FlamesLogic
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Posts posted by FlamesLogic
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Hard to convince a cup winner to part with their #1 guy, even if he sat out the playoffs. They talk tough, but have very little latitude that gives them a decent return.
Niemi/Lettin-it-in is the worst choice.
Yes Niemi is the worst choice (Reimer is better) BUT the only reason you get Niemi is if you deal Wideman back.
Matchsticks and Gasoline actually put together a nice comparison of most of the available goalies here:
I wish he included Bobrosky in the analysis
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Bishop is best goalie but Im not convinced Tampa needs to deal him.
MAF needs to be dealt. Bobrovsky contributes to a horrible CBJ roster management problem. Could be rewarded for helping them out.
Niemi or Lehtonen need to be moved.Rask/Subban have similar issue to Pitt.
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Thats the thing, Calgary cant afford Bishop with a raise next year either. Or would find it very difficult to do so with heavy investment in D and young forwards.
So if its a one year thing as a stop gap then whats the cost? -
I think the Ben Bishop talk is false smoke. Tampa has no reason to deal him since protecting him isnt an issue (him being UFA and all). Infact they can probably get just as much as a deadline rental as they could right now.
The only reason they would need to deal him would be for cap considerations. They only reason they would have cap considerations is if they are trying to pay Stamkos. The only way they can sign Stamkos is if they have Bishop in net. Pus you need Bishop to play ball with his NMC.
As such I don't expect anything to happen on the Bishop front until at least a week after the start of UFA when Stamkos is likely signed. AND most likely, nothing until TDL 2017. -
It's not impossible for them to keep MAF, but I think Rutherford sees now as the time to deal him. He alluded to that in his comments.
The issues facing JR if they keep him:
1) $5.75m against the cap
2) He has to be protected as it stands now (NMC with term remaining). The NHL leaked them early on.
3) In-season injury preventing him from being traded.
4) If he gets stuck as a backup, he could demand to not be traded to a team in need.
5) He outplays Murray in the regular season, so they need to keep him for the playoffs.
The NHL has done all but the official announcement of expansion. They have to wait til the BOG meeting on June 22nd.
Agreed, they get more for him today than if they wait until end of next season. More certainty as well. Only gamble is if Murray is a replacement or if hes another Cam Ward (parlay a rookie cup run into multiple years of solid but uninspiring play).
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It would be between SC final and entry draft. And there is no guarantee that it will force a teams hands for this season unless some other rules of engagements come down that lock a player to a roster.
I can see Pitt really wanted to take another kick at the can with the players they got and then worrying about dealing them in that short window. -
Puuleeze.
No tanks to Niemi. The two most likely are MAF and Andersen. Possible outside chance on Elliott, but that would be a steal.
4 options right now.
a) MAF from Pitt - only if expansion forces it
Anderson from ANA - only if expansion forces it or RFA deal can't get donec) Niemi for Wideman - Allows both teams to shift a contract they don't want to pay to a team that could make use of a decent player, just one that has an undesirable contract. (Niemi is more about having over 10M in goalie contracts)
d) UFA likely Reimer OR outside chance of Chad Johnson or Antii Raanta
Doing nothing isnt an option. Need a second goalie in NHL.
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Wideman for Niemi deal just got more real with Cam Ward signing and Goligoski being dealt
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Murray isn't going anywhere. If Pittsburgh trades anyone it will be Fleury. Matt Murray at not even 22 Years old just got the Pens further than Fleury has in years. He is off the market, no doubt in my mind. I honestly don't even think the Penguins would consider trading him if you offered Bennett.
I think Fleury is the one that will get dealt and I definitely think the Flames should inquire and for the right price I'd do that deal in a heartbeat. I also don't thinkt he price is going to be huge because of the limited goalie market and the fact that he is paid 5 mill plus for the next 3 years.
Agreed, IF expansion comes, one of them becomes available. With the play of Murray being at least on par with MAF proper asset management would dictate they keep the more cost effective goalie.
That makes MAF available.
This is only if expansion becomes a factor. If not then they keep both as they are still affordable right now.
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I would be too. I don't think the current location is horrible to be honest. Not ideal but I think the downtown location is more important for hockey then it is for football. Football is one game a week, people will travel for that, but 2 sometimes 3 hockey games a week and most of them weekdays you need a downtown area IMO.
I think th bigger question is where would the stamps play while the new stadium was being built? Doubt very much you could tear down McMahon and build a new one in the matter of about 8 months.
I wonder why you couldnt design the new arena to handle football games. The field is bigger but the lower bowl can roll back seats to expand the floor area already in the saddle dome.
Designing a 35000 seat stadium is not practical for flames games (infact they dont project more seats with their current design, just more suites and primo seats) so the question is, does the stamps need 35000 seats for stamps games? Or will 15-20k seats in an ENCLOSED area be of more use? Obviously scale ticket pricing to match.
Im thinking there is a market for those paying $35 to sit outside in October to sit inside at $70.
The ideal thing about the stamps is that they typically play in the non hockey months so it gives the venue another 10-12 solid uses per year.
That said, I think the field house/mcmahon replacement may be something that a world games or olympics heralds in as a venue for opening/closing ceremonies and whatever events can take place on the floor of the venue. Thinking curling might be a good fit or even some of the figure skating events.
Hockey obviously in new facility
COP for ski jumps/snowboard/luge/bobsleigh, etc
Mountains for some of the alpine events
We already have the oval for speed skating, but maybe it needs a larger venue.
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Got to say, Freddy Anderson is looking good. Im still partial to a low cost UFA but maybe this guy might be worth something in trade.
Hes probably going to demand in the 3.5-4.5 mil range and if we equate that to an offersheet we are looking at a first and third for the trade.
Maybe Dallas first and our third is the price? (if we get them) or our second/third? Possibly could do that if his contract gets done and agreed to as part of the deal. 4x4?
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I mostly agree. With the caveat that if they can't find an upgrade to Ramo they might not have much of a choice.
On another note and not directed to DD, we are all assuming Ortio is earning a contract with the Flames. But what if they turn his recent success into trade value to bring in someone like Murray?
I think most would be ok with that scenario as well but you will still need to bring in some kind of vet or journeyman to help him transition.
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Chad Johnson is 29 years old and has only played 91 games in the NHL over 6 seasons.He is currently finishing his 5th contract (salary of $1.6M) and will be a UFA.His last 3 seasons:2013/2014 - Boston - 27 GP, 2.10 GAA, .925 SV%2014/2015 - NY Islanders - 19 GP, 3.08 GAA, .885 SV%2015/2016 - Buffalo - 35 GP, 2.42 GAA, .918 SV%He looks like a NHL backup who has had one good, one bad, & one decent season.Maybe he can play 50 + games/season and maintain decent numbers, but it would definitely be a gamble.Calgary may be taking a chance on Orito as their NHL backup next season.Do the Flames want to be gambling on both their goalies next year?
For what its worth hes a 6'3" goalie with better career numbers than Reimer.
And the fact that Carolina didnt deal UFA ward in a year where they dealt Eric Staal leads me to believe that there is a better than not chance that Carolina will resign him.
Now who is left with more games of experience that isnt on a downward trend or with better numbers that has played 100 games?
Its not as much of a risk as you might think. Ramo is only sitting at 150 games with a torn ACL and worse numbers than Reimer (2.85 and .906)
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I don't think price equates to how good a goaltender can or will be. All players play their way into the money and first of all they have to have that opportunity. they may have the talent and be making 1.5M. everything I see of Ortio is looking like he has all kinds of positives.
Exactly, infact contract increases expectations which in turn puts stress on goalie.
imo let lets others chase the "names" in Cam Ward or Reimer, give me Chad Johnson any day. Raised in Calgary, played in Brooks. Consistent stats across multiple teams. Good goalie frame at 6'3". Can take a contract where he plays the lead in a tandem with ortio at 50 ish games a season. Probably wont demand an overpayment on his contract and may be had in the 3-4.5 range depending on term.
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My problem with Ramo is we don't need "Ramo". We need "better than Ramo".
So, if he comes back from his ACL tear and is able to regain his previous form, that's not even good enough. The question is, can he come back from ACL tear and be even better? Will a 30-year-old coming off ACL tear be better than he used to be?
Odds are no. I think the best place he will find a home is behind Luongo in Florida at say 2M. Gives him more time to rehabilitate and gives the panthers a decent stop gap at a good price in the event Luongo gets a major injury
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Not sure about ACL's and impact on goalies. Certainly its a serious injury and it seems the recuperation time will take until late October or November at the earliest. That alone makes Ramo a bit of a challenge and unlikely the complete answer. The good thing about him is we have a history and know he can (could) provide league-average, if not better, and he won't cost us any other prospects to acquire.
I seriously doubt Reimer will be available for 3 years, much less 2 years, and for fairly high dollars especially if he continues to do well with SJS. In fact, if he does I'd expect him to re-sign there. I don't see any other UFAs as any better than Ramo, if even equal to.
Equal to Ramo before ACL tear. Who knows how that will impact him especially with it happening fairly late in the season. 10 months to recover to playable form most cases and thats just playable. Thats not 100%. Ramo likely wont be 100% until 2017-2018.
I agree, I dont know what offers Reimer will get but there are really only two teams willing to pay more than 3M for a goalie. Us and Carolina. Maybe florida opens the wallet a bit to have a good backup behind Luongo and his 4.5M but I think they are looking more at the Enroth types as well if they can be had for Brian Elliot or Jake Allen money (2.5M).
Cam Ward and Reimer are the two bigger names. Unless someone wants to overpay for one of them to be a strong backup we are the only people that might put say 2x4.5M on the table for one of them.
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Very well said, and if they re-sign Ortio and Ramo while keeping all our other assets then we are likely good for next year and can focus on other pressing matters.
Goalies coming off torn ACL's are not a high priority for me. Either give them longer away to heal or let another team recuperate them.
I dont look at Ramo if I have the option to get: Ward, Reimer, Chad Johnson, Enroth, Raanta or even a reasonable deal to get Niemi from Dallas or someone elses RFA like a Mrazek. As such I think there is probably 10 other options to look at before we look at Ramo.
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While I agree that we don't anoint him a starter I find it disappointing that so many (more than you two) are pegging his ceiling as being a "good backup".
Yes, we need an experienced NHL goalie on a short-term contract for insurance. But why on earth we wouldn't give Ortio the opportunity to show he can be a 1a/1b or starter next season baffles me.
You give Ortio about 25-30 starts next year after signing him to a one or two year one way deal close to what his RFA status dictates. You need to bring in a guy to handle the other 50 or so starts. Gillies is at least 2-3 years away as he needs at least 1 full AHL season under his belt to show what he can do.
No one is saying Ortio can't be a starter, just that for his development (he is still a younger goalie) you want to give him room to grow without carrying all the stress on his own.
2 years behind a veteran in the NHL is the best case and I think most will agree. After those 2 years you make your decision for further role.
Thats why I think a Chad Johnson (bigger Cam Talbot type) on a 2 yr reasonable price deal is one of the better options.
If Johnson stinks up the joint you arent invested long term and can turn to Ortio/Gillies.
If Johnson is good you continue the relationship and maybe move Ortio to make room for Gillies.
OR if Johnson is good but Ortio is also pressing you ship out Johnson on TDL like Reimer this year and prepare for Ortio/Gillies.
The goalie rules are so skewed towards favouring big goalies that all things being equal take the 6'3" plus goalie instead as he covers quite a bit more of the net just in padding.
Its why Gillies is so attractive to me. A good 6'5" er like Ben Bishop.
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Well then it's Backstrom, right?
What is the fascination with having played tonnes of NHL games and still being cheaply available?
What, exactly, does that say?
Once again, this is not the time for next seasons' solutions. We need to see what we have in Ortio until the end of the season.
Regardless Ortio has played himself into a one way deal next year as the backup. He wont have a big enough sample size for anyone to annoint him as anything else. That said the better he plays the more you shy away from the Cam Wards and move more towards the Antti Raantas.
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I'm ok with all of your scenarios including Reimer. Key to me in the absence of elite options is to get the best value option and invest cap in other areas insteadI agree with some of your assessment but not all. Most of the available UFA are coming off back up duty and are hard to say if they could handle 40+ games. Should we go these route we likely need two similar goalies as a tandem. Reimer has the biggest body of work but I don't want to get into 3.5M for him for 3 years. I would rather try Raanta or Enroth both have played behind top goaltenders and should know what it takes to succeed. Either of these at 2.5M for 2 or 3 years would work for me along with Ortio.
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These are the teams and the goalies that are under contract next year. For RFA's that are likely to be resigned I included them as well.
Team Goalie A Goalie B Pittsburgh Penguins fluery murray Tampa Bay Lightning bishop vasilevskiy Detroit Red Wings howard Mrazek RFA St. Louis Blues Jake Allen Elliot Los Angeles Kings Quick Vancouver Canucks Miller Markstrom New York Rangers Lundqvist Hellberg Chicago Blackhawks Crawford Darling San Jose Sharks Jones Washington Capitals Holtby Grubauer Toronto Maple Leafs Bernier Sparks RFA Minnesota Wild Dubnyk Kuemper RFA Montreal Canadiens Price Condon Boston Bruins Rask Philadelphia Flyers Mason Neuvirth Dallas Stars Lehtonen Niemi Calgary Flames Ortio RFA Edmonton Oilers Talbot Brossoit Columbus Blue Jackets Bobrovsky McElhinney Florida Panthers Luongo New York Islanders Halak Greiss Ottawa Senators Anderson Hammond Anaheim Ducks Gibson Colorado Avalanche Varlamov Berra New Jersey Devils Schneider Kinkaid Nashville Predators Rinne Buffalo Sabres Lehner Carolina Hurricanes Eddie Lack Arizona Coyotes Mike Smith langhamer Winnipeg Jets Pavelec Hutchinson RFAThere are 9 NHL jobs available next year (including Calgary).
Of these 4 have a strong/expensive starter and as such are looking for a cheaper/weaker backup type if they dont promote from within.
As such there is only 4 other jobs competing with Calgary for a UFA goalie.
Backup for Luongo in Flordia
Starter in Calgary
Tandem with Gibson in Anaheim
Tandem/Backup for Lehner in Buffalo
Starter/Tandem in CarolinaOnly Carolina and Calgary can arguably say that they are looking for a goalie to handle more than 40 games a year.
As such why not simply see what can of value we can derive from the likes of Cam Ward, Reimer, Antti Raanta, Ramo, Chad Johnson?
We are likely one of the few teams willing to pay more than 3M to a goalie and we can see which player is able to bid himself for that job.
I dont see any of these guys as being supremely better than the other to the point where we need to get into a bidding war for their services.
Ramo and his injury is probably better off going to a place like Florida or Buffalo where he doesnt need to perform day 1.
Maybe this is the situation we need to force Reimer into a one or two year prove it contract to see if he can get bigger UFA dollars when the market is better.
Raanta is potentially a Cam Talbot quality goalie for free and may very well work for 3M and provide a more experienced lead goalie for Ortio to work behind.
The point is we have leverage due to playing opportunity and willingness to pay and we should maximize that to help save our cap dollars.
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Just to clarify my earlier posts, they are points of discussion, not resolutions.
The UFA goalie list isn't great, in fact Ward or Reimer are likely the best options.
Do you take a chance on a Hutton or Enroth? Do you take the vet backup in Montoya?
I'm kinda thinking we re-sign Ramo and Ortio walks after being offered a 2 way, lest his play here on out forces a one way.
Obviously it's all discussion and not my hardened opinion.
If it all blows up, and we bring no one back, we'll need probably a Reimer-Hutton combo, or something like that.
But how much cap are we going to have to do that? That's a pretty easy 6mil.
Why offer Ortio a 2 way? It doesnt help his waiver status and would make him less likely to sign. Just qualify him for a year or sign him for two at that level if it avoid arbitration.
I think he would feel alright about taking 700kish on a one way for a year or two while the flames see if he can really be the backup. His work this past month suggest to me that he can handle that role at a reasonable price for us.
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So that Ortio can observe a goalie with an obsolete blocker style combined with several bad habits and see exactly how NOT to be a successful goalie...
Sometimes seeing what NOT to do is just as good as seeing what to do
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Everyone was singing bobs praises last year when the goaltending was over performing. OLD BOB SURE KNOWS HOW TO PICK WHICH ONE TO ROLL WITH everyone said.
With a lost season its very likely that Bob sat down with the guys (who all want to play) and set out a schedule. Either a Win and you stay, lose we change type rule or a you get X games you get Y games type rule. Setting expectations with goalies at this time of year with this season situation helps to fend off frustration and lets them focus on being better goaltenders rather than trying to figure out why they arent playing.
Organizationally we can all see Ortio is the only one likely to be with the team next year but I dont think it necessarily does him any favours to hand him the job and say we suck so you get to play all the games. It also doesnt hurt to let him watch another veteran goalie first hand from time to time at the NHL level. AND with the likely scenario of Ortio being the backup next year it is good practice for him to keep himself ready knowing hes not playing for X games. Learn how do I keep myself NHL ready sitting X games.
That said, Ive actually thought Ortio has played well in the recent loses and the cynical side of me thinks the best way to combat a crap tanking team in buffalo is to put the worse goalie in net. Its more likely the scenarios above however.
Anderson from ANA - only if expansion forces it or RFA deal can't get done
Goaltending
in Flames Talk
Posted
CHad Johnson fits as a guy to challenge ortio