cross16

Please do list all of these goalies I was not for acquiring that went on to bigger and better things.... Plus maybe you also missed the part of my post where I said that I actually want the Flames to draft a goalie in the next season or two so that they may have another prospect in the pipeline. I've said before, IMO you should be drafting/acquiring a goalie at least every 2 drafts to keep that pipeline flowing. I'm confused by what you are getting at here. Are you suggesting we sign Godla as a prospect and then leave him over in Europe to develop? First of all, he is under contract so the only time you could negotiate with him is the offseason, not mid season, when he doens't have a contract and even if you did he would have to agree to be loaned back overseas if he didn't make the team. If he doesn't, then you have to find a spot for him in NA, so logistically its not going to work to sign 3-5 more goalie prospects all over the world plus you then have 3-5 contract spots wasted becuase even if they are loaned to Europe they count as one of your contracts. If it were as easy as signing someone just to have their rights while they played in Europe, then for sure, but it isn't.

I also don't agree with the idea of brining in more goalies in the low 20s right now unless they are a clear upgrade to Gilles or Macondald and IMO none of those are. You only have so many spots for guys to play and you need Gilles and Macdonald to play alot and they will ahve Schneider in a couple more seasons. There is enough depth for the Flames to choose from and there is definetly a risk of having too many goalie. I'd rather see them go with a later round pick int he next draft or two and stagger the development then waste a contract and bring in a FA who still needs development time.

While there is some yes, name me another team other than Detroit than in the last 10 -15 years has been a consistanty playoff team and didn't need to "rebuild" in some sort of fashion? I'd love for the Flames to be a Detroit but the truth is its extremely difficult to do so. Even across all pro sports the amount of teams that don't have to go through some sort of rebulid ever 5-10 years is very small.

Whether or not your fans are pateient has no impact on how you develop prospects. Prospects get developed by organization, not fans. Also comparing patience level with a 34 years old goalie who has been in the NHL for 9 seasons and developing prospects it not even close to the same thing.

Agreed. I think Treliving must have been pre warned by Burke. I know Burke has mentioend a few times he thinks fans in Calgary got oversold on their prospects and he seemed to make a point of trying to keep expectations in check and now Treliving is following suit. Really nice to see because not only does it sucks for fans it can mess with a prospect as we saw with Baertschi.

I think at this point I have a hard time seeing how you are going to change the value of Jonus Hiller in a week. He is a veteran, he's been around the league and teams have seen him play mor than enough recently to know where he is in regards to his game. If a team wants to acquire him I think they have already decided that and decided how much they are willing to give up to get him and I don't think that changes a week out from the deadline.

to a point yes, but also keep in mind Hamilton only has 256 GP in the NHL. This is part of the point I am trying to make is that people act like Hamilton is a veteran and forget that he is not. 22 year old dman with less than 300 GPs at the NHL level are going to make mistakes but right now I think you are seeing that his upside offensivly is outweighing the mistakes he is making. It look much worse that it was because the puck went in which is my point about goaltending. I think the play itself was a bad read but bad reads happen by dman all the time, even Gio/Brodie so I don't view it a as a huge error. He is more prone to them than Gio/Brodie of course (see Canuck game and his turnover to Virtanen) but they are correctable. I'll be more concerend as his grows and is still making the same mistakes then I am right now.

You do know that Hamilton is younger than both of them though right? Not a great play and a mis read for sure. Hamilton went to play the body and underestimated the position and quickness of the Ducks player. Bad play, but a very, very ,very simple correction that I expect him to learn from. As bad a play as it was, it was equally as bad a save attempt by Hiller.

I get where you are gonig but I don't think this an over reaction at all. HIller has been trending down since about November last year. I thought HIller was great early last year and then ever since then he's been good, to ok, to bad so really I view this year as an extension of last year. Its not like Hiller's play suddenly fell off a cliff. Yes, every goalie has some AHL games in them but when they start to vastely outnumber the amount of NHL calibre games that becomes the new trend. HIller has had very few games this season where I would suggest he has been an NHL calibre goalie.

In regards to Dougie Hamilton look at what he has quietly accomplisehd this year: He is 34th in points for NHL dman. Thats 34th in the entire league. He is tied for 16th in Goals. Tied for 7th in GWG Post All-Star break he is tied for 13 in the League for Points. Tied for 7th in Goals he is 60th in TOI. When you factor in it took him just over a month to get comfortable and he only recently got heavy PP time, thats pretty remarkable IMO. He's got some warts defensivly for sure, but at 22 years old to accomplish that in his 4th season in the league and first with a new team is pretty awesome IMO.

I think the issue with goaltending extends beyond this, its not about making the playoffs anymore and iMO hasn't for a while its about giving your guys a chance. I beleive goaltending is like a QB in football in that if you have a bad one its almost like starting the game in a hole becuase everytime you get scored on it hurts becuase you know more is coming. You put extra pressure on yourself becuase you know you are going to need 3,4, maybe 5 goals to win a game becuase you just won't get a save at your end. I really don't want the mindset plaging guys like Hamilton, Bennett etc I want them thinking they can make the odd mistake and it won't wind up in their own net every single friggen time, like it is right now. Last night is a great example. Did Hamilton make a great play on the puck, no, but it wasn't a horrible play either. That's the time you want your goalie to help out your player so Hamilton doesn't suddenly start playing an ultra safe game becuase he doens't trust his goalie to make a save if he makes an error.

I think this is making excuses for HIller. Cold or not, there is no excuse for Hillers plays right now becuase its beyond terrible. He is not even playing an the calibre of an NHL goalie right now and there are plenty of NHL goalies that can sit for weeks at a time and stil play OK, clearly HIller is not one of them. If your point were true he should be getting better game after game and he is not. I would argue that he has shown zero improvement since the Pheonix game, its not a games played its a fact that Hiller is no longer an NHL goalie thing. I agree its not going to help them make the playoffs that ship has sailed but I also don't want the young kids having to play in front of terrible goaltending. Get to the point where you feel you can never make a mistake becuae it will wind up in your net and that IMO is dangerous from a development standpoint. I don't like Ortio either, but I agree they should no give him his 5 games or so and se what he can do. Really no value in playing HIller anymore.

Of season, unless you blew them away with an offer. Doesn't make any sense why Anaheim would trade him when they are looking like a contender again and then run with a rookie goalie on a playoff run. I think they would value that insurance more than the value thy got in trade. Not like his value will go down in the offseason.

While I agree Anderson is the best looking option, right now anyway, I'm not so sure its who the Flames should really go after. I don't think Anderson is a top tier goalie he is probably a slightly above average number 1 starter who is going to be expensive both to acquire and pay. If an unproven Martin Jones cost a first round pick what do you think a proven Anderson will go for? Cam Talbot just got 4 mill for half a season of work so I think Anderson is probably going to cost closer to 5 mill and may want term. If I'm wrong by all means try and acquire him, but at what I think he would cost in trade and actual $ I don't think he's worth it personally.

He took the team, some games on his back, and won an NCAA title. IMO, thats a pretty big step forward so I disgree we didn't show much development. I remember when they sent him back, Burke said they while he was playing well he wasn't putting a team on his back and winning them games and he wanted to see that. MIssion accommplisehd, IMO. and I don't think development has had any baring on the injury and neither does Gilles.

Term scares me more than dollars do in the cap world. I think you get into problem more by giving up too many years and not by giving out too many dollars. a 4 year deal for Reimer and I'd be scared that you'd be looking at an anchor of a deal in the last year or two. Id be willing to maybe stretch it to 4-4.5 range and keep it 3 years or less than go longer to bring the cap hit down. Goalies come and go far too often for me to be comfortable putting more than 3 years into someone I don't fully believe in.

With Ramo hurt he is clearly the best fa option available so I'm a bit worried about what it would take. Martin Jones had never been a starter and he got over 3 mill, talbot turned half a season of average caliber starting play into 4 million, Ramo with limited NHL experience got 3.8 and so on and so on. I'd keep the deal to 3 years or less personally I just don't like long term deals unless it's a legit starter and I'm not sure Reimer is that. If the flames could do a 2 or 3 year deal for less than 4 million I would be interested but I feel like him being th top fa on the market will mean he'll get more and I wouldn't do that. Reimer has good stats on a bad team but he is very inconsistent so handing him 50-60 games a year worries me.

I think the Flames knew right away Ramo was done for the year so whoever they were calling up was going to be here the rest of the way so waivers wouldn't have mattered. I think it's as simple as the flames have invested in Ortio so need to see what they've got and they have little invested in Poulin. I think we will see Ortio get some games.

Goaltending isn't the only thing but its the biggest IMO. I think with better than league average goaltending, Calgary wins the last 2 games. Last night was a great example of what i'm talking about. Botht he Zucker goal and the Pominville goals were not Hiller's fault but they are saves you want and need your goalie to make more often than not. Hiller was in poor position on both of them and couldn't make the save. Do I wish Nakladl didn't make the play at the blueline he did, yes. Do I wish Gaudreau and Frolik weren't so high and out of position on the Pominville goal, yes. Do I wish Englelland woudln't have tried to block that shot, yes. But having said all of that, Hiler should have been in position to make those saves and he wasn't on either. yes th eflames have issues defensivly, mostly with team defence not persee the "Defence", but any good team needs to be bailed out once in a while. This season the Flames just have not gotten the typ eof goaltneindg that bails them out so I think their problems have become magnified becuase every msitake is basicaly in their net. Doesn't help that their PK is garbage as well. The Flames on paper have a really strong top 3, better than avg top 4 and a below average 3rd pairing. I still contend the Flames D is very good but their 3rd pairing and support form forwrads needs work but if you don't have above average goaltending I don't care if you have 6 Bobby Orrs playing defence, you are going to struggle.

I also feel bad for Ramo. I think he's been solid the last few months and with it being such a bad looking UFA market this summer for goalies I think he would have garned interest but now he is likely going to only get 1 year "prove it" offers if he gets offers at all. ACL injuries heal and goalies can come back from it, but its a huge risk for an NHL team to take knowing that you won't get to see him play at all before you sign him. Real tough break and also takes away the Flames backup plan for goaltending this offseason. They are going to need to be aggressive to fill that spot.

As I said JJ I get others are going to disagree so that's fine. A couple of points that I would clarify. Just becuase I say that Flames are done rebuilding doesn't mean I think they need to be a contender tomorrow. I septerate teams into rebuilders, builders, contenders and pretenders. The rebuild is the deconstruction when you strip it down to its studs, find a core to build around and then start to build it back up. This is the state I think the Flames should be in and the different for me is that they shouldn't just be sitting around waiting for people to get better. They need to be aggressive in order to fills holes like they did with moves like Frolik/Hamilton. Rebuilding to me implies you sit back, collect your picks and wait for things to mature. Flames are past this IMO. You bring up Edmonton and that's a good example of why I don't agree you rebuild that long. Edmonton should have been done rebuilding years ago, but they remained so patient that they kept rebuilding year after year and shipping out NHL talent year afer year and then you are left with a young team that doens't know how to win and holes everywhere. You cannot just picks up tons of tons of prospects and let them mature together and then presto, start winning. I pefer the Chicago model where you draft and develop a new core and then aggresively go after pieces that can round out that core. Otherwise, how long do you want to 'rebuild" 5 years? 7 years? Big different two between Edmonton and Calgary is Edmonton doesn't have a blueline and Flames do. If the Flames were as unbalanced as the Oilers are I would probably not suggest they are done rebuilding. To have a Core you can build with, it needs to be balanced and the Flames have that. Another issue for me is you've got 2 elite bluleliners that you can't wait on. Gio has maybe 3/4 prime years left and Brodie has 4 more years left on a steal of a deal. When you combine that with new analytics that show the prime of an Nhlers career is 25-29 I dont want to keep waiting for another 3-4 years. Get aggressive, so long as its not detrimental to sustainted future success. I'm not, and never have, suggesting that the Flames empty the cupboards and deal everyone to get better now but they also shoudn't have to. You can make smart hockey trades tha tmake you better now, without sacrificing future. IN terms of goaltending you and I will never agree on this becuase you view Ortio as a legit NHL prospect and I don't. So yes I fully supported Ramo being re signed, wasn't crazy about signign HIller as I recal but I don't think the Flames have missed the boat on Ortio either. I do happen to believe, that had the Flames had above league avg goaltending this year we are having a very different conversation because they likely are in or very close to a playoff spot. I would estimate, that poor goaltending has cost them at least 8 points in the standing so part of our disagreement is I don't think they are as far away as you seem to. That's another reason I don't like using the term rebulding, but agian that doesn' tmean I think they need to contend tomorrow but I also don't want to see them just sitting back and waiting. I believe that fails organizations far more than it succeeds.

Ramo had about a month of playing at .920 save percentage, but if you exclude the first month or so he sit at about .918 or so which is league average. The Flames as a team are below .900 so you cant say its just because of the first month or so. The fact is the Flames, for outside of a month, have not gotten anything more than league average goaltending and far more than often get below average goaltender. I don't care if you have the best D core in the world in front of a below avg goalie you are not going to win games. I get there are issues, but I don't even think you need stats to show that the Flames have gotten pretty bad goaltending this season you just have to watch and see that they just don't get key saves at all. YOu can bring in all the defenders you want but your goalie needs to give you a chance to win every night and I would say for the most part this season, Flames have not gotten that out of their goalies.

It would take a pretty unprecedent summer for Smith to factor into the NHL next season. He's not scoring at the AHL level and from what i've read the reviews are mixed on how well he has played. AHL rookies so i'm not concerned but thinking he can made the jump to the NHL would take a very, very , very rare growth trajectory. He's at least 2 years away IMO.

I've never understood this point of view at all. A good goalie does not hide flaws it just bails you out from time to time which IMO is exaclty what you want. Do you really want the puck to wind up in the net every time the Flames make a mistake so they can learn from it? Like a coach and players don't know there are issues unless you have such bad goaltending that just about every mistake winds up in your net? The Flames are dead last in save percentage in the NHL and have no goalies in the top 30 in save %. Goaltending without question is the number 1 issue plaguing this team right now and personally, I don't think its close. You are completely sunk in the NHL if you can't get a save now and then and the Flames just don't get that this year. Ramo was decent for 2 months but early season Ramo and Hiller have been atrocious. You can't win consistantly with goaltending like that.

Flames are done rebuilding IMO. They have their core, are about to sign it and will get another top 10 pick this year. They need to start winning, not trying to throw darts at dartboards trying to find a goalie that might help them in 3, 4 or 5 years. I'm not saying pick up any goalie, but they need to be aggressive in finding an answer now and then keep developing Gilles/McDonald etc in behind them All you have to do it look up north at Edmonton and see what happens when you keep rebuilding every year and also what happens when you have crappy goaltending. Don't let your franchise learn how to lose EVER Edit: When I say done their rebuild its because to me you are rebuilding when you are shipping out assets and trying to build a Core. I think the Flames have built their core, will add another top 10 pick, and now just need assets to fill that out. That's not rebuilding IMO, but I get others may have a different definition.