Geoff Ward, Flames 18 th coach

[travel_dude]

54 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

 

I definitely agree. I just said the same thing about Kylington. It's mind boggling. 

 

The thing about all of the keeping things the same but changing the 4th is that keeping the things the same as earlier in the year hasn't worked then, why will  it now?

 

I don't know that it does,

The only thing I can say is they played better with that top 9 in the past.

[ABC923]

And so the tenure of the Flames 18th head coach comes to an end. I wish Ward the best in his future endeavours.

[cross16]

I do feel for Ward. By all accounts he is a good man and I think he is a top quality assistant/associate coach. He deserved a lot of credit for how he righted the ship last year and he did some quality work here. I think he was either in over his head or put into a bad position (assistant to head coach on the same team hardly ever works) but i'm sure he'll be back on a bench somewhere soon. 

 

 

[travel_dude]

14 minutes ago, cross16 said:

I do feel for Ward. By all accounts he is a good man and I think he is a top quality assistant/associate coach. He deserved a lot of credit for how he righted the ship last year and he did some quality work here. I think he was either in over his head or put into a bad position (assistant to head coach on the same team hardly ever works) but i'm sure he'll be back on a bench somewhere soon. 

 

 

 

As much as fans were calling for his head, it was more a mistake to give him the role this summer after an uneven debut.

Props for getting the team to the playoffs, but it was really evident he was in over his head. 

[rickross]

Credit to Ward for coming in under difficult circumstances and trying his best. It just didn’t work out and this will likely be best for both parties. Thanks for your service Wardo. 

[jjgallow]

 

I recognise that some here took issue with Ward and I understand there were reasons,

 

We might even go for a bit of an initial winning streak with Sutter.

 

But at some point, we're going to run out of people to fire to cover for BT.   Let's hope we're close to that now.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

 

I recognise that some here took issue with Ward and I understand there were reasons,

 

We might even go for a bit of an initial winning streak with Sutter.

 

But at some point, we're going to run out of people to fire to cover for BT.   Let's hope we're close to that now.

 

At some point you may actually agree with a move or a pick or a decision.

Let's hope you are also close to that.

Never mind.

[dieselmarble]

Bye Bye....

[rickross]

Not to beat the man while he’s down but seriously ....WTF Wardo?! It’s funny because you hear a coach as the accolade of winning a Stanley Cup but that doesn’t mean that coach knows how to coach a team on how to win. Ward’s command of this team was definitely not NHL caliber , we saw that daily with this team. They had no idea how to win a hockey game, let alone how to play together, defensively and offensively.  Really have to wonder what it was he was teaching this team...like what was his vision and why was it so poorly implemented and executed? Whatever the matter the Oilers will add him this off season lol 

[robrob74]

15 minutes ago, rickross said:

Not to beat the man while he’s down but seriously ....WTF Wardo?! It’s funny because you hear a coach as the accolade of winning a Stanley Cup but that doesn’t mean that coach knows how to coach a team on how to win. Ward’s command of this team was definitely not NHL caliber , we saw that daily with this team. They had no idea how to win a hockey game, let alone how to play together, defensively and offensively.  Really have to wonder what it was he was teaching this team...like what was his vision and why was it so poorly implemented and executed? Whatever the matter the Oilers will add him this off season lol 

i think his biggest thing was changing the atmosphere after Peters left. The team was so down that they needed something fresh. I think they looked great in the 7 games they won to start, but it was good to see them happier than they were. It felt like a weight was lifted, but we still saw the bit of mistakes and they crept back into the game more as they went. Does that happen with Sutter ? Maybe it does. But I think if they can continue to play as clean in the neutral Zone then that will help win more games than not. This teams Achilles has been those giveaways as much as it has been effort. How many brainfarts does it take to lose a game? 
 

 

[travel_dude]

44 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

i think his biggest thing was changing the atmosphere after Peters left. The team was so down that they needed something fresh. I think they looked great in the 7 games they won to start, but it was good to see them happier than they were. It felt like a weight was lifted, but we still saw the bit of mistakes and they crept back into the game more as they went. Does that happen with Sutter ? Maybe it does. But I think if they can continue to play as clean in the neutral Zone then that will help win more games than not. This teams Achilles has been those giveaways as much as it has been effort. How many brainfarts does it take to lose a game? 
 

 

 

A players coach is always going to allow a team to relax after a taskmaster.

Doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.

BP started trying everything possible to change the team.

CGY was 11-12-3 under BP last season.

Almost the same as Ward this season.

 

I know it's only two games with Sutter behind the bench, but haven;t seen the wild swings in play in a game or between games.

The two games prior were a bit less consistent, so it tells me that Sutter has ironed out that little bit of inconsistency.

His focus is on possession and shot volume.

Get the puck back.

Funnel more shots to lead to 2nd and 3rd chances.

Last night all three goals were a result of possession.

One of three were 2nd or 3rd chances.

 

You don't have to have a mistake-free game, but you do need to recover from them.

 

[robrob74]

21 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

A players coach is always going to allow a team to relax after a taskmaster.

Doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.

BP started trying everything possible to change the team.

CGY was 11-12-3 under BP last season.

Almost the same as Ward this season.

 

I know it's only two games with Sutter behind the bench, but haven;t seen the wild swings in play in a game or between games.

The two games prior were a bit less consistent, so it tells me that Sutter has ironed out that little bit of inconsistency.

His focus is on possession and shot volume.

Get the puck back.

Funnel more shots to lead to 2nd and 3rd chances.

Last night all three goals were a result of possession.

One of three were 2nd or 3rd chances.

 

You don't have to have a mistake-free game, but you do need to recover from them.

 

 

 

And I think that that this is what I've been trying to describe the past few years that the team has been lacking and wondered how hockey has changed so much before my eyes that players have forgotten how to do this. A lot here had blamed it on parity. But I just feel like the Flames needed to clean up their game and get back to basics instead of trying to force things that are beer league level mistakes. 

 

Sarich would go on the radio and talk about basic fundamentals and it seems like this is really what Sutter is focussing on. Get the puck moving the other way safely, have the puck in their end and get the shots. 

[travel_dude]

46 minutes ago, robrob74 said:

 

 

And I think that that this is what I've been trying to describe the past few years that the team has been lacking and wondered how hockey has changed so much before my eyes that players have forgotten how to do this. A lot here had blamed it on parity. But I just feel like the Flames needed to clean up their game and get back to basics instead of trying to force things that are beer league level mistakes. 

 

Sarich would go on the radio and talk about basic fundamentals and it seems like this is really what Sutter is focussing on. Get the puck moving the other way safely, have the puck in their end and get the shots. 

 

I think Bieksa and Versteeg have said a lot of things that seemed obvious to us, but not to the team or coach.

It can't just be the players unable to play a certain way; they have done it but change in games.

Perhaps Ward just made choices that impacted how they played.

Make methodical plays coming out of the zone.

Slow play is king, get the perfect shot over volume.

 

[jjgallow]

 

Flames....redeeming Ward in a hurry here lol.   Not sure if he'll ever see the big leagues again but do feel a little bad for him being the scapegoat.

Is in the job description I guess.

Let's hope it's in the GM's job description too.

[travel_dude]

1 hour ago, jjgallow said:

 

Flames....redeeming Ward in a hurry here lol.   Not sure if he'll ever see the big leagues again but do feel a little bad for him being the scapegoat.

Is in the job description I guess.

Let's hope it's in the GM's job description too.

 

He would have been a great tanking coach if we had kept him.

We would assuredly be at the bottom of the North by end of season.

Many reasons why this team failed, but he was in the top 3.

[jjgallow]

2 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

He would have been a great tanking coach if we had kept him.

We would assuredly be at the bottom of the North by end of season.

Many reasons why this team failed, but he was in the top 3.

 

I always liked him.  Maybe he will be my Ortio 2.0.    Maybe I was wrong?  Don't know if we'll ever get the chance to find out 😕

 

But quite honestly I don't think there's a coach in the world who can stop what comes next.    Did you catch in the gameday thread that some are already blaming Sutter lol.   It was a heat of the moment thing of course.   But our organisation has sure wasted a lot of time blaming coaches and goalies for systemic failures.

[travel_dude]

8 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

I always liked him.  Maybe he will be my Ortio 2.0.    Maybe I was wrong?  Don't know if we'll ever get the chance to find out 😕

 

But quite honestly I don't think there's a coach in the world who can stop what comes next.    Did you catch in the gameday thread that some are already blaming Sutter lol.   It was a heat of the moment thing of course.   But our organisation has sure wasted a lot of time blaming coaches and goalies for systemic failures.

 

To be fair, Sutter has changed little from when they played poorly under Ward.

Little tweaks to improve results.

Try to wn 2-1 1-0 games is fine if your defensive systems are performing well.

The PK is doing well.

The PP not so much.

 

It's not blaming coaches as much as picking the wrong ones.

Poor choices.

Hartley went sour.

Gully never should have been.

BP may have been a good results guy, but hardly a smart choice in hindsight.

Ward in over his head, so that was just so wrong.

 

I get the idea that the team sucks.

Unless you build a team after a coach, you need the coach to find the way to use what he has.

 

[JTech780]

The effort level under Sutter significantly improved under Sutter, these loses with Ward behind the bench would be blow outs.

 

[cross16]

I really hate how this keeps being framed as such a binary argument. The coach can suck and the players be a problem too but criticize one or the other and it gets framed as blame or choosing sides. 

 

Ward was a bad coach, no question but the problems always ran deeper than the coach. This is a team that plays when it's easy and won't fight and do the little things it takes to win on a consistent basis. 

 

Sutter will get them playing better, he already has, and I have no doubt they'll win more games coming up here but I question if he can fix that mentality. 

 

 

[travel_dude]

57 minutes ago, cross16 said:

I really hate how this keeps being framed as such a binary argument. The coach can suck and the players be a problem too but criticize one or the other and it gets framed as blame or choosing sides. 

 

Ward was a bad coach, no question but the problems always ran deeper than the coach. This is a team that plays when it's easy and won't fight and do the little things it takes to win on a consistent basis. 

 

Sutter will get them playing better, he already has, and I have no doubt they'll win more games coming up here but I question if he can fix that mentality. 

 

 

 

I would say the problem run deep and BT has made bad decisions about who he brought in.

Glad Ward is gone from the standpoint that I found him to be a bad coach.

Sutter is fixing some of the problems that the team has.

But he won't be able to change the players in some cases.

 

 

The team needs an overhaul, but I don't know where you begin.

We have character guys, but they seem lost in a group that won't do what it takes.

Or give up too easily when things go south.

I'm starting to wonder who the real leaders are.

 

Gio - is he trying things his body used to be able to do and can't?

Tkachuk - battle seems to be there some games, but looks like he bails on some shifts.

Backlund - this may not be correct, but I see him bail too often.

Monahan - skating is always an issue, but he's invisible some games.

Gaudreau - I don't know.  Won't go to the dirty areas, but looks invested in games. 

Dube, Mangiapane, Ryan - rarely take a shift off, go to every area of the ice.

Lucic - I don't really know.  He looks so frustrated.  

Tanev and Hanifin - no real complaints.

Bennett - no doubt he hates his role most games or so it appears.

The others not so sure.

 

What is the problem with this group.

 

[flames-fan-in-jets-land]

1 hour ago, cross16 said:

I really hate how this keeps being framed as such a binary argument. The coach can suck and the players be a problem too but criticize one or the other and it gets framed as blame or choosing sides. 

 

Ward was a bad coach, no question but the problems always ran deeper than the coach. This is a team that plays when it's easy and won't fight and do the little things it takes to win on a consistent basis. 

 

Sutter will get them playing better, he already has, and I have no doubt they'll win more games coming up here but I question if he can fix that mentality. 

 

 

Of all the parts that have been seen as part of the problem ,goaltending, defence, coach, GM, 3-4th lines, core players, really only the GM and core players havent been addressed. Whether or not the changes made were/are the right ones the results aren't what anyone hoped for, so far. This leaves the GM and core players, do you switch out both or one or the other? Changing a GM now wont see results until at least next season, changing the core comes down to hoping you change the right pieces.  

19 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

 

 

What is the problem with this group.

 

Thats what needs to be figured out before any major changes can happen and the chances of getting the best value comes at the TDL IMHO so its not like theres loads of time to figure it out.

[travel_dude]

32 minutes ago, flames-fan-in-jets-land said:

Of all the parts that have been seen as part of the problem ,goaltending, defence, coach, GM, 3-4th lines, core players, really only the GM and core players havent been addressed. Whether or not the changes made were/are the right ones the results aren't what anyone hoped for, so far. This leaves the GM and core players, do you switch out both or one or the other? Changing a GM now wont see results until at least next season, changing the core comes down to hoping you change the right pieces.  

Thats what needs to be figured out before any major changes can happen and the chances of getting the best value comes at the TDL IMHO so its not like theres loads of time to figure it out.

 

I disagree on when the best value is there.

For an again D-man with retained salary, maybe.

Or a pending UFA contract.

 

As an example, ARI would be luck to get a 1st for Garland at TDL.

He's not even in the same ballpark as Gaudreau.

This is probably the worst year to sell of players at TDL.

Teams with available cap are few and far between.

Those that have it are not likely contenders.

And that doesn't even take into account the expansion draft implications.

In the summer you can go above cap by 10%, so the big deals and wide open market is there.

And teams will lose a good (or marginal) player.

 

Philly might be motivated to make a deal for Gaudreau right now.

But it would have to be dollar in dollar out.

 

Evaluation started at the start of the season on players.

Ward kind of messed it up by being such a poor coach.

[sak22]

7 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

As an example, ARI would be luck to get a 1st for Garland at TDL.

He's not even in the same ballpark as Gaudreau.

This is probably the worst year to sell of players at TDL.

Teams with available cap are few and far between.

Those that have it are not likely contenders.

And that doesn't even take into account the expansion draft implications.

In the summer you can go above cap by 10%, so the big deals and wide open market is there.

And teams will lose a good (or marginal) player.

 

Whats easier for most teams to add 750K or 6.7M?  Since more teams can join the bidding that helps drive the price up.  Sure not comparable players, but Garland prices nobody out and gives at least 2 more years of control, add in the RHS component.  Gaudreau is harder to maneuver has only one more season with a limited NTC.  I wouldn't go a 1st for Garland, especially from a Flames perspective, but he wouldn't be the worst player to ever go for a 1st

[travel_dude]

3 minutes ago, sak22 said:

Whats easier for most teams to add 750K or 6.7M?  Since more teams can join the bidding that helps drive the price up.  Sure not comparable players, but Garland prices nobody out and gives at least 2 more years of control, add in the RHS component.  Gaudreau is harder to maneuver has only one more season with a limited NTC.  I wouldn't go a 1st for Garland, especially from a Flames perspective, but he wouldn't be the worst player to ever go for a 1st

 

I don't follow.

You said the TDL was the looming deadline for this team to figure it out.

And I pointed out that the TDL this year is difficult for any team to move players.

We have Dube and Valimaki that fit the bidding war price.

I would argue they are two you don't think about trading.

The rest are off-season changes.

 

[sak22]

2 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

I don't follow.

You said the TDL was the looming deadline for this team to figure it out.

And I pointed out that the TDL this year is difficult for any team to move players.

We have Dube and Valimaki that fit the bidding war price.

I would argue they are two you don't think about trading.

The rest are off-season changes.

 

I was going on the notion that you said ARI couldn't get a first for Garland, I'm suggesting its easier for ARI to drive up the return on Garland than it is for the Flames to drive up anything for Gaudreau, or Monahan at the TDL, I don't think we do anything major at the TDL.