Oilers

[DirtyDeeds]

not 100% sure but i think name calling is against forum rules.

not that i would expect any less

Name calling? Not at all.

The village idiot was long considered an acceptable social role, a unique individual who was dependent yet contributed to the social fabric of his community.[4] As early as Byzantine times, the "village idiot" was treated as an acceptable form of deranged individual that fulfilled the conception of normative social order.

It has also been applied as an epithet for an unrealistically optimistic or naive individual.

If I wanted to call you names, well I have lots of name calling stuff to choose from.

[ConnorFutureGM]

Trust me you don't have to guess, but you won't find me disagreeing.

All those picks and great young players that will take you to the "Elite Contending for a Cup Status. Pfft... Oh you moved up 1 slot this year.

A lotto pick is a lotto pick is a lotto pick. Your team still sucks. As a fan it must really suck to have to think next year.. then think next year, next year... then again think next year the next year after that.

A lotto pick is a lotto pick the same way that missing the playoffs is missing the playoffs. The Flames have missed the playoffs the last two season and don't be surprised when they make it a third.

Islanders West and next year you will be saying the same damn thing. Foreseeable Future Contending?? Please...

You have no D. Sorry you have a D but it seems to be just barely above AHL grade when healthy.

- The Flames defence core doesn't look better than the Oilers to me. The Flames play a lot tighter of a game with a more vetern forward core who doesn't make the same mistakes as young forwards do.

Your starter goaltender is aging, 40 isn't he?

I'm sorry he is only 39, I was looking at his Standings for GAA. Silly me....lolol "Silly me"? coughgrapecough

and you have an average backup.

62nd in league. Lets see 30 teams 2 goalies per team and he ranks 62nd....

In GAA? That's a team stat, do you understand how that's a team stat?

That combo will get you to the promised land quick.

Where is this Stanley Cup Contending Goaltender going to come from? Better yet who is it?

How drunk are you on Kirprusoff? Do you sneak into is hockey bag to smell his towel? Is Howard a "Stanley Cup goalie? Was Niemi a "Stanley Cup" goalie? Was Giguere?

So here is the question and I am serious here. Have you really improved? or is Columbus just that much worse this year? have you looked at your road record? I guess not.

The Oilers are only behind one goal on the Flames in goal differential, the Oilers have the 4th ranked power play in the league and the 13th ranekd penalty kill.

Come back and talk when you are at least contending for a playoff spot, instead of one team away from the bottom of the league. Again

Oh and your question..

We are working on it but we can't worry about being elite atm. We are kinda busy with this playoff thing, so for us right now it is baby steps, not huge Leaps of Faith like you guys.

Ha ha ha. You have no idea how the Flames will become contenders.

Do you know what delusional means? Of course you do, right beside the word there's a picture of you in the dictionary.

Lets look at each team's core

Calgary

Iginla - He is currently on pace for 31 goals and he is 34. His play has definitely declined and will continue to decline with his age.

Kiprusoff - All hail Kiprusoff!...? Yeah he's playing good this year, but he doesn't at all play like that consistently. Kiprusoff's save % was .906 last year which is the same as Dubnyk's this year and worse than Kahbibulin's this year. Maybe last year was an anomaly. NOPE, in the 2007-08 season he had the same save % and in 2008-09 it was even worse at .903. Kiprusoff is at best, a streaky goalie like a bunch of the other goalies in the leauge. He's also 35 years old.

Bouwmeester - He's on pace to crack 30 points for the 1st time as a Flamer. Is that good production from the 5th highest paid defenceman in the leauge? Not to me but Flamers might have different expectations. Age 28.

Giordano - What's so great about this guy? Is it a big feat to be a defenceman and get more points than Bouwmeester in Calgary? The Oilers Whitney had more points than Bouwmeester last season only playing 35 games. Age 28.

Who else has the honor of being in the Flames core? Cammalleri? Tanguay? Jokinen? Glencorss? All of these players are either in or passed their prime like the rest of the Flames core which is STRUGGLING to make the playoffs.

Edmonton

Hall - He only has 2 less goals in 11 less games than Iginla. Age is 20.

RNH - Yeah, he's injured. He also surpassed everyones expectations. He is and will be an elite centre for years to come in the NHL. When's the last time the Flames had an elite centre?

Eberle - He's over a PPG player, on pace for 37 goals and 82 points. He's 21.

These players show that the Oilers will have scoring for years to come. Now lets look at what you call an AHL defence.

Whitney - I'll admit that he does not have the same form he did at the beginning of last season. The jury is still out if he can gain it back. Even with his current play he is a top 4 defenceman and if he can regain his form he is a top pairing defenceman. Age 29.

Gilbert - He's a two-way defenceman but he isn't putting up as much points as he was before. Still top 4 on a good team because of his right hand shot. Age 29.

Smid - Leads the Oilers in blocked shots and hits. Is a defensive defenceman who can skate. Top 4 dman. Age 26.

Petry - Did you notice this player during the game. He has potential to be a top pairing defenceman. He can skate, he can hit, he has a good pass, plays the positioning well defensively and has good hockey IQ. He's top 4 on a non playoff team but he's getting better game by game. He will be a solid top 4 by the end of this season and hopefully will continue to progress. Age 24.

The other Oilers defencemen: Sutton, Potter, Peckham and Barker are either 3rd pairing or 7th defencemen.

We can also take a look at the prospects. Calgary has one good prospect and a couple decent ones. The Oilers have a huge pool of prosects that are being developed.

You and I both know why Calgary is doing better than the Oilers this season. It's not because they have more talent (because they don't), it's because the Flames are a more vetern team. The core of the Flames is either in or past their prime. They've been in the league for a while and they know what it taks to win. The Flames can win the close games and this can be seen by the Flames having a 13 point lead on the Oilers but only a 1 goal lead in goal differential.

That's ok to have a veteran team if they are going to challenge for the cup but if they're scambling to make the playoffs that's a different story. The Flames are withering away. The push to be competitive every season has delayed a collapse of the team that is headed for a huge implosion. Look at the 2 main players: Iginla, Kiprusoff and Bouwmeester. All of those players have stayed healthy. If one of those players ends up going down for the majority of a season the Flames will be in a world of hurt. Even if they don't get hurt, if Iginla keeps regressing and Kiprusoff turns into 2010-11 Kipper, the Flames will not be able to keep their head above water like they've barely been doing for the last 3 seasons.

[Flame111]

The Flames played terrible except for Kipper. The best way to sum up the game is they took it for granted. The Oilers have shown a pattern all season that if any team takes them for granted and doesn't give a solid effort against them, the Oilers will beat them.

The Oilers have beat the Preds, the Pens, the Rangers, the Canucks, the Capitals, the Blues, Blackhawks, (they blew the Hawks out 9-2) etc. They are an extremely unbalanced team but other teams can not take them for granted, if given a chance their offense can win a game against a team that mails it in. It is like plugging a hole on a dam, once the dam breaks their offense, which is skilled, can overwhelm the other team, any other team.

We've seen it before this season and this was the Flames worst game of the season. The result should surprise no one. Kipper as usual kept them in it in the first period. He gave them a chance to rebound in the second, score should have been 5-1 after the first. The team still didn't show up in the 2nd, unprepared to play and they could not contain the Oilers in their usual tight checking style style. Game over.

The sad part is the Flames know exactly how to beat the Oilers and have illustrated it over several years. They have to skate hard, check and take open ice away from the Oilers. They did none of these things last night.

________________

Connor, you really have to chill out on the Cup Contender talk. You appear to have no idea how difficult it will be to earn that title. The Oilers will get yet another top lottery pick this year but it doesn't matter. The Oilers are terribly unbalanced at the current moment. They are also on a time line.

G and D are no where to be found. The biggest risk to the Oilers rebuild is these areas which must be addressed prior to the start of next season. If the D is not fortified significantly the Oilers will struggle to join just the bubble club, next year even with the elite forward ranks.

Once those super cheap RFA contracts expire and the Tambs starts facing the challenges of managing the Cap long term and balancing the team going forward if he doesn't do it right he can flip the car on the rebuild road and you can join other train wrecks in the ditch like the Islanders and Jackets.

For the Oilers to become elite a lot of very careful and prudent management needs to occur in areas the Oilers management has yet to show competency in. Value contracts like the Flames have gotten on some players, prudent long term Cap management, UFA shopping, tough balanced trades that need to be made and mining deep quality draft picks into NHL players.

Personally, I give Tambs to the end of this off-season to see if he is capable of making the moves he needs to for high quality D. God forbid, but he may have to part with one of the holy three to do it. Not RNH though, RNH is the true elite player and I can't wait to see what his contract is going to cost when he steps up to get it.

There are several example of players who leave, Parise looks like he is walking to UFA, Jbo did it to Florida and woe to the Oilers if their young stars refuse to resign 5-7 years out from here… You highly touting "Cup Contending" team could disappear right there like a puff of smoke.

Many, many dials to be turned beyond auto-pick of a top 5 player that a 12 year old could do and the rebuilds that have been successful show that.

[UnrefinedCrude]

Many, many dials to be turned beyond auto-pick of a top 5 player that a 12 year old could do and the rebuilds that have been successful show that.

c'mon Flame you're better than that.

[DirtyDeeds]

Do you know what delusional means? Of course you do, right beside the word there's a picture of you in the dictionary.

That is not my picture self professed "Village Idiot" it happenns to be a mirror. That the best you can do?

Lets look at each team's core

Lololol Your team is going to be cup contenders because you want to compare the Flames to the Sucky Oilers? Please at least we fight for a playoff spot each year. Your team can't even do that. Whats worse is the league gave you training wheels (2x #1 picks) and you still can't get off the bottom. Take that dictionary and look up the words "Epic Fail".

Hall - He only has 2 less goals in 11 less games than Iginla. Age is 20.

All the above was meaningless but this "Hall" comment proves you have no clue. We will talk again after your mighty Hall has chalked up a full 10x 30 goal seasons "In a Row" until then your Mr Hall is designated to the peon in comparable. This season is not over but how many 30 goal seasons has Mr Hall under his belt? None you say..I'm sorry I thought you said none.. Maybe my ears are plugged I could have sworn you were attempting to compare a rookie whose best nhl season is 22 goals with a vet who has racked up 10x30 +goals season(2 were 50+ goals and 2 more were 40+ goals)ALL IN A ROW

Do you know what delusional means? Of course you do, right beside the word there's a mirror in the dictionary. Please look it up again.

Thanks for your humble opinion of dreams, spiked Kool-Aid infused garbage. You have nothing until all that promise actually achieves something. Your Oilers haven't but lets compare anyways.

Go up 3 slots and take a hard look at the Eastern Oilers.

The New York Islanders, who have picked first twice, second once, and chosen third, fourth and fifth three times in the draft, remain the most dysfunctional franchise in all of hockey. for now.

Look below you Columbus:

The Columbus Blue Jackets have played in one playoff round in 10 years of existence. They’ve had top 10 draft picks 10 different times. It hasn’t taken them anywhere near contender status.

Well there must be some more comparables.. there is:

The Atlanta Thrashers have played 10 full seasons and have never won a playoff game. They have drafted first twice, second twice, third and fourth in their history: (Maybe finding them a Home in Winnipeg will help at least they are now contending for a playoff spot)GL Jets. I know your fanbase won't settle for another Lotto Pick instead of a possible playoff spot.

Okay lets look at another comparable:

While the Kings may seem to be a model for managerial patience and bottoming out — building through the draft being the catch phrase — understand this: The Kings missed the playoffs six straight years to get the draft picks necessary to compete. In the seventh building year, they made the playoffs and were eliminated in six games. Last year out first round. This is Year 9. If the season ended on Wednesday, the Kings would not be in the playoffs. So for all their patience, all their doing things the “right way” you can ask yourself a question: Where exactly are they?

And you are telling me this song and dance you will be contending in a couple of years?

Who exactly is delusional here?? You can show me the examples of how Chicago did it, and the Penguins did it, but until the Edmonton Oilers start to do it they haven't done anything.

[ConnorFutureGM]

That is not my picture self professed "Village Idiot" it happenns to be a mirror. That the best you can do?

- If the best you can come up with is the "mirror" comeback I feel bad for arguing with you.

Lololol Your team is going to be cup contenders because you want to compare the Flames to the Sucky Oilers? Please at least we fight for a playoff spot each year. Your team can't even do that. Whats worse is the league gave you training wheels (2x #1 picks) and you still can't get off the bottom. Take that dictionary and look up the words "Epic Fail".

- Aren't you old and your using terms like "epic fail"? You spend too much time on the internet. The Oilers' core players are in their 2nd and 1st years in the league. Can you comprehend this?

All the above was meaningless but this "Hall" comment proves you have no clue. We will talk again after your mighty Hall has chalked up a full 10x 30 goal seasons "In a Row" until then your Mr Hall is designated to the peon in comparable. This season is not over but how many 30 goal seasons has Mr Hall under his belt? None you say..I'm sorry I thought you said none.. Maybe my ears are plugged I could have sworn you were attempting to compare a rookie whose best nhl season is 22 goals with a vet who has racked up 10x30 +goals season(2 were 50+ goals and 2 more were 40+ goals)ALL IN A ROW

- Are you in love with Iginla? Is Iginla going to score 50 goals again? Is he going to score 30 for next 10 years? Your lover is going to retire soon, what are the Flames going to do then?

Do you know what delusional means? Of course you do, right beside the word there's a mirror in the dictionary. Please look it up again.

- Again with the mirror? Is this your A material?

Thanks for your humble opinion of dreams, spiked Kool-Aid infused garbage. You have nothing until all that promise actually achieves something. Your Oilers haven't but lets compare anyways.

Go up 3 slots and take a hard look at the Eastern Oilers.

The New York Islanders, who have picked first twice, second once, and chosen third, fourth and fifth three times in the draft, remain the most dysfunctional franchise in all of hockey. for now.

Look below you Columbus:

The Columbus Blue Jackets have played in one playoff round in 10 years of existence. They’ve had top 10 draft picks 10 different times. It hasn’t taken them anywhere near contender status.

Well there must be some more comparables.. there is:

The Atlanta Thrashers have played 10 full seasons and have never won a playoff game. They have drafted first twice, second twice, third and fourth in their history: (Maybe finding them a Home in Winnipeg will help at least they are now contending for a playoff spot)GL Jets. I know your fanbase won't settle for another Lotto Pick instead of a possible playoff spot.

Okay lets look at another comparable:

While the Kings may seem to be a model for managerial patience and bottoming out — building through the draft being the catch phrase — understand this: The Kings missed the playoffs six straight years to get the draft picks necessary to compete. In the seventh building year, they made the playoffs and were eliminated in six games. Last year out first round. This is Year 9. If the season ended on Wednesday, the Kings would not be in the playoffs. So for all their patience, all their doing things the “right way” you can ask yourself a question: Where exactly are they?

And you are telling me this song and dance you will be contending in a couple of years?

Who exactly is delusional here?? You can show me the examples of how Chicago did it, and the Penguins did it, but until the Edmonton Oilers start to do it they haven't done anything.

Columbus, Atlanta and NYI are different organizations than the Oilers. Do you see the difference? Fan base and ability to spend are the big differences.

HA HA HA, you are warning the me about the lack of success of the Kings? Last time I looked they were doing a lot better than the Flames as an organization.

You did nothing to address the future of the Flames. Tell me how the Flames will rise to contenders if you can. I won't blame you if you can't.

[DirtyDeeds]

Thanks Conner for your uniformed and delusional thoughts.

I have to ask though. You keep referring to Flames difficulties, to sum up your Leaps of Faith Oiler thoughts.

This is the Oilers and how they are attempting to build thread.

Our Flames performance has nothing to do with "your lack of success" excepting the 2 points for each time we play. You seem to have difficulty separating that fact.

How long has it been since your "Going to Contend for a Cup" Oilers has been anywhere but the basement? You are welcome to conveniently ignore your poor D and Goalies that won't get you anywhere, all you want, but burying your head in the sand won't move you up any standings either.

In any drag race you have to make it off the starting line without jumping the gun. To make it to the finals you have to compete and finish better than a mediocrity of other teams. My team is competing and your team isn't.

Saying my team is worse off doesn't change the lack of any progress from your team now does it......

Standings prove we have not been worse off... this year, last year, year before that, year before that, year before that, year before that, year before that.....

[UnrefinedCrude]

Standings prove we have not been worse off... this year, last year, year before that, year before that, year before that, year before that, year before that.....

which of those years was the one where we were in the Cup final? You didn't go far enough back to get to the only year in the last 23 that you won a playoff round.

Your team has been marginally better than us for 5 years, not forever.

[DL44]

Connor.. you seem waay outta your element here. 1 win spurred all this?

Because a team lacks top 3 draft picks hardly dooms them in the future.

Calgary has the edge in organizational reputation... They have been and will continue to attract the better FA's to supplement their lineup to a much greater degree than the oilers will... till the oilers start winning. That's what recent history has shown.

'Potential' is a difficult sell to FA vets looking to win. Till we see those quality signings actually happen in Edm... its pretty obvious they aren't a FA destination for the foreseeable future. Come back when they do.. Despite what 'Oil Change' will have you believe, Belanger isn't that type of signing.

Calgary is set up right now and for the next couple seasons to contend for the playoffs much better than the oilers because of flat out superior depth.

Oilers are set up nicely with youngens... but it remains to be seen if management has the ability to supplement the roster with the right supporting cast. So far - not even close.

Keep screaming 'but the future!' tho... It's a nice dream.

And i have to add... i don't like the Oilers chances of sniffing the playoffs for awhile if the realignment goes thru 2 seasons from now.

They would have to crack the top 4 in a conference of:

Van, SJ, LA, Ana, Cal, Col and Pho....

But lots changes in 2-3 seasons... for you to spout like the oilers are some kind of lock for success screams ignorance.

What did Vancouver future look like 2 yrs ago?

From just 2 seasons ago - OUT - Samuelsson, Ehrhoff, Wellwood, Bernier, Demitra, Mitchell, Grabner, O'Brien, Johnson and other scraps like Hordichuk, Glass..

IN - Booth, Hamhuis, Hodgson, Malhotra, Lapierre, Higgens, Ballard, Tanev, and bits in Weise, Bitz, Sulzer, Duco etc...

You need 2 things...

1 - an organization that wins and is draw for FAs

2 - a competent management staff to pull the right triggers.

.. without those 2 components, doesn't matter how many top end picks you get if management can't supplement with the right pieces.. i.e. not Belangers, Eagers, Hordichuks, or Barkers...

Need more Suttons, and... ummm.. yeah..

[DirtyDeeds]

which of those years was the one where we were in the Cup final? You didn't go far enough back to get to the only year in the last 23 that you won a playoff round.

Your team has been marginally better than us for 5 years, not forever.

I did not go back farther for a couple of reasons.

1. Hockey changed from pre-lockout. Most comparisons farther back don't work well at all.

2. There did not seem to be much point in going back and including both our playoff runs.

So I stopped short including a few "year before that" for effect and to only include those years we have competed for a playoff spot.

[Flyerfan52]

Connor.. you seem waay outta your element here. 1 win spurred all this?

Because a team lacks top 3 draft picks hardly dooms them in the future.

Calgary has the edge in organizational reputation... They have been and will continue to attract the better FA's to supplement their lineup to a much greater degree than the oilers will... till the oilers start winning. That's what recent history has shown.

'Potential' is a difficult sell to FA vets looking to win. Till we see those quality signings actually happen in Edm... its pretty obvious they aren't a FA destination for the foreseeable future. Come back when they do.. Despite what 'Oil Change' will have you believe, Belanger isn't that type of signing.

Calgary is set up right now and for the next couple seasons to contend for the playoffs much better than the oilers because of flat out superior depth.

Oilers are set up nicely with youngens... but it remains to be seen if management has the ability to supplement the roster with the right supporting cast. So far - not even close.

Keep screaming 'but the future!' tho... It's a nice dream.

And i have to add... i don't like the Oilers chances of sniffing the playoffs for awhile if the realignment goes thru 2 seasons from now.

They would have to crack the top 4 in a conference of:

Van, SJ, LA, Ana, Cal, Col and Pho....

But lots changes in 2-3 seasons... for you to spout like the oilers are some kind of lock for success screams ignorance.

What did Vancouver future look like 2 yrs ago?

From just 2 seasons ago - OUT - Samuelsson, Ehrhoff, Wellwood, Bernier, Demitra, Mitchell, Grabner, O'Brien, Johnson and other scraps like Hordichuk, Glass..

IN - Booth, Hamhuis, Hodgson, Malhotra, Lapierre, Higgens, Ballard, Tanev, and bits in Weise, Bitz, Sulzer, Duco etc...

You need 2 things...

1 - an organization that wins and is draw for FAs

2 - a competent management staff to pull the right triggers.

.. without those 2 components, doesn't matter how many top end picks you get if management can't supplement with the right pieces.. i.e. not Belangers, Eagers, Hordichuks, or Barkers...

Need more Suttons, and... ummm.. yeah..

Very well put DL.

If Connor responds @ least 1 of his comments will call you old. That's his favorite defensive move when losing a discussion.

*As an aside, Wellwood isn't that bad. I carped about the Jets signing him & either you or Don said he'd grow on me. Whichever it was is correct. Now I'd like to see him re-signed (to a reasonable contract).*

[UnrefinedCrude]

I did not go back farther for a couple of reasons.

1. Hockey changed from pre-lockout. Most comparisons farther back don't work well at all.

2. There did not seem to be much point in going back and including both our playoff runs.

So I stopped short including a few "year before that" for effect and to only include those years we have competed for a playoff spot.

That's hilarious, you made the post, you put the three dots to imply the list goes on.

Fact is, you don't want to acknowledge that you have no case.

Last year both teams missed the playoffs, we were last, Flames marginally better.

Year before that both teams missed the playoffs we were last, Flames were marginally better.

Year before that we missed the playoffs by 6 points, you guys got torched in the first round, Flames marginally better.

Year before that we finished 9th, you got into the playoffs and lost in the first round.Flames marginally better.

We went to the final in '06, we did better.

You went to the final in'04 you did better.

You want to ignore everything before that because for the prior 3 decades (aside from, really 2 years,) it was all Oilers.

So how can you imply you are historically better, when you haven't been, and during the last 5 years when you have been better, you still haven't been very good either? You haven't won a playoff round. You have nothing positive to celebrate as a franchise, you only have our recent woes to revel in.

[DirtyDeeds]

That's hilarious, you made the post, you put the three dots to imply the list goes on.

Fact is, you don't want to acknowledge that you have no case.

Last year both teams missed the playoffs, we were last, Flames marginally better.

Year before that both teams missed the playoffs we were last, Flames were marginally better.

Year before that we missed the playoffs by 6 points, you guys got torched in the first round, Flames marginally better.

Year before that we finished 9th, you got into the playoffs and lost in the first round.Flames marginally better.

We went to the final in '06, we did better.

You went to the final in'04 you did better.

You want to ignore everything before that because for the prior 3 decades (aside from, really 2 years,) it was all Oilers.

So how can you imply you are historically better, when you haven't been, and during the last 5 years when you have been better, you still haven't been very good either? You haven't won a playoff round. You have nothing positive to celebrate as a franchise, you only have our recent woes to revel in.

If you want to go back, Add them up then.

Total over all wins against each other.. Flames Win.

Recent History Flames huge difference and many more wins.

Latest record. Flames all the way. Until last night it was what? 2008 since you won in our barn? Lost 9 of last 10 to us? Congratz on your 1 win last night, in what seems like forever.

Here it comes, the only thing you can fall back on. The Wayne Gretzky Dynasty, can you feel it, go for it Crude

[UnrefinedCrude]

Here it comes, the only thing you can fall back on. The Wayne Gretzky Dynasty, can you feel it, go for it Crude

You pointed to the past, I called you on it.

But the Gretzky era brings up a point, it has been decades since either team has anything to brag about.

Since lockout we have the better playoff record, (3 series wins to none and only Cup appearance.)

Your team has been marginally better than us over the last 5 years, but you likewise have nothing to brag about.

Where is this success you want me to envy? Surely it doesn't lie in not getting past the first round?

[DL44]

next tangent for the conversation... which team had the better expansion yr.

[UnrefinedCrude]

next tangent for the conversation... which team had the better expansion yr.

Not Vancouver, that's for sure. Plenty of mud here to wallow in, if you wanna join deeds and me.

[Crzydrvr]

Columbus, Atlanta and NYI are different organizations than the Oilers. Do you see the difference? Fan base and ability to spend are the big differences.

HA HA HA, you are warning the me about the lack of success of the Kings? Last time I looked they were doing a lot better than the Flames as an organization.

You did nothing to address the future of the Flames. Tell me how the Flames will rise to contenders if you can. I won't blame you if you can't.

which of those years was the one where we were in the Cup final? You didn't go far enough back to get to the only year in the last 23 that you won a playoff round.

Your team has been marginally better than us for 5 years, not forever.

I knew the Oilers would get high off of a single victory, but I didn't expect this level of name-calling in the thread.

First off, I'd say dissing on Kipper is the one thing you will get killed for here down south. You can say all you want about everything else, but if you touch Kipper that's just going too far. Or are you just jealous that we have a guy who can steal games for an average team?

If marginally better means that we're consistently a 5-10th place team, then I'll take it. Usually guarantees we're 5 spots ahead of you in the West anyways. Free agents don't want to be the guy behind a young and playing like crap team, they'd rather be the frontrunner on a competing team. That's why Richards took a serious look at us last summer (that and the $$$ we offered). You think he'd give the same attention to the Oilers for the same or even more $$$? Probably not.

Last time I checked, the LA Kings have made the playoffs only to be punted out in the first round each time. They're consistently a 6th-10th team. Sounds an awful lot like a team we have. Except that we made the playoffs for a longer streak before tailing off. Their prospect pool is arguably even worse than ours, our team is only marginally older, and the only reasons we both compete are because our goalies have to play lights out due to the fact that we are both slow. I don't see how LA is doing so good, especially since they have cap issues whereas our situation improves drastically over the next 2 years.

Let's look at the three situations you named Connor. Let's do that. We're going to look at each subjectively here.

1. Atlanta: Tanked 4 years and got the 1st overall 1999 (Patrik Stefan), 2nd overall in 2000 (Dany Heatley), the 1st in 2001 (Ilya Kovalchuk) and another 2nd overall (Kari Lehtonen). Kovalchuk and Heatley made their debuts and both did better than any Oilers youngster did in a tighter checking NHL. Second year, Heatley broke out and developed into a star while Kovalchuk improved on his own pace significantly. Everyone said that they were a team on the rise and that with two young superstars, they'd be contenders. 3rd year, Heatley starts slow, then gets into an accident that kills a teammate and takes him out of commission for the rest of the year before he requests a trade out of Atlanta. Kovalchuk develops into a star but still no playoffs. They end up trading Heatley for Hossa and despite having Hossa, Kovalchuk, Marc Savard, Slava Kozlov, and Kari Lehtonen, they fail to get anywhere over the next three seasons (beyond a first round powder by the lower seeded NY Rangers). Hossa gets traded, Savard signs with Boston, Lehtonen never met expectations and was traded, Stefan was a disappointment, and despite his years of service to the Thrashers Kovalchuk finally gives up on the cause and gets dealt to NJ.

That team had no defense, their goaltending was better than the Oilers and it still wasn't good enough despite having over a PPG players like Kozlov, Kovalchuk, Hossa, Heatley, and Savard at various points over 7 seasons. Scoring sensations, no D, and average goaltending. Sound familiar?

2. Columbus: Numerous top picks. It reads like a list of some of the biggest busts in recent NHL draft history: Picard (8th), Zherdev (4th), Brule (6th), Leclaire (8th), Filatov (6th). They had goaltending (Leclaire and Mason both had good seasons at one point for the BJs), they had scoring at various points over their tenure, but what's left now? Nash and Brassard are the only forwards from the old regime still around. Moore is the only defenseman. Beyond Brassard, Nash, and a small number of role players (Vermette, Dorsett) basically everyone else there looks like they want to play their way out of the NHL. Or at least out of Columbus. Luckily they managed to get out of the woods once before getting spanked by the Red Wings in 4 straight.

Nash was supposed to be their centerpiece. Now he's getting shopped around because every one else that was supposed to be around him failed. I personally still believe he should stay in Columbus but I'm not Scott Howson. And Howson already has a history of a gambler and making questionable decisions.

3. Islanders: The most mishandled team to ever exist in the NHL (though those 1990s Lightning teams could give them a run for their money). They've actually done pretty well for themselves lately, despite the apparent mishandling of both Josh Bailey and Nino Niederreiter. Nabokov is a solid NHL tender with comparable stats to Kipper this season. That hasn't stopped them from remaining in the both 5 of the league. Despite all-world play from Tavares, the rest of the lineup has been perennialy underwhelming.

Laugh all you want about our love affair with Kipper, but you won/t be laughing after you find yourselves in a similar spot to Atlanta or Columbus someday. Both those teams spent plenty of money too, and it didn/t get them far. In fact, the BJs are spending money RIGHT NOW to stay in the basement. It's an almost impossible task of trying to get over the hurdle and it needs a lot to fall into place. A goalie stepping up (Fleury and Niemi for example), a great D (Gonchar, Gill, Orpik , Letang , Goligoski and Scuderi for Pens; Seabrook, Keith, Hjalmarsson, and co. in ChiTown) and a great coach (Quenneville and Bylsma). The Oilers are hoping for something similar but so far the results are nil.

None of the current contending teams are rebuild-by-scorched earth methods beyond Pittsburgh. And they spent YEARS wandering through the forest building up depth before that final push over the top. Every other team has constantly retooled itself. I honestly don't know how much potential is good for, but if it's not in the right organization then you may as well kiss it goodbye. I don't doubt that Eberle, Hall and Company are going to be real good, I just doubt whether the TEAM will be any good. And history's shown us that teams who tank without the prerequisite depth on D and in net oftentimes fail to ever reach anything a la Florida, Atlanta, and NY. They have star players, but those star players basically waste their years away because nothing ever comes that pulls the rest of the depth out of a ditch.

[ConnorFutureGM]

Thanks Conner for your uniformed and delusional thoughts.

I have to ask though. You keep referring to Flames difficulties, to sum up your Leaps of Faith Oiler thoughts.

This is the Oilers and how they are attempting to build thread.

Our Flames performance has nothing to do with "your lack of success" excepting the 2 points for each time we play. You seem to have difficulty separating that fact.

How long has it been since your "Going to Contend for a Cup" Oilers has been anywhere but the basement? You are welcome to conveniently ignore your poor D and Goalies that won't get you anywhere, all you want, but burying your head in the sand won't move you up any standings either.

In any drag race you have to make it off the starting line without jumping the gun. To make it to the finals you have to compete and finish better than a mediocrity of other teams. My team is competing and your team isn't.

Saying my team is worse off doesn't change the lack of any progress from your team now does it......

Standings prove we have not been worse off... this year, last year, year before that, year before that, year before that, year before that, year before that.....

Actually, I brought this thread back from the bottom of the pile to be more of a Oilers vs Flames thread.

The Flames are getting worse every season. Made it to the finals, made it to the playoffs a couple of times and now are not finishing in the playoffs.

Worse off than what, the Oilers? The Oilers to is improving while the Flames are withering away.

You again fail to at all address the difference in the cores of these teams.

Flames - Players are either in or past their prime.

Oilers - Players are 18, 20 and 21.

That's why I can say the Oilers are going to improve while the Flames are going to fall.

[DL44]

Very well put DL.

If Connor responds @ least 1 of his comments will call you old. That's his favorite defensive move when losing a discussion.

*As an aside, Wellwood isn't that bad. I carped about the Jets signing him & either you or Don said he'd grow on me. Whichever it was is correct. Now I'd like to see him re-signed (to a reasonable contract).*

Oh i wasn't stating Wellwood was bad.. i liked him on our team. I was definitely in the camp that knew you'll grow to love the guy... how can you not! (Upgrading the 3rd line center position for the canucks was an organizational need at the time... just needed to get to get bigger and faster that particular position, so in came Malhotra. Would not of minded keeping him, but there was no room)

I was just making a point as to the amount of turnover that can occur in just a mere 2 seasons.

You just have no idea what it will like outside the core. The Edm core is 'potentially' great. It's everything that needs an overhaul... and will undergo a massive one over the next 2 seasons. Question for Oiler fans is - Are you comfortable and have complete faith that Tambellini-Lowe-Renney will be the leadership corp capable of making the necessary moves??

I don't see how you possibly could be at this point. I personally hope they stick with the trio to see what they can (or can't) do.

My tangent...

- Back to FF52 and Wellwood for a sec.. is his scouting report still the same?

- Elite level hands, high IQ, great on faceoffs, good passer, good defensively and getting in passing lanes, good shot but doesn't get it off enough..

..will win occasional board battles with his stick, but get knocked off his skates a lot (especially corners), makes weak/soft/touch passes that get picked off leading to turnovers?

Are those still his general pros and cons?

[senor_incendiarse]

You pointed to the past, I called you on it.

But the Gretzky era brings up a point, it has been decades since either team has anything to brag about.

Since lockout we have the better playoff record, (3 series wins to none and only Cup appearance.)

Your team has been marginally better than us over the last 5 years, but you likewise have nothing to brag about.

Where is this success you want me to envy? Surely it doesn't lie in not getting past the first round?

Define marginally for me. In the last 5.5 seasons the Flames have 117 more points than the Oilers IMO thats not marginally better, thats much much better. No Flames fans are bragging about any recent success because obviously there is none, but you make it seem that we can't brag about being dominant in recent history against our top rival.

[UnrefinedCrude]

Question for Oiler fans is - Are you comfortable and have complete faith that Tambellini-Lowe-Renney will be the leadership corp capable of making the necessary moves??

Not at all. I think 2 of those names will begone before Taylor Hall's free agency becomes an issue (hopefully before RFA, but certainly before UFA.)

[DL44]

Not Vancouver, that's for sure. Plenty of mud here to wallow in, if you wanna join deeds and me.

Really? you wanna talk about Sunday's game?

[UnrefinedCrude]

Really? you wanna talk about Sunday's game?

haha, I was just continuing the spirit of the conversation.

_{I actually like dirtydeeds, he says what`s on his mind, whether I agree or not.}

[DL44]

Not at all. I think 2 of those names will begone before Taylor Hall's free agency becomes an issue (hopefully before RFA, but certainly before UFA.)

Then how can you guys be so damn smug about how successful your franchise will be if you concede the team will actually continue to fail to the point it gets it's management fired?

How can you be so sure Edm will take steps to improve their weaknesses when you don't even know who will be in charge of making those changes?

Well... i guess you are taking the 'it can't much worse' approach?

[ConnorFutureGM]

Connor.. you seem waay outta your element here. 1 win spurred all this?

No, I was saying the same stuff earlier as you can see in this thread.

Because a team lacks top 3 draft picks hardly dooms them in the future.

I didn't ever say that. The Flames future looks bleak because of their aging core and weak prospect pool.

Calgary has the edge in organizational reputation... They have been and will continue to attract the better FA's to supplement their lineup to a much greater degree than the oilers will... till the oilers start winning. That's what recent history has shown.

Disagree. The Flames roster does not scream "contending team" to any FA. They're in the same boat as the Oilers.

'Potential' is a difficult sell to FA vets looking to win. Till we see those quality signings actually happen in Edm... its pretty obvious they aren't a FA destination for the foreseeable future. Come back when they do.. Despite what 'Oil Change' will have you believe, Belanger isn't that type of signing.

Calgary is set up right now and for the next couple seasons to contend for the playoffs much better than the oilers because of flat out superior depth.

Oilers are set up nicely with youngens... but it remains to be seen if management has the ability to supplement the roster with the right supporting cast. So far - not even close.

You think the Flames have more organizational depth? Most of their prospects are AHLers which will be more physically ready to play in the NHL but look at their key players, who is going to pick up the pieces if one of Iginla, Kiprusoff or Bouwmeester goes down for an extended period of time? They will be at the bottom of the standings. The Oilers have been suffering injuries to key players and the Flames are a veteran team that knows what it takes to win close games. Those are the only two reasons why the Flames have been better than the Oilers recently.

Keep screaming 'but the future!' tho... It's a nice dream.

And i have to add... i don't like the Oilers chances of sniffing the playoffs for awhile if the realignment goes thru 2 seasons from now.

They would have to crack the top 4 in a conference of:

Van, SJ, LA, Ana, Cal, Col and Pho....

We'll see about the realignment. Calgary, San Jose and Phoenix are older teams.

But lots changes in 2-3 seasons... for you to spout like the oilers are some kind of lock for success screams ignorance.

What did Vancouver future look like 2 yrs ago?

From just 2 seasons ago - OUT - Samuelsson, Ehrhoff, Wellwood, Bernier, Demitra, Mitchell, Grabner, O'Brien, Johnson and other scraps like Hordichuk, Glass..

IN - Booth, Hamhuis, Hodgson, Malhotra, Lapierre, Higgens, Ballard, Tanev, and bits in Weise, Bitz, Sulzer, Duco etc...

You need 2 things...

1 - an organization that wins and is draw for FAs

2 - a competent management staff to pull the right triggers.

.. without those 2 components, doesn't matter how many top end picks you get if management can't supplement with the right pieces.. i.e. not Belangers, Eagers, Hordichuks, or Barkers...

Need more Suttons, and... ummm.. yeah..

Strongly disagree. Boston's only major piece that was signed was Chara and that was in 2006. Chicago signed Hossa, Pittsburgh didn't have anyone that was a huge FA and Detroit had Rafalski but this was not the difference. All of these teams built through the draft. The FA signings were meant to supplement what was already established. If the Oilers prove that they are building somethings close to being able to contend, I think they will be able to sign that extra player needed, it doesn't even have to be a big FA.

That's hilarious, you made the post, you put the three dots to imply the list goes on.

Fact is, you don't want to acknowledge that you have no case.

Last year both teams missed the playoffs, we were last, Flames marginally better.

Year before that both teams missed the playoffs we were last, Flames were marginally better.

Year before that we missed the playoffs by 6 points, you guys got torched in the first round, Flames marginally better.

Year before that we finished 9th, you got into the playoffs and lost in the first round.Flames marginally better.

We went to the final in '06, we did better.

You went to the final in'04 you did better.

You want to ignore everything before that because for the prior 3 decades (aside from, really 2 years,) it was all Oilers.

So how can you imply you are historically better, when you haven't been, and during the last 5 years when you have been better, you still haven't been very good either? You haven't won a playoff round. You have nothing positive to celebrate as a franchise, you only have our recent woes to revel in.

Good point, did even notice his ellipses.