated exactly, but it does seem doable.