cross16

Can we please stop with this off the board nonsense? I completely understand if you didn't like the Honzek pick, really do. It was an underwhelming pick for me too and it's fair to want other players. Scouting is based on subjective opinions after all. But to complain that the Flames went off the board is just such a wrong and tired debate. For reference, Mckenzie had him 19, Corey Pronman had him 12th, Elite prospects 15th. Yes some had him in the 20s too but that's scouting and the draft for you there is no such thing as consensus scouting and ranking. I don't find it valuable at all to try and put down draft picks by comparing them to a non existent board, it's not fair IMO. I think it's far more productive to question whether or not the Flames have the right scouting criteria or values when it comes to the draft, instead of suggesting they should stick to some non existent board.

I think that's what makes it interesting. Players don't want Sullivan to go but Dubas does and I don't think the Pens owners want to see Crosby leave, nor do they want to see a rebuild right now. And if your Sullivan do you want to leave? Your right a coach almost never wins this once, let alone twice. Sullivan is a really good coach though, at least IMO.

Personally I just prefer the old format. I think it set up for better matches later and you got more upsets. I wouldn't point at the format as a reason the Canes haven't gotten further.

With the Leafs firing Keefe and opening up that job, which despite all the Leafs hate is one of the more attractive jobs in the NHL, this could wind up being a crazy summer on the hiring front. For the record I don't think Keefe is that good a coach so I think the Leafs made the right call. There are currently 5 open positions and 1 Interim coach in LA who has not been confirmed. To keep the gossip levels high, Rob Brind'Amour's contract is up at the end of this year. While the speculation is he'll stay does a sweep change that? Jon Cooper only has 1 more year left on his deal. There are rumblings that Dubas wants Sullivan out in Pittsburgh, but doesn't want to fire him. Could we see a swap of coaches there? Keefe to Pitts and Sullivan to TO? Could be interesting

Yup and personally I'd go back to that format.

I agree. I do think the Canes are still a little too quantity or quality for the playoffs and would probably benefit from some adjustments. But at the end of the day still got to beat Shesterkin and he's on top of his game right now. Feel for the Canes though. I do think that is a good hockey team that just cannot seem to catch a break when it comes to the playoffs.

Yup I hear you, its all a good and fun debate. I think the last sentence here is what i'm getting at in a nutshell with Lindstrom. Is that combo there or do you want it to be there? I think with Lindstrom people want it to be there but i'm not sure it is which is why I think you see him all over different draft boards rights now. I'm in agree on speed. Speed and skill for me are the priorities. Of course if you can get that with a player who brings size and physicality then score, but I'm not wiling to put size ahead of those 2 things. I do agree that I think Conroy values size more than Treliving did so see if that continues.

I'd personally be more cautious scouting off highlight videos but that's just me. From what i've seen I don't think his talent and numbers warrant a top 5 pick. Maybe 10 yes but that's where the injuries come into play. IMO he's a pick more based on projection that what he has done/is now because I dont' see the level of offence in relation to other players available in the top 10. I think he's in the top 10 more based on what teams think he can. Teams are alwas looking for size down the middle so if you can get size plus any amount of skill I think it creates a situation where you are reaching. It's just not the direction I would prefer to go.

Agreed if true but also i'm not seeing the logic here. Minnesota needs players like Rossi.

Lindstrom gives me big=good vibes. I'm not going to deny he is talented, he for sure is. Does his talent match a top 10 pick? I'm not so sure myself. Reminds me a lot of Micheal Rasmussen. Not a bad player to have and size down the middle is something all teams are looking for so I get it but it's not the direction i'd go, especially when you consider injuries.

Back in the day I was a big fan of unique stadiums and i would have advocated for unique designs. Stuff like the LA Forum, MSG, Saddledome, Maple Leaf Gardens etc were all really, really cool. Now it's expensive enough as it is to build these dman things, just keep the exterior bland and put the money on the inside. but I do miss the iconic designs we use to get

I still think Dallas is right there and it will be a good series but boy oh boy is Colorado just humming right now. They might look better now then they did in their cup run. If Georgiev can give them even average goaltending it's going to be very tough to beat them playing like this.

Wasn't a leak. Order in the photo was not what it wound up being.

9th it is Also Utah did not move up. Order does not change based on the pre draft lottery odds. No one moved up or down.

They haven't actually completed the draw yet, at least according to their own timeline. sounds like that is a rehearsal board.

I've said multiple times the Flames should be doing things differently. The Flames are a small market club and they should act like it. Focus on the draft, always be in pick acquisition mode and don't get attached to players as they get later in their career. Don't spend big in UFA. I hope they learn and grow i'm just very skeptical it's going to happen because I don't think the direction is changing. Hope to be wrong.

Pro scouting is the area that does not come up enough IMO when it comes to talking about the future. If we want to discuss what lessons the Flames are/are not learning from the past their pro scouting should be high up on that list. I'm not willing to give them credit for Sharangovich that's a matter of opportunity not good pro scouting, as is Kuzmenko. Now if i'm wrong on Miromanov then not were talking but let's see. for sure an area that needs to be improved. Okhotiuk is not giving me confidence that they've improved in this area but let's see. There were a lot of picks spent no question and in some cases it's frustration. I don't mind the Jankork, Toffoli, Carpenter trades but ya when your spending picks on rentals to barely get into the playoffs that isn't good. When you spending a 2nd round pick on a goalie who you probably should have done more digging on to fit into your organization, only to lose him for nothing 1 year later that isn't good. That goes back to the situation though, if your building to win you need to get assets and assets cost you picks.

They are the number one team in the NHL since the changed coaches. I hate the Oilers and will be actively rooting against them but don't think pointing out that they have some elements of a good team means i'm jumping on the bandwagon.

As i've been saying circumstances. The first arena deal was never finalized to the level this one is (there was a final out clause and COVID was happening right in the middle of it) but the organization looked quite different. Tkachuk, Gaudreau, Lindholm, Monahan, Anderson, Hanifin all 26 or less. You can have the argument that they bet too much on that core but to pull that down and start a rebuild I don't think any logically or sane organization was doing that. That isn't the case this go around where they core of the team is all at the tail end or past their prime. Big change in circumstances. Actually it's not it's a discussion around how circumstances matter. As I pointed out when Treliving got the job he was in pick acquisition mode. he did the same things Conroy is doing right now. As I said above if you want to levy critique on Treliving is that IMO he bet on the wrong players. I personally would argue that's hindsight bias but I could see that discussion, that he did too much to build around Gaudreau Monahan, Tkachuk. The "he's a short term thinker" is IMO product of the circumstances.

He's never publicly said this implicitly no. I do believe that ownership did relax on the win every year because of the new arena (just like they put pressure on Treliving in his last summer to not rebuild in order to get the deal done) but I don't thikn this is as implicit as you make it sound. but either way to answer your question, yes I do believe the owners did relax their perspective once the got the deal done but it should also be pointed out that a lot of this is being driven by the players saying no to them to. I also think this is a lot of semantics. I don't believe the mandate here is win every year or playoffs every year. I do think there is an understanding of if you miss the playoffs, ok that happens but how do we get back in next year? The idea that this club can spend 2 or more years out of the playoffs is where the mandate starts IMO. I think the new arena changes that slightly be we are talking about the allowance of essentially 1 extra year (especially when you consider their goal was playoffs this year). If we want to call that a rebuild fine but I woudln't. I'm in management and I push back all the time but did you work for Murray Edwards? I know I haven't but i know people who have. time will tell but i'm not seeing the changes you are and the ones I am, dealing players for picks, is being dictated by the players and not the club. I am 100% of the belief that the Flames put big deals on the table for both Lindholm and Hanifin and the players said no. They wanted both here gave them market value deal to try and keep them and ultimately the players said no. Hard for me to suggest change is a foot when the behavior is consistent.

McKenzie's Updated rankings. Wroth pointing out his are rankings based on polling of a selections of scouts and are an attempt to get a consensus of what league is thinking. I say because as he notes in his article he's never seen such a lack of consensus as he is this year. I like his conclusion though, I don't think it speaks to quality of prospects but more so the talent different is less so it's going to come down to what do the clubs want and what do they value. Iginla still not ranked above the Flames pick at 9. https://www.tsn.ca/nhl/bob-mckenzie-s-nhl-draft-ranking-an-unpredictable-ride-after-macklin-celebrini-1.2116004

I wouldn't say discounting but rather looking at current more than past. It's a factor but it should be pointed out that 3 of those wins came early in the season when Woodcroft was the coach and the last one came when McDavid didn't play. Doesn't' feel super relevant to me other than i do think the Canucks can keep the games close which is why while yes I expect the Oilers to win I don't think it's going to be easy. Think it will go 6 or 7 games.

I've never discounted the short term thinking and for sure I'm frustrated about it. I was frustrated when Sutter did it, I was frustrated with Feaster did it, was frustrated when Treliving did it (albeit yes a little less so because at least I thought he had some pieces worth betting on) and now i'm frustrated to hear/see Conroy do it too. I don't like hearing about the Dallas model, didn't like that he didn't deal Markstrom and didn't like that they went into the season talking playoffs. Not gonna hide from that at all because its the truth, but it's more true of the organization then it is the GMs. Difference between you and I is you seem to really like to make this personal towards the GMs themselves. Treliving was the short term thinker and reckless with picks whereas I look at the environment and the mandate. The Flames did not hire Treliving to oversee a patient rebuild and nor did the leafs so why be surprised the behavior is different? In the first year on the job Treliving acquired multiple draft picks and came very close to adding 2 more 1st rounders in the 2014 draft until the clubs balked at the deal (mostly due to who was available to them). So this idea that he has this reckless mindset isn't really there and the behavior is consistent with the mandate and the environment .

Very fair. I understood it and probably would have done it myself but the counter argument is very valid. The Riely one felt to me like they knew they wre overpaying but felt they had to keep him because he was their defacto number 1 d. Think they fell into that trap but that was Dubas for you. He sure isn't making friends fast in Pittsburgh.

No frustration from me i just don't get it especially when (as this post shows) there is usually little logic behind it and rather some weird conspiracy style bulletin board rationale. Someone not getting a dman taken 12 picks ahead of their draft spot is the GMs fault which is weird but i'm sure you'll connect the dots for me in some post that also makes no sense. As I've said for multiple years now if you want to lay this on the feet of the GM and ignore the pattern that is the Flames organization, go nuts if that is what makes you feel better. I'm sure you said the same thing about Sutter, the GM, and i'm sure you'll say it about Conroy soon enough too because I don't think the Flames (or really any organization for that matter) are capable of hiring a GM that will meet your approval. If you want to talk about what lessons you want the Org to learn or do differently I'd be here for that discussion but linking it all back to Treliving (especially when didn't do any of the complaints you have differently from the last several GMs) is where it makes no sense IMO.