Goaltending

[cross16]

What the Flames have is an opportunity. To finally develop quality goaltenders, and acquire elite prospects. Finally, they don't have all their positions tied up in brutal contracts they can't get out of. I am bewildered by the perception that they have a problem. It's the first time, in years, that they don't.

The plan right now, should be to see what we have in Ortio. Period. A month ago, most everyone on this thread was sure that Ortio was Europe-bound. All of a sudden, Hartley was forced to do something reasonable and actually play him. Now, we're talking backup.

What will we be talking about a month from now, or another 10 games in? You may feel that your opinion won't change, and that's fine. Just understand that the opinion on here IS changing, significantly, and that neither you or I speak for everyone else.

On being responsible:

Signing a 28 year old mediocre goalie in the summer who's save percentage has declined year over year is Absolutely a short term fix. And in my mind, the least responsible thing we could do. When this team peaks and makes a run for the cup, Mason will be like Hiller is now. But worse. Hiller actually Was elite, at one time.

Mason will cost us upwards of $5 million, will want a long term contract, and we will take a huge cap hit for a declining product that Has Proven to get a top NHL team Not into the playoffs, consistently, in his prime.

Steve Mason is not a free agent. He is under contract for 1 more year at 4.1 with Philly. The idea was to trade for him, but I would not give up a lot, so that he can maybe form a tandem with Ortio for a season and gives the flames a good 1-2 punch but without any long term commitment to anything. Acquiring Mason is part of the plan to see what they have in Ortio but till have someone who can give them league avg or better goaltending if Ortio can't get the job done. I am not interested to seeing this team have the worst goaltending in the league for another season so you need more than just Ortio s an option for next season.

Ortio going to Europe is still an option I think the flames have to fear. All Ortio has done is early himself another opportunity but is going to be a small money deal. If a team coming calling from back home with an offer of a few million a year does he stay? Not many people wanted Ortio sent to Europe, we just recognize it is a fear you have to be cautious of IMO.

[MAC331]

Ortio has played well the last few games. But all he has done has earned himself a contract and a chance to win the back up job.

We still need a quality starting goalie next year and potentially for the foreseeable future.

I don't know that is even fair to say what you have. Ortio's recent play has brought him back into the conversation, should he get the required games in to remain under control he is an option.

[tmac70]

Not sure what the love affair with Ortio is. He is at best a low level backup, period. He can't cover the top of the net and unless our d coverage is spectacular at lane coverage or blocking shots to prevent high shots Ortio is below average. If we are in a pinch for a back up I sign him to the lowest contract possible on a 2 way contract.

 

Currently we have no goalies on the big team that are any where good enough to be a starter or backup. FA is our only change. The scary part is we are now going to have to offer longer term and contract value to acquire. All we need is average goal tending like last year and we would be in a battle for a playoff spot.

[phoenix66]

I gotta say I am in 100% agreement with JJ. I love a good debate , but this whole " we have no NHL Caliber Goaltender " argument at times goes off the rails.

You can count on one hand, the number of times a "elite nhl starter" has been acquired and provided any significant fortunes to his new club. Patrick Roy is one,  you can argue Roberto Luongo, also Dominic Hasek.. we're talking hall of fame quality tenders there.

too many times to count, teams have gotten presents in the form of ones that were never given the opportunity  due to depth on their old teams, and BECAME starters (Eg- Kipper, Ben Bishop, Bobrovsky, etc..etc..etc)

Other teams are goalie factories, why?  because they develop them and when one is pushed out , they toss another in the system (Anaheim, San Jose, etc etc)

 

 Unless you are that one piece away from a cup run, to overpay on some other team's castoffs, it is throwing money away .. and even then its a gamble (ask the Blues how that worked out !)

 

Brian Mason has lost his job on 2 TEAMS now, personally i don't think he's any better than Ramo. I would not complain ONE bit , if we resigned Ramo to a 2 year deal , even a 3.. same with Ortio and let our kids develop. i said before you can toss the 1st 20 games out the window, call it what you will, 3 goalie system effects, bad coaching , injuries, etc.. the entire team sucked.. not just the goalies.. but after that Ramo was our starter and gave us a chance to win sometimes when we didn't deserve to.. that's an NHL starter. None of the goalies you have listed would have made a difference

We have done the Trade for a Starter plan in the past .. Donnie Edwards, Roman Turek, and im sure a few others.. who won us a cup ?..MIKE VERNON.. a product of our own system..who else took us to a final?  Kipper.. a forgotten piece from another system who never got a chance before

 

IF we  are going to target a new starter.. it should come from the backup pile i mentioned above-- Antti Ranta , Kincaid, .. players like that who don't get , or wont get a true chance to elevate to a starter position until someone retires. Our problem is, and always has been , we ruin goaltenders. or we give up on them before they're ready. Curtis M has shown himself to be a solid Backup in the league after we ran him out of town, Trevor Kidd was rushed and mishandled, we haven't had a true "backup " situation since Reggie Lemelin was here. Only one goalie has proven capable of backing up one that gets all the starts and was at all effective (Mclennan)

 

The point of the rant, is we tend to fall in love with the sexy names, and forgot what made them that in the first place and copy the formula, instead of trying to steal it from someone else.. after Ortio our next one from the system is 2-3 years away - 2 at least.. so , sign Ortio.. and either go forward with Ramo while we fix and mature the rest our team, or add an NHL proven Player(again , one that hasn't been allowed to be a starter yet or at worst a 1B that has a 1A ), and take the chance that hes starter material.. either one I'm good with. but we need to stop thinking another team's trash is our saviour.. or pay thru the nose for a player that made his name elsewhere, cuz theres no guarantee they will have the same success here (see Khabibulin, Niemi, osgood..etc etc)

[travel_dude]

It's funny how this thread has turned into a pro-Ortio / anti-Ortio thread.  He's an option for staring games the rest of a lost season.  He could play enough for the Flames to offer him a qualifying offer if they want to.  He has played well enough recently to justify starting games now.  That's all there really is.

 

We need a starter to come in and provide league average or better numbers next season.  The backup will be needed for at least 20 games to do the same.  There are only so many that will be available, either by trade, by OS, or by FA.  Trying to turn a career backup goalie into a starter is risky.  I doubt BT will take that risk.  If anything, he will likely want to get a guy like Bishop or Andersen.  Bishop has years ahead of him and could be great here.  Andersen is young enough to have long-term potential.

 

Having that starter, we have the luxury of using Ortio as a backup and taking our time with Gillies.  Should one of them become redundant, then we have a decent trade piece.

[phoenix66]

Not sure what the love affair with Ortio is. He is at best a low level backup, period. He can't cover the top of the net and unless our d coverage is spectacular at lane coverage or blocking shots to prevent high shots Ortio is below average. If we are in a pinch for a back up I sign him to the lowest contract possible on a 2 way contract.

 

Currently we have no goalies on the big team that are any where good enough to be a starter or backup. FA is our only change. The scary part is we are now going to have to offer longer term and contract value to acquire. All we need is average goal tending like last year and we would be in a battle for a playoff spot.

 

know who else does this ?  goes down all the time, if you can just lift the puck or pick a top corner you will score just about every time?  Jonathan Quick

[AlbertaBoy12]

I honestly wouldnt be that suprised if our goalies next year were ramo and ortio, if they can play consistently as ramo was doing before the injury and ortio has been doing we will have league average goaltending. 

[JTech780]

It's funny how this thread has turned into a pro-Ortio / anti-Ortio thread. He's an option for staring games the rest of a lost season. He could play enough for the Flames to offer him a qualifying offer if they want to. He has played well enough recently to justify starting games now. That's all there really is.

We need a starter to come in and provide league average or better numbers next season. The backup will be needed for at least 20 games to do the same. There are only so many that will be available, either by trade, by OS, or by FA. Trying to turn a career backup goalie into a starter is risky. I doubt BT will take that risk. If anything, he will likely want to get a guy like Bishop or Andersen. Bishop has years ahead of him and could be great here. Andersen is young enough to have long-term potential.

Having that starter, we have the luxury of using Ortio as a backup and taking our time with Gillies. Should one of them become redundant, then we have a decent trade piece.

Yes, I don't get this idea that if you want to bring in a legit starter for next year that you anti Ortio. I classify myself as being pro playoffs. Ortio may come into next year and take us to the playoffs, but I would consider that an extreme long shot.

Before Chicago had Niemi and Crawford as cup winning goalies they had Huet and Khabibulin to get them into the playoffs so that their young core can learn what it takes to win and ve successful in the playoffs.

If you are OK with another year like this year, fine that is your prerogative. I would rather not waste another year of this teams prime years with sub par goaltending.

Get a number 1 till Ortio, Gillies or McDonald show that they can be trusted with the starters job.

I honestly wouldnt be that suprised if our goalies next year were ramo and ortio, if they can play consistently as ramo was doing before the injury and ortio has been doing we will have league average goaltending.

I have zero interest in bringing Ramo back. I don't think we are a playoff team with Ramo, I want to see a clear upgrade as our starter going into next year.

[phoenix66]

Yes, I don't get this idea that if you want to bring in a legit starter for next year that you anti Ortio. I classify myself as being pro playoffs. Ortio may come into next year and take us to the playoffs, but I would consider that an extreme long shot.

Before Chicago had Niemi and Crawford as cup winning goalies they had Huet and Khabibulin to get them into the playoffs so that their young core can learn what it takes to win and ve successful in the playoffs.

If you are OK with another year like this year, fine that is your prerogative. I would rather not waste another year of this teams prime years with sub par goaltending.

Get a number 1 till Ortio, Gillies or McDonald show that they can be trusted with the starters job.

I have zero interest in bringing Ramo back. I don't think we are a playoff team with Ramo, I want to see a clear upgrade as our starter going into next year.

 

yes , Khabibulin had a good run.. cant Count Huet cuz he only played 4 playoff games and wasn't very good.. neither was the rest of his team .. and in the case of Khabi, see my above post , they had a team ready to make a cup push , after many years, and went and got the piece .. 

I dont think this is a pro / or Anti Ortio pattern.. dont think anybody here is saying make Ortio the starter.. what we are saying is carry on with the system.. a quick fix wont do it

and news flash, last year was the anomaly.. not this year .. we likely are NOT a playoff team next year either.. it was a perfect storm last year that put us there.. not just goaltending .. a Norris year from Gio, a career year from Hudler, Hiller was actually Good

 

your back up should be the one who pushes the starter.. and cheap.. Ortio needs to be developed at the NHL level now.. as a back up .. its the next step in his progression.. as for the starter, again ,, see above

 

Also , in the case of Bishop.. first , you will pay through the nose to acquire him.. second, dude makes 6.5 now.. if Tampa makes any kind of run this year at all, hes getting a raise.. so you're looking 8 or more to resign him..likely to a long term deal.. 3rd.. what guarantees do we have that he will be a difference maker here?   are the proponents of this , willing to give up picks, prospects, and all.. then commit to what will be a 5-7 year deal.. on possible the next Roman Turek? before he even plays a game for us?  or.. willing to give up a haul only to lose him to free agency the next year? and meanwhile erode our system development again  because we have the locked in #1 who cant be unseated?

[MAC331]

Yes, I don't get this idea that if you want to bring in a legit starter for next year that you anti Ortio. I classify myself as being pro playoffs. Ortio may come into next year and take us to the playoffs, but I would consider that an extreme long shot.

Before Chicago had Niemi and Crawford as cup winning goalies they had Huet and Khabibulin to get them into the playoffs so that their young core can learn what it takes to win and ve successful in the playoffs.

If you are OK with another year like this year, fine that is your prerogative. I would rather not waste another year of this teams prime years with sub par goaltending.

Get a number 1 till Ortio, Gillies or McDonald show that they can be trusted with the starters job.

I have zero interest in bringing Ramo back. I don't think we are a playoff team with Ramo, I want to see a clear upgrade as our starter going into next year.

How do you get Ortio to that "trusted" position if you only give him a handful of games ? Every available goalie likely comes with question marks this offseason. The reality is 2016/17 is likely to be another experimental season for goalie tryouts.

[cross16]

I agree with most that this is not a pro or anti Ortio debate. The consensus here is that Ortio has been solid and deserves to get more of a loo and a chance to compete. However. Irregardless of that is the flames still need another goalie and the NHL level never year alongside Ortio. As Jtech said if you want to had Ortio the starting job find that is your opinion but just because people want to see another option brought in does not mean everyone wants Ortio out. I want someone to come in and compete with Ortio next year so that the flames can actually support their young team instead of goaltending hanging them out to dry. A young team is going to make mistakes and I think it's unfair to them team when just about all of them wind up in your net and for most of the season that's what's has happened. It's not n,u about playoff or no playoffs it's also about helping a young team grow and IMO you don't do that without supporting them with average or better goalie play.

I also disagree that this team can't make the playoffs next year. I estimate the flames lost at least 10 pts in the standings this season just due to bad goaltending. You give them 10 more points and they were right there and probably keep Hudler at the deadline.

Don't leave a young building team out to dry, you need to give them options in net and that can and should include Ortio. It just shouldn't include only him. I'm also out on Ramo too. Not a fan of banking on a guy coming off ACL surgery who was only average at best anyway.

[JTech780]

yes , Khabibulin had a good run.. cant Count Huet cuz he only played 4 playoff games and wasn't very good.. neither was the rest of his team .. and in the case of Khabi, see my above post , they had a team ready to make a cup push , after many years, and went and got the piece .. 

I dont think this is a pro / or Anti Ortio pattern.. dont think anybody here is saying make Ortio the starter.. what we are saying is carry on with the system.. a quick fix wont do it

and news flash, last year was the anomaly.. not this year .. we likely are NOT a playoff team next year either.. it was a perfect storm last year that put us there.. not just goaltending .. a Norris year from Gio, a career year from Hudler, Hiller was actually Good

 

your back up should be the one who pushes the starter.. and cheap.. Ortio needs to be developed at the NHL level now.. as a back up .. its the next step in his progression.. as for the starter, again ,, see above

 

Also , in the case of Bishop.. first , you will pay through the nose to acquire him.. second, dude makes 6.5 now.. if Tampa makes any kind of run this year at all, hes getting a raise.. so you're looking 8 or more to resign him..likely to a long term deal.. 3rd.. what guarantees do we have that he will be a difference maker here?   are the proponents of this , willing to give up picks, prospects, and all.. then commit to what will be a 5-7 year deal.. on possible the next Roman Turek? before he even plays a game for us?  or.. willing to give up a haul only to lose him to free agency the next year? and meanwhile erode our system development again  because we have the locked in #1 who cant be unseated?

 

You can absolutely count Huet he played 41 games for Chicago that year and was big part of them getting into the playoffs.

 

Either way we look at it we need a starter next year, are we supposed to just bring in some low level borderline starter next year because we aren't ready to be a cup contender. Or do you bring a legit starter next year and take a run at the playoffs.

 

Our core is set and now it is just about surrounding that core with the right pieces to make the playoffs and then be cup contenders, part of that is bringing in a goalie.

[JTech780]

How do you get Ortio to that "trusted" position if you only give him a handful of games ? Every available goalie likely comes with question marks this offseason. The reality is 2016/17 is likely to be another experimental season for goalie tryouts.

 

I am fine with bringing in Ortio in to battle for the back up job, but a handful of good games at the end of the year doesn't earn him the starters job for next year. If he wants to be a number 1 he has to earn it and beat a true number 1. Ortio hasn't shown that he can play consistently at any level throughout his career, and I know some people will say that he has been moved around a lot and that is why he hasn't found consistently, but at what point do we put it on the player, at some point he just has to rise above it ans show that he wants it and that he is ready and part of that is to rise above adversity.

[Flyerfan52]

Was hoping for Flyerfans opinion on this too, but in wondering if there is appetite in Philly to move Steve Mason? Neurvirth seems to have taken the net and 4.1mill for a 1B type goalie is a lot but then again Hextall has gotten the flyers out of cap jail. Can't imagine he would be overly expensive to acquire and I would be quite intrigued and happy with a Mason - Ortio combo for next season.

Mason isn't good enough for then he just walks as a UFA. If he is good then you try and re sign him.

Neurvirth was the hot hand recently but now it seems to be Mason. Mason rediscovered his form since coming over from the BJs & is well loved in Philly. Doubtful he's traded as he has been the 1st goalie in ages to play that well for the Flyers.

Neurvirth is a fine backup @ 1.625 so the combo makes financial sense as the goalie pipeline looks pretty empty.

 

I could see Neurvirth moved for the right offer & replaced by someone like Montoya but I'd rather the Flames go for Montoya as backup as he'll probably come in a bit cheaper but I see him as more reliable.

[phoenix66]

You can absolutely count Huet he played 41 games for Chicago that year and was big part of them getting into the playoffs.

 

Either way we look at it we need a starter next year, are we supposed to just bring in some low level borderline starter next year because we aren't ready to be a cup contender. Or do you bring a legit starter next year and take a run at the playoffs.

 

Our core is set and now it is just about surrounding that core with the right pieces to make the playoffs and then be cup contenders, part of that is bringing in a goalie.

again .. a legit starter for who?  you have no guarantees that someone you can pry away from another team that even remotely has that tag.. wont be a total bust here.. the smart money , if you choose to the Anti ramo route.. is a current backup ready for the next step of his own development.. it  was actually one of the few things the Oilers did right. Its cheaper and less destructive if it blows up in your face

so basically we already had our Huet.. his name was Hiller.  we are about 2-3 years away from our "prime years" we dont even have the next piece of our core yet , we will hopefully draft him this year 

 

we better not be in our prime years right now.. we are about to lock up Johnny and Monny for 6-8yrs.. Hamilton is long term.. Bennet is still entry and whats his name hasn't even been drafted yet . 

[jjgallow]

 

We need a starter to come in and provide league average or better numbers next season.  

 

Wow

 

It has always fascinated me how some of us plan ahead for average.   How, if we try really hard and make all the right compromises, we too can have a a league average team that might make the playoffs sometime, and get eliminated in the first, or second round.

 

Is there anyone here who wants the Flames to win the cup?   We won't get to the cup by blowing our Cap space to launch ourselves into mediocrity for the next 5 years.

 

[JTech780]

again .. a legit starter for who? you have no guarantees that someone you can pry away from another team that even remotely has that tag.. wont be a total bust here.. the smart money , if you choose to the Anti ramo route.. is a current backup ready for the next step of his own development.. it was actually one of the few things the Oilers did right. Its cheaper and less destructive if it blows up in your face

so basically we already had our Huet.. his name was Hiller. we are about 2-3 years away from our "prime years" we dont even have the next piece of our core yet , we will hopefully draft him this year

we better not be in our prime years right now.. we are about to lock up Johnny and Monny for 6-8yrs.. Hamilton is long term.. Bennet is still entry and whats his name hasn't even been drafted yet .

In what universe did the Oilers get their goaltending right. They are onto year 10 of their rebuild and have yet found a number 1.

[phoenix66]

In what universe did the Oilers get their goaltending right. They are onto year 10 of their rebuild and have yet found a number 1.

Talbot has emerged as a quality #1-- they have #2 waiting (LB) albeit at our expense.. goaltending is not their problem this year 

Talbot carries the load and hey, maybe LB unseats him.. but they got Talbot on a relatively cheap contract because he was trapped behind king Henry. yes they gave up picks.. but he had shown he was possibly ready to become a starter . and now he has 

[jjgallow]

We have one thing in common with the Oilers....we both have big gaps on defence (obviously more up North), and blame our goaltenders for it as long as our defencemen score points  (because that's what defencemen are for, right?)

[travel_dude]

Wow

 

It has always fascinated me how some of us plan ahead for average.   How, if we try really hard and make all the right compromises, we too can have a a league average team that might make the playoffs sometime, and get eliminated in the first, or second round.

 

Is there anyone here who wants the Flames to win the cup?   We won't get to the cup by blowing our Cap space to launch ourselves into mediocrity for the next 5 years.

 

 

Is it better to make a starter out of a goalie that was average this season?  Good recent stretch after a horrid earlier stretch?

 

We haven't had league average goaltending in years, so ya, that is at least the goal moving forward.  League average this year would have meant playoffs.  Better than league average last year could have meant Conference Finals.  Bishop is better than league average, so that's not selling short.

[phoenix66]

Is it better to make a starter out of a goalie that was average this season?  Good recent stretch after a horrid earlier stretch?

 

We haven't had league average goaltending in years, so ya, that is at least the goal moving forward.  League average this year would have meant playoffs.  Better than league average last year could have meant Conference Finals.  Bishop is better than league average, so that's not selling short.

 

i may have missed it ..but who was pushing for Ortio to be a starter next year ?  i dont think anybody did. and , hey , Ortio has now had 2..just 2.. runs of games. and in both , did VERY well.. this just says hes ready for the next step.. and that is regular play as an NHL backup..nothing more.. its up to him and the coaches to see if he gets higher than that . 

 

again on Bishop...Ottawa didnt think he was better than what they had.. what are you willing to give up to get him? because it will cost us. probably at MINIMUM both our second rounders this year ...  then there the matter of his contract .. do you really think hes signing for a short term deal?.. no  hes gonna want a raise from his 6.5 and likely a 5-6 year deal.. are you wiling to a) provide all that before he even plays a game for us.. or risk taking him with his one year left, having given up that return already.. only to have him Bust out , and have wasted the picks.. or be great and drive his price up even more?

 

and are you really pinning this whole season on just goaltending ?? our D has been horrible, Hamilton needed the whole year to get accustomed to our system (which is Normal , JBO did the same thing ).. Powerplay atrocious, we surprised teams last year .. this year there was no surprise. if anything were it not for the tending we got after the 1st 20 games we would have passed Toronto a long time ago

[jjgallow]

We haven't had league average goaltending in years, so ya, that is at least the goal moving forward.

 

Yeesh.....

 

yeah that's a fundamental issue which is going to separate us on a lot of topics.   Your whole team is built out from the net.  Not sure why we would entertain anything that doesn't have stanley cup winning potential down the road.

[MAC331]

Yeesh.....

 

yeah that's a fundamental issue which is going to separate us on a lot of topics.   Your whole team is built out from the net.  Not sure why we would entertain anything that doesn't have stanley cup winning potential down the road.

When they brought in Hiller the plan was to provide the team some veteran stability for a rebuild. Ramo was in the system and on schedule to at least get some consideration and playing time for evaluation. Hiller didn't fill the bill and Ramo has delivered flashes of potential.

I see the situation as wide open and I would expect BT to be placing a lot of emphasis and scrutiny on who to bring in next. I see no reason not to keep Ortio in the fold to compete for work.

[travel_dude]

Yeesh.....

 

yeah that's a fundamental issue which is going to separate us on a lot of topics.   Your whole team is built out from the net.  Not sure why we would entertain anything that doesn't have stanley cup winning potential down the road.

 

Is Ortio that guy?  You keep talking about him as a backup next season until he takes the next step to being a starter.  But I don't see the starter you have in mind.  Rather, you would prefer to make this Ortio against the world.  Or your idea is the right one, even though I fail to find your solution in any posts.

 

To be blunt - what is your solution to the starter next season and perhaps longer?

[phoenix66]

Is Ortio that guy?  You keep talking about him as a backup next season until he takes the next step to being a starter.  But I don't see the starter you have in mind.  Rather, you would prefer to make this Ortio against the world.  Or your idea is the right one, even though I fail to find your solution in any posts.

 

To be blunt - what is your solution to the starter next season and perhaps longer?

not saying this to be cute, or funny.. just a natural gut feeling.. and may totally change once we see what the product looks like.. but seriously do not be surprised if your starter next year is Niklas backstrom.. if not him, then its gonna be Ramo again 

not trying to start a debate on it.. just sayin' so as to have a record to be able to say I called it